French Tickler Buggy

[Bebop]

I have WOD Hydroboost with Wilwood Dynalites and vented rotors. Reading through some tech revealed that they "flex" and you don't/won't get the braking performance we're looking for in low range on a rig with 43's. My setup stops, but feel like it should be better. I believe the dynalites with spacers for the vented rotors are the problem.

I also believe you're correct.

I'm willing to spend the coin to get kungfu/gucci brakes, just don't want to go through multiple iterations.

Understandable but not always possible.

Didn't see a whole lot of info in the build thread on what you're running. Can you detail out what you have?

That's the thing. I did the iterative work and spent the money to get where I am.

Hydroboost (ported for more flow?), pedal ratio, master cylinder bore size, front rotors, front calipers (piston size?), rear calipers/rotors and brackets? Really interested in what you went with in the rear. Looks like some kind of factory caliper and possibly a vented rotor. I'm hopeful I can reuse some of my current setup. Any info is appreciated.

The best setup I had was with the factory 05+ calipers upfront, EBC green pads (make sure to bed them properly), custom drilled rotors (less surface area). The rear axle has the matching rear Ford superduty caliper, EBC green pads.

My thinking has always been to mimc the OEM setups since they are engineered very well. So I measured a super duty pedal radio and copied it and the pedal feels is pretty much similar to the truck. Firm, not a lot of travel, great initial bite and if you really shoot in the pedal, it'll clamp.

The master, I started with the same size as the HD trucks then went to smaller, with a noticable clamping performance increase for some travel / feel tradeoff (longer / less bite).

The 05+ calipers are huge. Especially upfront. At full lock, full stuff, they were hitting the bypass adjusters. So I swtiched to the wilwood stuff (in the front only) because they are so much smaller. They completely solved my clearance issue but the braking performance went down. I knew about the caliper flex and elected to go with thin rotors. I know the spaced out dynalites are shit. Later, I replaced them with Dynapros (billet), which was an improvement.

Wilwood also has a lot of different pad compound and I've been through a few. They are very easy to change.

In order to match the master with the caliper sizing, I would need an even smaller MC than what I currently have. Or bigger calipers. Smaller MC isn't an option for me RN, so bigger calipers it is. Dynapro 6 pistons are on the shelf. They fit the same mounting system as the 4 pistons so it's an easy swap.

But the car is broken, and I won't touch it for another while. In the meantime, I have planned some upgrades which would solve my clerance issue. I'm also thinking about going with a completely different booster in order to de-couple the steering and braking systems. So basically I'd have to start back from scratch since the MC area is different than what I've been playing with so far.




My shit is always a mess and I'm trying stuff. I can't tell you what you need. And if you copy what I have, do it at your own risks.
BTW, a friend of mine has a setup with 4 front 05+ calipers, EBC green stuff and drilled rotors, a random ZJ MC and booster and an even more random pedal ratio, and his shit outperforms mine. He also is on lightweight 40" tires vs my heavy 43s. So take all of this with a grain of salt.

Edit : I also have 2lbs residual valves on each circuit for an even more agressive initial bite. Tradeoff : The pads drag almost constantly.

 

[Bebop]

Adding to this, if you have the money and the wheel clearance (requires 20s), this kit is unreal :

Wilwood Disc Brakes

2011 Ford F-250 Super Duty 4 x 4Part No: 140-13867-R, brakes, disc brakes, big brakes, bbk, brake conversion kit, bolt-on brake kits, front brakes, calipers, axle flange, housing, rotors, dynalite, dynapro, superlite, d52

www.wilwood.com

I have seen those calipers in person and they are the size of a Dana300. No kidding, they are absolutely ridiculous.

 

[WaterH]

I don't know what gear ratios you have or the rolling resistance of your drivetrain/tire combo, but I promise you that if I let go of the gas at 40mph in low range, my car will definitely NOT stand on its nose.

If you are doing 40, I assume you are in the highest gear in low range. (In the T-case) I guess that won’t have as much drag as first in low, but still gives you some engine braking. My point was you don’t need more brakes in low range. The way he worded it, it sounded like that was what he was saying.

 

[Bebop]

My point was you don’t need more brakes in low range.

You need brakes all the time. The more the better.

The way he worded it, it sounded like that was what he was saying.

The way I read his post, he needed better brakes all the time.

 

[TX_Jeep]

My shit is always a mess and I'm trying stuff. I can't tell you what you need. And if you copy what I have, do it at your own risks.
BTW, a friend of mine has a setup with 4 front 05+ calipers, EBC green stuff and drilled rotors, a random ZJ MC and booster and an even more random pedal ratio, and his shit outperforms mine. He also is on lightweight 40" tires vs my heavy 43s. So take all of this with a grain of salt.

Edit : I also have 2lbs residual valves on each circuit for an even more agressive initial bite. Tradeoff : The pads drag almost constantly.

Appreciate all the info and input. Not trying to copy, just looking for setups that work to compare/contrast what I have. Can't go wrong with trying to mimic the OEM setups when possible. I have a hydro boost setup on a KP 60/14bolt disc conversion on another rig. Brakes will send you through the windshield if you don't have you belt on. Rig is only on 37's so not apples to apples, but works great. You plug the numbers into the BKOR calculator and it misses the targets because the caliper volumes are so large compared to the MC volume, but they're fantastic. Wish I could run the same stuff but 05+ SD knuckle mounts are different.

I run a 2 psi residual on the rear circuit. I can hear them drag at times. I think it helps. The last Wilwood pads I tried were the Polymatrix E type.

Adding to this, if you have the money and the wheel clearance (requires 20s), this kit is unreal :

Wilwood Disc Brakes

2011 Ford F-250 Super Duty 4 x 4Part No: 140-13867-R, brakes, disc brakes, big brakes, bbk, brake conversion kit, bolt-on brake kits, front brakes, calipers, axle flange, housing, rotors, dynalite, dynapro, superlite, d52

www.wilwood.com

I have seen those calipers in person and they are the size of a Dana300. No kidding, they are absolutely ridiculous.

Impressive! Haven't seen that kit. Sticking with 17's and 43's so probably not something I would consider. The two piece thin rotors with either 6 or 4 piston Wilwoods are probably the ticket. Not a huge deal, but I believe I'll have to re-weld the rear caliper brackets due to the rotor offset difference. Time and money...

You need brakes all the time. The more the better.


The way I read his post, he needed better brakes all the time.

Agreed. Can't have brakes that are too good, IMO. Holding the brakes for front/rear dig, winching trail tampons out of the way on loose dirt, panic stops because you think you're a race car driver and overshoot a turn. All reasons to have a kickass braking system.

Wouldn’t seem like you need much brakes in low range. Just let off the gas and it nearly stands on its nose. My rig has hydro boost and it stops good on 46’s, but I don’t think I could lock em on pavement at 60 mph.

MC, Caliper and rotor info? Interested in setups that work great.

 

[mobil1syn]

You need brakes all the time. The more the better.

the most important part of going fast is stopping quickly

 

[Bebop]

You plug the numbers into the BKOR calculator and it misses the targets because the caliper volumes are so large compared to the MC volume, but they're fantastic.

My experience has been that you need a smaller MC than what the cal csays.

I have a hydro boost setup on a KP 60/14bolt disc conversion on another rig. Brakes will send you through the windshield if you don't have you belt on. Rig is only on 37's so not apples to apples, but works great.

I installed the same setup (HB, 1-1/8 MC, KP60 dual piston calipers upfront, single piston half ton caliper in the rear) on ridered3 car a few years ago. He's on 39s and the brakes would slam you pretty good too.

The last Wilwood pads I tired were the Polymatrix E type.

Yep. try the A if you want more bite.

The two piece thin rotors with either 6 or 4 piston Wilwoods are probably the ticket. Not a huge deal, but I believe I'll have to re-weld the rear caliper brackets due to the rotor offset difference. Time and money...

Thin rotors do not shed heat very well. If you run repeated braking sequences, Spidertrax carries the Wilwood GT thin vented rotors that would help while keeping the caliper spacing reasonable.

If I were you, I'd look into going back to the big Ford calipers. They fit 17s.

Agreed. Can't have brakes that are too good, IMO. Holding the brakes for front/rear dig, winching trail tampons out of the way on loose dirt, panic stops because you think you're a race car driver and overshoot a turn. All reasons to have a kickass braking system.

100% my thinking as well

 

[csutton7]

Awesome stuff going on from the start --I'm not sure how I missed this from the start, but I'm now subbed in.

 

[ridered3]

the most important part of going fast is stopping quickly

Stopping quickly on purpose anyway

 

[ridered3]

Like Bebop mentioned, switching over to hydroboost made a huge difference in my rig. Previously setup was a CNC dual master manual brakes with all the same axle brake components he mentioned above. They worked ish, but couldn’t hold a line and required pumping for stopping. Swapping to hydroboost was awesome and don’t ever want to go back.

 

[Bebop]

She's ready for disassembly.

Hopefully I'll have an update sometime in the next 6/8 months...

Goal is back together late September.

I hope y'all were not hoping for an update, because she's still broken and untouched.
I moved it to my new shop a few weeks ago and it has been bugging me to start working on it again.
Trying to post this for some accountability from y'all assholes. I'm going to try to use my Tuesday nights to focus on it.

Short term goals are:

• new braking system (in order to delete the hydroboost)
• new steering system (which means new accessory drive, engine mounts, steering components relocation and I still haven't figured out what to do with the cooling system, have multiple options)
• new radiator in the rear (which means water routing to the back, mounting the rad, moving the fuel cell, rewiring the fan setup, re-plumbing the trans cooler, yada yada)

Longer term goals are:

• new rear axle
• repair/brace the chassis
• lighten the pig (would be nice to be under 4400 ready to run)

I have a lot of parts that I need to sell in order to fund the rebuild, since I was in the process of building another buggy and shit canned the idea.

 

[chaplinfj60]

i can recommend a good fan controller, look into the volvo fan controller.

glad your back on some updates.

such a big decision to sell or build new. i can relate to both. i wish i would have just build new instead of reworking and reworking and reworking. but i did not. and going forward if i feel the need i will build another and keep mine together.
again glad life is settling down some allowing you back in the shop...

 

[Bebop]

i can recommend a good fan controller, look into the volvo fan controller.

I'm going with fancier this time. Full PWM and Spal brushless deal.

glad your back on some updates.

Thanks. I'll try my best to keep it current.

again glad life is settling down some allowing you back in the shop...

It's not. I just need to make this a priority otherwise I'll never wheel again.
Also took the decision to wrap up the last projects I have open and not take on any more work for others. I need to prioritize myself.

 

[ridered3]

I hope y'all were not hoping for an update, because she's still broken and untouched.
I moved it to my new shop a few weeks ago and it has been bugging me to start working on it again.
Trying to post this for some accountability from y'all assholes. I'm going to try to use my Tuesday nights to focus on it.

Short term goals are:

• new braking system (in order to delete the hydroboost)
• new steering system (which means new accessory drive, engine mounts, steering components relocation and I still haven't figured out what to do with the cooling system, have multiple options)
• new radiator in the rear (which means water routing to the back, mounting the rad, moving the fuel cell, rewiring the fan setup, re-plumbing the trans cooler, yada yada)

Longer term goals are:

• new rear axle
• repair/brace the chassis
• lighten the pig (would be nice to be under 4400 ready to run)

I have a lot of parts that I need to sell in order to fund the rebuild, since I was in the process of building another buggy and shit canned the idea.

Glad to see you back working on it in all your "free time."

Why are you getting rid of hydroboost?

 

[Bebop]

Why are you getting rid of hydroboost?

I only have 1 good reason for that, I'm going with a really big pump (Trophy Truck from Radial Dynamics) and I don't believe the HB will handle the 11gpm it puts out.

I'm going to swap in an electric booster. I just don't know how I'm going to do so. Ideally I'd love to bury it in the belly.

 

[ridered3]

I only have 1 good reason for that, I'm going with a really big pump (Trophy Truck from Radial Dynamics) and I don't believe the HB will handle the 11gpm it puts out.

I'm going to swap in an electric booster. I just don't know how I'm going to do so. Ideally I'd love to bury it in the belly.

I think you should add a picture of the buggy getting some backwards fresh air and maybe a burnout video too...

 

[WaterH]

When you say “delete the hydro boost” , do you mean going to a different hydro boost? Or you going to some other kind of power brakes?

Anyways, always good to hear someone getting back to work on their projects. You do such extreme stuff, it’s fun for us mortals to watch. (That means take pics)

Edit, Dam, I type too slow.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Have you spoke with RD about it?

I'd think a bypass of some type would make it possible?

 

[Bebop]

Have you spoke with RD about it?

At length. I will also send him my HB for flow / back-pressure testing.

I'd think a bypass of some type would make it possible?

Too complex. The car is already cramped up as is and I'm trying to simplify it.

 

[mobil1syn]

Ideally I'd love to bury it in the belly.

pedal coming out the floor hot rod style

 

[Bebop]

pedal coming out the floor hot rod style

Not possible in my case, since there is nothing under the floor.
I'm thinking about a boat cable or a linkage type deal.

Edit with pic, not sure it's very visible but the floor is expanded metal with nothing underneath it. Also visible here, I think I could put the booser and MC on left side of trans / bell housing area.

There is a tube right under the pedal too :

 

[mobil1syn]

will it not fit where the booster assembly is now?

 

[Bebop]

will it not fit where the booster assembly is now?

Nope. the electric booster is bigger than the HB

 

[YotaAtieToo]

At length. I will also send him my HB for flow / back-pressure testing.


Too complex. The car is already cramped up as is and I'm trying to simplify it.

Would it be though? Or could it be a simple crossover hose with the correct size orifice?

Maybe it's the varying flow with rpm that complicatsles things?

 

[Bebop]

Would it be though? Or could it be a simple crossover hose with the correct size orifice?

Maybe it's the varying flow with rpm that complicatsles things?

Yep.

You have to understand the shear size of the components I'm trying to install. Feed hose for the pump is AN-16. All return lines are AN-12. The resi is 4" OD x 11" tall. 250cc orbital. Everything is huge.

I currently am very very tight on every steering component and I'm using "normal" sized parts (CBR pump, AN-8/AN-10 hoses etc).
There is no room.

 

[mobil1syn]

Nope. the electric booster is bigger than the HB

even if you move the orbital?

I currently am very very tight on every steering component and I'm using "normal" sized parts (CBR pump, AN-8/AN-10 hoses etc).
There is no room.

well time for a new chassis

 

[chaplinfj60]

Yep.

You have to understand the shear size of the components I'm trying to install. Feed hose for the pump is AN-16. All return lines are AN-12. The resi is 4" OD x 11" tall. 250cc orbital. Everything is huge.

I currently am very very tight on every steering component and I'm using "normal" sized parts (CBR pump, AN-8/AN-10 hoses etc).
There is no room.

and you go fast nd want to turn fast. that makes it even more of a challenge.

 

[Bebop]

well time for a new chassis

I have one designed in my head. I don't have the time nor money to make it happen.
I had a buyer for my car and turned him down because I feel like rebuilding this car is still the fastest path forward.

and you go fast nd want to turn fast. that makes it even more of a challenge.

I NEED to turn faster to go faster

 

[mobil1syn]

I have one designed in my head. I don't have the time nor money to make it happen.
I had a buyer for my car and turned him down because I feel like rebuilding this car is still the fastest path forward.

get this one driveable for the season, start building the new one implementing upgrades

 

[Bebop]

get this one driveable for the season, start building the new one implementing upgrades

I still have all the parts from the previous versions. Haven't sold anything.
It could be driving in 2 days.

Don't feel like I'm ready to build another one just yet.