Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

[Bebop]

I always wondered why 50deg was such a magic number for crawling.

It's not.
Just the max of what's available on the market now.
Spidertrax used to make 60 degrees knuckles. I've asked, many people have asked, they're not bringing them back.
The more the better.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Some of the Formula Offroad guys build their own knuckles around double jointed axle shafts. From what I've gathered some of those double ujoint configs can get to 60* or more. So the tech is out there, people just need to decide it's worthwhile here in the states.

You guys wanna go down that TTB path, tell me why there hasn't been a TTB with camber control yet lol. I'm pretty sure it's physically possible (but challenging) to package a UCA...

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

You guys wanna go down that TTB path, tell me why there hasn't been a TTB with camber control yet lol. I'm pretty sure it's physically possible (but challenging) to package a UCA...

Isn't that what this is....

 

[chaplinfj60]

and boy can they turn on a dime. wow

 

[Jeffh555]

Maybe it's semantics, but IMO if there's camber control, then it isn't TTB. It's IFS (or IRS) with the diff mounted to the lower arm.

I think it's doable, but you'd have to have the motor slammed way back to make room for everything.

 

[Bebop]

Some of the Formula Offroad guys build their own knuckles around double jointed axle shafts. From what I've gathered some of those double ujoint configs can get to 60* or more. So the tech is out there, people just need to decide it's worthwhile here in the states.

You guys wanna go down that TTB path, tell me why there hasn't been a TTB with camber control yet lol. I'm pretty sure it's physically possible (but challenging) to package a UCA...

Have you looked at the scrub radius of this contraption ?

I wouldn't want to turn at 40mph with that

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Isn't that what this is....

https://irate4x4.com/attachments/irsjoethompsonsplit-jpg.647734/

That's just IRS in my opinion. Sure it looks weird because the pumpkin is on a LCA, but with the center mounted pivots, all the geometry leads to it being independent imo. If the pivots crossed each other and the center joint was floating instead of stationary, I think it would fit the "TTB" name

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Have you looked at the scrub radius of this contraption ?

I wouldn't want to turn at 40mph with that

That is just showing the double jointed configuration. With a high backspaced wheel I think it's completely reasonable to reduce the scrub radius. But then again, some IFS cars have pretty wicked scrub radii too

 

[posford]

Some of the Formula Offroad guys build their own knuckles around double jointed axle shafts. From what I've gathered some of those double ujoint configs can get to 60* or more. So the tech is out there, people just need to decide it's worthwhile here in the states.

You guys wanna go down that TTB path, tell me why there hasn't been a TTB with camber control yet lol. I'm pretty sure it's physically possible (but challenging) to package a UCA...

Farm tractors are like that. Our JD 6430 has double cardan front axle shafts

https://andersontractorinc.com/product/new-o-e-m-john-deere-mfwd-driveshaft-assy-al209948/

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

That's just IRS in my opinion. Sure it looks weird because the pumpkin is on a LCA, but with the center mounted pivots, all the geometry leads to it being independent imo. If the pivots crossed each other and the center joint was floating instead of stationary, I think it would fit the "TTB" name

Isn't the only reason a TTB has crossed pivot points is to keep camber gain in check (sort of) within the travel of the beam? Use something else to control camber gain, like an upper control arm, and there is no need for the arms to cross paths and be longer than necessary IMO.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Isn't the only reason a TTB has crossed pivot points is to keep camber gain in check (sort of) within the travel of the beam? Use something else to control camber gain, like an upper control arm, and there is no need for the arms to cross paths and be longer than necessary IMO.

That could be why they did it, along with minimizing the change in track width. But it looks like we just define independent and TTB differently.

To me, TTB always means whoop scissors, the beams always criss cross on the chassis. Then independent suspension to me is where the pivot points don't cross chassis center line. Someone could definitely have a better interpretation, that's just the generalization my mind always makes.

 

[posford]

TTB is a Ford term for that style of IFS. Stepside versus Flareside sorta deal

 

[Jeffh555]

TTB Patent if you really want to nerd out on this:

US3948337A - Independent front suspension for front wheel drive - Google Patents

This invention relates to an independent suspension system for the front steerable wheels of a motor vehicle having front wheel drive. The suspension for one of the wheels includes a transverse suspension arm and a longitudinal radius arm that are rigidly interconnected. The suspension for the...

patents.google.com

 

[JR4X]

I know it was brought up several pages ago but I want to get back in topic in the 2/3 3/4 size car talk if we may.

First let’s talk weights, when the number 1 enemy is gravity every pound you carry is giving an advantage to the enemy. Bailey Campbell’s 2 seat car weighs in at almost 6,000 pounds leaving the starting line. I think the boys 2 seaters are 500 pounds less than that.

Why is a CanAm on 35’s able kick the shit out of a 4400 car in the rocks and still be reliable. Because it weighs less than half of what the current 4400’s do. I know of one single seat 4400 car that leaving the start line is #4100 pounds and thats Jordan Townsends car. We’ve seen some people try to build 2/3 or 3/4 scale cars but it hasn’t been the kind of builder with FU money that can execute on par with a top 4400 build. I’m also in that camp. If I were to attempt a 3/4 size 4400 car it wouldn’t be at the level of any of the top 30 or so 4400’s out there now.

But still I’d like to entertain the thought. I raced a 2 seat rzr for a few seasons and I loved that light little SOB. It is a lot more capable than I thought it was going to be. The problem is it’s far more fragile than I thought it was going to be. It’s so light and cushy that you cannot tell that the pace you are running is doing damage to it. Everything feels fine until something is broken badly. I never had belt issues with it, it was always steering and suspension breakage. If you’re good on the gas/brake pedals it will crawl or climb it’s way over stuff I wouldn’t have that a golf cart could.

So what is the mid ground. Think of every single component that you could lose weight with and what horsepower would you need to make a IFS/IRS 3500# car keep up with a 1000 hp 5000# car. Get rid of the CVT and use a smaller lighter engine/auto/t-case. Next to a powerglide or TH400 a C4 is about the second most supported trans with aftermarket cases, small light and capable of processing a ton of horsepower with less parasitic loss than a TH400. A little turbo’d direct injection 4 cyl paired with a built C4 is probably several hundred pounds less than a LS/TH400. If your not packing the weight or the 1000 horse can you get away with smaller unit bearings, 35 spline shafts and 37’s again if the vehicles footprint is say 80 ish inches wide with a 100” to 105” wheelbase. My rzr is 80 inches wide, 94” wheelbase and has 18” of front wheel travel with 22” of rear wheel travel, on 35’s at 2000 pounds is pretty well balanced if it was only stronger than glass.

 

[arse_sidewards]

for the record i was being snarky. TTB is not a competitive platform for unlimited rock racing. i like TTB and it has its place but yea, not 4400

If IFS is competivie and solid axle is competivie then TTB should be competitive if you throw the same money at it which nobody does because the amount of time and money you'd have into making it work can be just spent on IFS.

You guys wanna go down that TTB path, tell me why there hasn't been a TTB with camber control yet lol. I'm pretty sure it's physically possible (but challenging) to package a UCA...

Because the whole point of TTB is to be 90% of a traditional A-arm but cheaper/easier and with better packaging. You don't realy need great camber at full droop because you have no traction there and the camber is overkill but not bad at full compression so everyone just calls it good enough. Trying to make it perfect would negate the cost/simplicity advantages.

 

[arse_sidewards]

So what is the mid ground. Think of every single component that you could lose weight with and what horsepower would you need to make a IFS/IRS 3500# car keep up with a 1000 hp 5000# car. Get rid of the CVT and use a smaller lighter engine/auto/t-case. Next to a powerglide or TH400 a C4 is about the second most supported trans with aftermarket cases, small light and capable of processing a ton of horsepower with less parasitic loss than a TH400. A little turbo’d direct injection 4 cyl paired with a built C4 is probably several hundred pounds less than a LS/TH400. If your not packing the weight or the 1000 horse can you get away with smaller unit bearings, 35 spline shafts and 37’s again if the vehicles footprint is say 80 ish inches wide with a 100” to 105” wheelbase. My rzr is 80 inches wide, 94” wheelbase and has 18” of front wheel travel with 22” of rear wheel travel, on 35’s at 2000 pounds is pretty well balanced if it was only stronger than glass.

There's a whole world of PWC, large motorcycle and outboard marine engines that have very high power to weight and exist in the sizes between SxS stuff and automotive stuff.

You can make a C4 adapter for anything if you want to.

 

[JR4X]

There's a whole world of PWC, large motorcycle and outboard marine engines that have very high power to weight and exist in the sizes between SxS stuff and automotive stuff.

You can make a C4 adapter for anything if you want to.

Exactly

 

[Tech Tim]

I find the utv swarm super annoying like a cloud of mosquitoes Why dump 30k on an ifs suspension when you can just buy a turnkey utv and DOMINATE the fire roads

My long travel Toyota IFS only cost around $5K. To be fair, I was only running 35s (wouldn't be fine with 37s too), not the 40s or 43s that some people think you need to have to call it wheeling.

For the bigger tire people you could easily scale up the one ton Chevy stuff and have something very trail ready.

Every time you guys mention TTB you take a min off of Tech Tim life. I picture Tim with one eye twitching as he reads talk about whoop scissors.

I don't hate TTB, I just think that the amount of effort people put into TTB to make it work halfway decent could be put into an IFS and they'd have something that actually works good.

I love that Joe Thompson has kind of adapted a version of it to the UFO cars, but I wouldn't really call what he is doing a TTB.

I agree, I still think there is still more to be had with SA tech. Especially with shock travel. Ive been messing around with some ideas to get a good clean reliable solution for 22-24" travel up front to match closer to the rear on a buggy I hope to be building soon. I think there can be a better solution than massive shocks or leading arms with crows nests sticking a foot above the hood line.

Are you talking 22-24" of travel or articulation?

I agree with the third member. I was surprised it took someone like tubeworks as long as it did to come out with another option. But it is not geared toward the average rec wheelers at that price point. Your only real options on a HP dropout is gearworks and HI9 or Toyota correct?

I'm surprised no one has come out with more options for other 3rd members.

Torq was so close to having something really good, too bad Jim Jackson had to go and F it all up.

The problem with the 9"/10" solutions on the market today is they still run the same ID as the old school 9" ring gear, so they are limited to the diff size. No problem if you are running a spool., but if you want to run a selectable locker, the gears are pretty damn small in there.
ARB has done a great job with their competition model lockers, but all that comes at a big price.

If you want to look overseas, the Nissan H233B is a great one too. Cheap cheap and very strong for what it is. 35sp spools and ARBs are available. But still not as strong as a 10" of course.

Yes! The Nissan H223B is a strong axle for its size, too bad they never built a high pinion version of it.

for the record i was being snarky. TTB is not a competitive platform for unlimited rock racing. i like TTB and it has its place but yea, not 4400

I'm with Chris, TTB has it's place.... and 4400 isn't it.

It belongs under an old Ford in class 7 (or whichever desert class is ruled by TTB).

 

[Bebop]

I know it was brought up several pages ago but I want to get back in topic in the 2/3 3/4 size car talk if we may.

First let’s talk weights, when the number 1 enemy is gravity every pound you carry is giving an advantage to the enemy. Bailey Campbell’s 2 seat car weighs in at almost 6,000 pounds leaving the starting line. I think the boys 2 seaters are 500 pounds less than that.

Why is a CanAm on 35’s able kick the shit out of a 4400 car in the rocks and still be reliable. Because it weighs less than half of what the current 4400’s do. I know of one single seat 4400 car that leaving the start line is #4100 pounds and thats Jordan Townsends car. We’ve seen some people try to build 2/3 or 3/4 scale cars but it hasn’t been the kind of builder with FU money that can execute on par with a top 4400 build. I’m also in that camp. If I were to attempt a 3/4 size 4400 car it wouldn’t be at the level of any of the top 30 or so 4400’s out there now.

But still I’d like to entertain the thought. I raced a 2 seat rzr for a few seasons and I loved that light little SOB. It is a lot more capable than I thought it was going to be. The problem is it’s far more fragile than I thought it was going to be. It’s so light and cushy that you cannot tell that the pace you are running is doing damage to it. Everything feels fine until something is broken badly. I never had belt issues with it, it was always steering and suspension breakage. If you’re good on the gas/brake pedals it will crawl or climb it’s way over stuff I wouldn’t have that a golf cart could.

So what is the mid ground. Think of every single component that you could lose weight with and what horsepower would you need to make a IFS/IRS 3500# car keep up with a 1000 hp 5000# car. Get rid of the CVT and use a smaller lighter engine/auto/t-case. Next to a powerglide or TH400 a C4 is about the second most supported trans with aftermarket cases, small light and capable of processing a ton of horsepower with less parasitic loss than a TH400. A little turbo’d direct injection 4 cyl paired with a built C4 is probably several hundred pounds less than a LS/TH400. If your not packing the weight or the 1000 horse can you get away with smaller unit bearings, 35 spline shafts and 37’s again if the vehicles footprint is say 80 ish inches wide with a 100” to 105” wheelbase. My rzr is 80 inches wide, 94” wheelbase and has 18” of front wheel travel with 22” of rear wheel travel, on 35’s at 2000 pounds is pretty well balanced if it was only stronger than glass.

Don't ask for better pictures cause I don't have any.
The owner is very secretive. No social media etc.

But small IFS/IRS buggies are a thing in France.

This one has a full Golf GTI drivetrain with transaxle DSG gearbox. 37" treps for size.

This one is simpler but equality as badass

38" treps for size.

Both buggies use Mitsubishi Montero rear diffs, CVs and front unit bearings. They hold good to 250ish HP and 37" tires.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Don't ask for better pictures cause I don't have any.
the owner is very secretive. No social medial etc.

But small IFS/IRS buggies are a thing in France.

This one has a full Golf GTI drivetrain with transaxle DSG gearbox. 37" treps for size.

This one is simpler but equality as badass

38" treps for size.

Both buggies use Mitsubishi Montero rear diffs, CVs and front unit bearings. They hold good to 250ish HP and 37" tires.

Those are

 

[Bebop]

Yes! The Nissan H223B is a strong axle for its size, too bad they never built a high pinion version of it.

Let me blow your mind :

You can get these for 200 buck all day in Europe. Take the same diff as the LP version.

I haven't heard of people blowing them up very often. They are pretty strong. But no third pinion bearing. R&P is 9.1" in diam vs the 9.5" for LP version.

 

[JR4X]

Don't ask for better pictures cause I don't have any.
the owner is very secretive. No social medial etc.

But small IFS/IRS buggies are a thing in France.

Those things are bad ass. Nice find, that’s pretty much what I had in mind.

 

[mobil1syn]

why is everything you countrymen build so ugly Bebop ?

 

[Bebop]

Those things are bad ass. Nice find, that’s pretty much what I had in mind.

I do have contacts and can ask questions, if you want to know anything specific, let me know.

I just know, for a fact, they cost more and side by sides and still get blown out when racing.

The owner / chassis builder just likes doing his thing.

He built about 10 variations of it. The RZR looking one is the latest. You can see the arms have a slot for an upgrade with bypasses.
I know they're having issues with the DSG trans and offroad use. The brain is often lost. They were talking about swapping a stick shift back in.

Nobody likes autos in Europe.

 

[Slander]

Let me blow your mind :

You can get these for 200 buck all day in Europe. Take the same diff as the LP version.

I haven't heard of people blowing them up very often. They are pretty strong. But no third pinion bearing. R&P is 9.1" in diam vs the 9.5" for LP version.

So that's basically a Nissan version of the fj80 axle but with a 9" diff?


I just want to say I have no desire to ever compete, and I'm too cheap to ever buy any of these parts, but this thread has been an awesome read!

 

[Bebop]

why is everything you countrymen build so ugly Bebop ?

It's well known that french people have no sense of style.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Plain and simple...... Looks don't win races.

 

[Bebop]

So that's basically a Nissan version of the fj80 axle but with a 9" diff?

Yes.
Everyone ditches yota axles to put these in since the yota 8" platform sucks ass.

Problem is, you're still limited to the same CV and outer shaft size as yota 80 series. So the diffs and shafts hold, the CVs break.

Those axles are super popular in Australia too.

 

[JR4X]

I do have contacts and can ask questions, if you want to know anything specific, let me know.

I’m committed to this 4600 thing for 3 to 5 years now. But theoretically at the end of that I’m going to be freeing up a 350 hp stand-alone direct injected 2.3 ecoboost. And pair of 74 weld portals that should be put to good use.

 

[chaplinfj60]

oh they have style, they are just so far ahead of ours we think they dont... but there is style..