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French Tickler Buggy

chaplinfj60 said:
i missed it,
but tossing this out there. since the engine rad is out back, why not put your power steering coolers up front or did that space get used up?
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I don't know how to route the plumbing there properly.
Also, that space is getting used.
 
mobil1syn said:
maybe you should ask your steering guy what fluid and temp is acceptable instead of the internet.
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Na. Ask the innerwebs first and then tell the expert he’s wrong according to the Googles. That’s the way Al Gore intended it to be when he created the innernets in his parents attic. :lmao:
 
ridered3 said:
Na. Ask the innerwebs first and then tell the expert he’s wrong according to the Googles. That’s the way Al Gore intended it to be when he created the innernets in his parents attic. :lmao:
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Hey now !

:laughing:
 
mobil1syn said:
maybe you should ask your steering guy what fluid and temp is acceptable instead of the internet.
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You would be amazed how many people in the steering industry don’t understand oil cooling.
The trans and steering cooler tech thread covers a good amount of it.
Sensor location plays a big part if you’re are talking about fan on temps VS oil entering pump temp.
 
Ideal power steering should be 85*F-155*F, that is specified by Parker for general hydraulic systems. Racers that normally see 300* would be happy to see 180*. Ideally you don't want the fan to run all the time and let the cooler radiate some heat off before the fan kicks on.

Normally you want the fan sensor to see the hottest source so it reacts as soon as possible and shuts off as soon as the heat has dropped. Eliminates cooling lag.
The temp sensor in the reservoir lets you know that the cooler is getting the oil to a temp that you want to feed the system with. It will not tell you how hot it is in the pump or passing over a relief valve or through other restrictions.
 
a few ideas, go big and combine all the cooling into a single package short course style.

1695327671345.png



1695327761976.png
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
You would be amazed how many people in the steering industry don’t understand oil cooling.
The trans and steering cooler tech thread covers a good amount of it.
Sensor location plays a big part if you’re are talking about fan on temps VS oil entering pump temp.
Click to expand...

i was being slightly snarky since he is working with radial dynamics
 
Earth-moving equipment hydraulic systems give a level 1 warning just under 200*F but they are large capacity systems that create lots of heat.

What is the estimated steering system oil capacity in the buggy? 3 gallons ?
A 9 gpm pump will cycle the system oil 3 times a minute. Obviously at higher the pressure there would be less flow but more heat.
 
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HYDRODYNAMIC said:
Ideal power steering should be 85*F-155*F, that is specified by Parker for general hydraulic systems. Racers that normally see 300* would be happy to see 180*. Ideally you don't want the fan to run all the time and let the cooler radiate some heat off before the fan kicks on.

Normally you want the fan sensor to see the hottest source so it reacts as soon as possible and shuts off as soon as the heat has dropped. Eliminates cooling lag.
The temp sensor in the reservoir lets you know that the cooler is getting the oil to a temp that you want to feed the system with. It will not tell you how hot it is in the pump or passing over a relief valve or through other restrictions.
Click to expand...

Thoughts on adding a thermostat before the cooler? I can easily find something that keeps fluid around 140/160 and will accept the 11gpm flow.
The relief is integrated in the orbital so it sends all the fluid towards the radiator. Not a problem there.

mobil1syn said:
a few ideas, go big and combine all the cooling into a single package short course style.

1695327671345.png



1695327761976.png
Click to expand...
Yes, those are awesome and good inspiration.

RustyC said:
Earth-moving equipment hydraulic systems give a level 1 warning just under 200*F but they are large capacity systems that create lots of heat.

What is the estimated steering system oil capacity in the buggy? 3 gallons ?
A 9 gpm pump will cycle the system oil 3 times a minute. Obviously at higher the pressure there would be less flow but more heat.
Click to expand...
Usually those big equipment don’t use vane pumps and are less sensitive I think.

There’s gonna be a lot of fluid in this system but I think your numbers are probably in the ballpark.
 
A bit late to the party, but as someone with a radiator and trans cooler mounted behind the seats that are full of dented fins caused by throwing the harness buckle over my shoulder, I am a big fan of your earlier sketch showing the mesh panels in front of the radiator :laughing:
 
General steering temps, I like to see 120F to 180F as a normal and reasonable range. This puts most of the common fluids in a good viscosity range for use from low to high RPM. Industrial hydraulic temps are typically on the lower end to maintain higher viscosity, less internal leakage, and therefore better volumetric efficiency but industrial pumps don't see the operational speed range that a performance steering pump will experience.

Too cold (I would consider less than 80F), and the higher fluid viscosity will lead to more cavitation at high RPM and quicker pump wear. Now as for upper limits, the maximum peak that any of my teams hit is in the 210 to 215 range and that's with RDT or TT (cast iron/flow regulated) pumps running wide open for sustained periods in a high end Ultra4 or Trophy Truck. In a race like KOH, the average temp is 180 to 200 except for the occasional peaks. With a non-regulated billet TT pump in an identical system, steering temps peaking in the high 200's are common and I attribute that to a combination of increased cavitation and frictional losses throughout the hydraulic circuit.

A good fluid will last a race no problem although these teams are performing a lot more preventative maintenance, getting pumps serviced and flushing fluid on a regular basis, so being in the low 200's isn't of much concern. For your average weekend wheeler, I like to stick around 180F as a max although an occasional rise to 200 is still not overly concerning. For reference, Maxima Synthetic PSF has become my fluid of choice after seeing it work superior to other fluids in cold winter climates and in the 200+ degree racing applications.

On a flow-regulated TT pump like @bepop is using, even with copious amounts of throttle, I would have no concern running one or two of my finned tube "heat sink" style coolers wherever there is room to fit them in as I have podium placing 4400 teams doing this exactly. If someone can easily fit a higher efficiency cooler with a fan on it and wants to go that route, I will never stop them but I would say that it is not worth stressing over if plumbing and packaging will be that difficult compared to fitting two passive, and very robust, heat sink style coolers on the front of the car.
 
RadialDynamics said:
General steering temps, I like to see 120F to 180F as a normal and reasonable range. This puts most of the common fluids in a good viscosity range for use from low to high RPM. Industrial hydraulic temps are typically on the lower end to maintain higher viscosity, less internal leakage, and therefore better volumetric efficiency but industrial pumps don't see the operational speed range that a performance steering pump will experience.

Too cold (I would consider less than 80F), and the higher fluid viscosity will lead to more cavitation at high RPM and quicker pump wear. Now as for upper limits, the maximum peak that any of my teams hit is in the 210 to 215 range and that's with RDT or TT (cast iron/flow regulated) pumps running wide open for sustained periods in a high end Ultra4 or Trophy Truck. In a race like KOH, the average temp is 180 to 200 except for the occasional peaks. With a non-regulated billet TT pump in an identical system, steering temps peaking in the high 200's are common and I attribute that to a combination of increased cavitation and frictional losses throughout the hydraulic circuit.

A good fluid will last a race no problem although these teams are performing a lot more preventative maintenance, getting pumps serviced and flushing fluid on a regular basis, so being in the low 200's isn't of much concern. For your average weekend wheeler, I like to stick around 180F as a max although an occasional rise to 200 is still not overly concerning. For reference, Maxima Synthetic PSF has become my fluid of choice after seeing it work superior to other fluids in cold winter climates and in the 200+ degree racing applications.

On a flow-regulated TT pump like @bepop is using, even with copious amounts of throttle, I would have no concern running one or two of my finned tube "heat sink" style coolers wherever there is room to fit them in as I have podium placing 4400 teams doing this exactly. If someone can easily fit a higher efficiency cooler with a fan on it and wants to go that route, I will never stop them but I would say that it is not worth stressing over if plumbing and packaging will be that difficult compared to fitting two passive, and very robust, heat sink style coolers on the front of the car.
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Need to repost this in the trans and power steering cooler tech thread 2020 for future reference.
 
Yesterday I was able to spend a few hours brainstorming on this pile again.

I believe that trans and PS cooling topics are set. I'll just re-use the trans and PS coolers I have now. Save some money and self-inflicted aggravation.

I was also able to decide on a radiator mounting position / angle.

Next step, building the mounts and brain storm the hose routing. I have 2 solutions for these.



Sorry no pics, but progress is being made.
 
Bebop said:
Yesterday I was able to spend a few hours brainstorming on this pile again.

I believe that trans and PS cooling topics are set. I'll just re-use the trans and PS coolers I have now. Save some money and self-inflicted aggravation.

I was also able to decide on a radiator mounting position / angle.

Next step, building the mounts and brain storm the hose routing. I have 2 solutions for these.



Sorry no pics, but progress is being made.
Click to expand...
👍

Enjoyed the self-inflicted aggravation comment.
 
Another few hours yesterday.

Continued taking the thing apart. Panels and wiring are out. They will get redone.
It's hilarious to see the craftsmanship of the harness I was so proud of in 2019. Let's say I've made progress in the past few years.

FF23BE66-4F1C-4773-B000-4286A4BF8C9A.jpeg


Played around with the battery and settled on this spot for a few reasons :
  • Bracket will be easy to fab
  • Weight is down low and helps offset the driver weight
  • Short runs of power cables to the kill switch and other components
  • Very accessible if I need to swap the battery or jump the buggy

16C9FDD7-F8BE-4215-BD1E-3429A12384CA.jpeg


It hinders the accessibility to the trans cooler fittings and the lowest bell-housing bolt but I'll make the battery box removable for this purpose.
Starter, carrier bearing and driveshaft access is unchanged and those are the only things I had to touch on this side of the rig since I drive it.

Kept playing with the rad and mocked-it up in it's final location / angle :

4A783AD6-819C-455F-A780-B9ECF3C9431B.jpeg


94102452-474E-4BBF-9B26-88F1E65F10F2.jpeg


Gives me plenty of room for stacking coolers, for the shroud/fan and the lines to get there.
 
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Ol' Burkey balls
They don't make them anymore.

I'd use a regular heim and shock spacers if I had to do it again.
 
Nah.
I’ve been working on a friends car this long weekend.
 
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