YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Yes
And yes I understand a good operator shouldn't be slamming logs into shit, but not all operators are good,
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Edison Motors
- Thread starter SomeGuyFromOlympia
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- electric vehicle ev
Yes
And yes I understand a good operator shouldn't be slamming logs into shit, but not all operators are good,
ridered3
Low Talent Wheelin
Mighty impressive what they've been able to pull off to this point.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
It's crazy how long this technology has been around and is still considered revolutionary in a semi. 1914 was the first D/E locomotive, LeTourneau was making d/E equipment in the 50s and the first d/E mining dump truck was in 63.
It will be interesting to see how the truck is accepted in the market. Would be awesome if they could get a contract with one of the big semi manufacturers as just a power train option.
It will be interesting to see how the truck is accepted in the market. Would be awesome if they could get a contract with one of the big semi manufacturers as just a power train option.
350TacoZilla
Well-known member
Obviously they are copying off Top Gear's Geoff lol. I'm not into electric vehicles in general but this always seemed like the obvious answer to me because of the locomotive and mining truck use. Need good power to get heavy weight moving then the requirements drop considerably so you are only using part of the power. With a pure diesel truck if you need 500hp to get up 1 hill then 100hp to keep it moving on flat ground your only choice is to get a 500hp engine and deal with the efficiency of that 500hp engine all of the time, with the hybrid you can use the 500hp electric motor and battery power to get over that 1 hill then just drop the power down to the 100hp and once batteries are low fire up the say 200hp genset and recharge while moving. I know its not a perfect world and there are losses so forgive the fantasy math.
Skinny
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Essentially what a hybrid car does for the last near three decades. Sure a Prius is a locomotive but the principals are the same.
Geoff is the OG EV and to me the only cool one. All others are posers...
But here is the problem, if it burns diesel fuel you aren't getting out of the emissions issue. So unless you are a locomotive, cargo ship, or the US military...you still need to comply with regs. Which means you are at the next of Tier 4 final. Ie. F'd in the A.
Although if the gen is only running to charge or provide lots of power then the DPF may actually work quite well.
Geoff is the OG EV and to me the only cool one. All others are posers...
But here is the problem, if it burns diesel fuel you aren't getting out of the emissions issue. So unless you are a locomotive, cargo ship, or the US military...you still need to comply with regs. Which means you are at the next of Tier 4 final. Ie. F'd in the A.
Although if the gen is only running to charge or provide lots of power then the DPF may actually work quite well.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Not really, most hybrids still have a mechanical connection from wheels to engine. Well at least the older ones do, I don't follow hybrids by any means.
Its quite the pickle for the liberals, does it get exemptions for saving the planet with zero emissions electric motors, or get a million smog control parts because it's evil bad diesel killing the kittens?
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Weasel
Red Skull Member
Not sure what everyone's deal with "copying". Well no shit, none of this is new and was probably made and sold en-mass in the early 1900's. But none of them were building a logging truck application then where they?
Skinny
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Yeah hybrids is such an open concept. The Prius connects the engine and motor through a planetary so it acts like a CVT but isn't. You have the little Chevy which is like an EV but has basically an on board generator.
I never understood the whole particulate thing. Obama's administration said diesels had to comply with the same standard that has engines so. Literally impossible when you have to inject more fuel to speed the engine up cuz it doesn't exactly have a throttle plate. Doomed from the start. So all the bastard systems and after treatment is the only way to make that work.
Zero incentives to create better working technology, just riddle the engine with emissions controls. Like instead of crossing the rubicon from carb to EFI, just keep smogging the fuck out of everything and prevent innovation. Manufacturers instead of innovating are simply trying to stay ahead of the curve of standards. Fucking retarded and backwards.
Meanwhile other countries are destroying the planet at ridiculous rates. God forbid your out of compliance school bus rolls some coal cuz it was made 30 years ago.
Imagine if in 2008 you could have had a downsized diesel without DOC and DPF. Instead it had a parallel motor generator which could supplement power when needed. Lowers overall emissions and increased fuel economy. Engine runs happier and lasts way longer. Company has more profit and less downtime.
But instead it's the same old shit. Never learned our lessons of why cars sucked in the early 80s. Instead of having 15 years to perfect that we have 15 years of gay crap that still doesn't work.
I never understood the whole particulate thing. Obama's administration said diesels had to comply with the same standard that has engines so. Literally impossible when you have to inject more fuel to speed the engine up cuz it doesn't exactly have a throttle plate. Doomed from the start. So all the bastard systems and after treatment is the only way to make that work.
Zero incentives to create better working technology, just riddle the engine with emissions controls. Like instead of crossing the rubicon from carb to EFI, just keep smogging the fuck out of everything and prevent innovation. Manufacturers instead of innovating are simply trying to stay ahead of the curve of standards. Fucking retarded and backwards.
Meanwhile other countries are destroying the planet at ridiculous rates. God forbid your out of compliance school bus rolls some coal cuz it was made 30 years ago.
Imagine if in 2008 you could have had a downsized diesel without DOC and DPF. Instead it had a parallel motor generator which could supplement power when needed. Lowers overall emissions and increased fuel economy. Engine runs happier and lasts way longer. Company has more profit and less downtime.
But instead it's the same old shit. Never learned our lessons of why cars sucked in the early 80s. Instead of having 15 years to perfect that we have 15 years of gay crap that still doesn't work.
350TacoZilla
Well-known member
If you ever saw the Top Gear Geoff vehicle in question I think you would figure out that I'm joking. May even joked about Fisker stealing their technology since most hybrids use both the gas\diesel engine and electric motor(s) to move the vehicle where their Geoff was pure electric vehicle recharged by a simple generator while moving after they couldnnt find places to plug it in and had terrible range. The Fisker Karma was one of the first automotive hybrids to use the same idea that I know of but like we have all said locomotive and large equipment have used the technology forever. I think BMW actually did something similar with their little I3 where it had an optional range extender which is just a fancy way to say on board generator.
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Skinny
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I think the massive issue here is we are trying to make things work that shouldn't. Like let's choose a platform that would work well for a hybrid or EV power train...large SUV or pickup truck. Massive fucking fail.
Sure maybe the Cybertruck has amazing drag but it's also a giant heavy chinsy truck that does nothing really well and is basically useless.
Sure in order to sell stuff there needs to be a market for it. Here in the US no one wants small efficient anything. Hence why you can't even buy a compact pickup anymore. Smallest thing here is a midsize. It's all caddywhompass.
Sure maybe the Cybertruck has amazing drag but it's also a giant heavy chinsy truck that does nothing really well and is basically useless.
Sure in order to sell stuff there needs to be a market for it. Here in the US no one wants small efficient anything. Hence why you can't even buy a compact pickup anymore. Smallest thing here is a midsize. It's all caddywhompass.
350TacoZilla
Well-known member
I mean the maverick and sante cruze are both nearly small pickups, kinda borderline since they are unibody with an attached bed like a brat or baja was. personally I'm driving around in a 96 impreza 2dr coupe and I love the thing, but I'm not exactly running out to buy a new car anyhow so guess I really don't count towards a market for small efficient car. If I had the cash I wouldn't mind getting something to replace the wifes 03 ram 1500 with the 4.7L but even then EV doesn't really seem appealing at the price point they start at vs the range you get. The Ramcharger thats coming seems to be setup like the loco\edison setup so that would be interesting to see how it works out but unless they do something like offer a small battery model a year or two later with the generator I don't see it being any more affordable than the current lightning\chevy EV offerings.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Purely on paper. A plug in hybrid pickup would work great for us. Electricity is super cheap here and The wife's drives are super short, so it's possible most days would be able to be done on just battery. But we still use it for road trips and some towing.
Plus a 7kv power source would have been handy when the power was out the other day.
But, I don't really feel like getting into a different vehicle right now, and the F150 hybrid isn't plug in. so I'll just burn dyno oil for now.
Plus a 7kv power source would have been handy when the power was out the other day.
But, I don't really feel like getting into a different vehicle right now, and the F150 hybrid isn't plug in. so I'll just burn dyno oil for now.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
You guys literally just proved my point
Wasn't trying to prove you wrong or right.
I'm all for ev/hybrid, just don't think they're for everyone (especially full Ev) and definitely don't want it forced down my throat.
Fwiw, used powerboost F150s don't seem all that expensive compared to any similar 1/2t. If a tree fell on the wife's 2015 F150, I'd be looking at them at least.
SomeGuyFromOlympia
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SomeGuyFromOlympia
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What is the difference between this log truck and your Tesla with a generator in the trunk running only when you need it via the plug in cord?
arse_sidewards
Can't unlearn
The way I see it unibody shit is finally "good enough" for pickups. Shit started with the Ridgeline and is growing down market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz and up-market with the Cybertruck.
Give it a decade and all the midsize and half ton shit will be unibody. I will greatly enjoy how many retards will get their panties in a knot over this.
Skinny
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Log truck running a diesel genset doesn't side skirt the issue. It is using a diesel engine still that has all the issues with being under Tier 4 regulations. This isn't going to be some magic bullet. It still is going to have the issues all the OTR trucks have with emission compliance but now have even more complexity added to it.
Also what size gen do you think you need to charge an EV in a usable amount of speed? I think you may want to do some more reading before making a statement like that. A "portable" generator that would fit in the trunk of a car would literally take days to charge a Tesla. There is no free lunch in any of this.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Running at a constant rpm and load should make the emissions stuff more reliable. Also, I hate the dpf/Def stuff as much as anyone, but the newer stuff does seem pretty reliable. We have about every type of diesel at work from 70hp mini ex, to wheel loaders and semi's. Lots of the 08-15ish stuff lost some wieght to become more reliable but the later stuff seems much better, emissions wise.
If I were Edison, I'd be looking at filing for exemptions being an electric vehicle.
Google says 10kw to fast charge a tesla. Which also says it takes 15 mins.
That's not exactly a small generator, but not gigantic either.
Also, I'm not sure any ev will actually charge and drive at the same time?
Skinny
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I agree any constant load engine application will work better with what we have going on. Having said that I've had new gens with 100-200 run hours plugged right up due to issues. I get it, they have to run under load in order to work. They simply don't. It's a bastard systems and a band aid.
Maybe any new architecture designs, like brand new engines coming to market, may become better. But my bet is all that would be lost because so much of it would be made overseas to the lowest quality spec to make it as cheap as possible.
Ok so a portable 10kw gen is a V twin 500cc-ish sized unit which requires two people to lift. It's not exactly portable. Probably isn't going to last long running at full load but even if it did it would take 7-10 hours to charge a car if the car was not driving. I don't care enough to look it up but I'd want to know how much fuel it takes to do that and get what 200-250 miles range on that charge.
Maybe any new architecture designs, like brand new engines coming to market, may become better. But my bet is all that would be lost because so much of it would be made overseas to the lowest quality spec to make it as cheap as possible.
Ok so a portable 10kw gen is a V twin 500cc-ish sized unit which requires two people to lift. It's not exactly portable. Probably isn't going to last long running at full load but even if it did it would take 7-10 hours to charge a car if the car was not driving. I don't care enough to look it up but I'd want to know how much fuel it takes to do that and get what 200-250 miles range on that charge.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
I agree any constant load engine application will work better with what we have going on. Having said that I've had new gens with 100-200 run hours plugged right up due to issues. I get it, they have to run under load in order to work. They simply don't. It's a bastard systems and a band aid.
Maybe any new architecture designs, like brand new engines coming to market, may become better. But my bet is all that would be lost because so much of it would be made overseas to the lowest quality spec to make it as cheap as possible.
Ok so a portable 10kw gen is a V twin 500cc-ish sized unit which requires two people to lift. It's not exactly portable. Probably isn't going to last long running at full load but even if it did it would take 7-10 hours to charge a car if the car was not driving. I don't care enough to look it up but I'd want to know how much fuel it takes to do that and get what 200-250 miles range on that charge.
Holy fuck, you're right. I read the 10kw as the tesla supercharger but it's actually up to 250kw
10kw is around 30miles per hour, so ya, all night.
I had a nice generac 10kw generator. It was not lift able for 1 guy and would burn around 8 gallons in 12 hours. Rough math (if the 33 miles per hour of charging at 10kw on Google is right) you wind up at 22mpg
Pretty sure that mile per hour of charging is the model s not cyber truck.
To be fair, I'm not sure I fully understand kw when translated to hours.
More googling:
But if a cyber truck takes 14 hours to charge on a 30 Amp plug. 30x240 is 7200. So basically you're running a 10kw peak gen at full bore for 14 hours. Generac says 0.88gph. Which works out to 27mpg (if 340 mile range is correct)
Not terrible, but there are just so many factors.
Ironically Google lists exactly 0.88gph for diesel also.
Like you said, no free lunch.
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Skinny
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I have a Generac 10kw and I despise having to move that thing around. Yeah the fuel economy isn't great. If you are burning it in a generator which isn't exactly super efficient anyway, especially an air cooled 3600 RPM unit. Then converting from AC to DC then back through whatever it does for the motor control lots of losses in between even just from heat.
I think we have just hit peak combustion engine. I actually think we hit it pretty hard back in the 90s/2000s. Sure there have been advanced in power output but reliability and durability is not what it used to be.
EVs probably would have been better machines back then if the battery technology was better. Just based on the fact that cars were simpler. Like if Chevy built an EV1 but with lithium chemistry.
Now everything is bloated because the consumer demands that the car massage your back and jerk you off as you drive around looking at your 23 cameras.
So back to efficiency...
I'll also remind everyone that cars like the Honda CRX or CVCC or Insight have equal or greater fuel economy then what is shit out these days. So where is the progress?
I think we have just hit peak combustion engine. I actually think we hit it pretty hard back in the 90s/2000s. Sure there have been advanced in power output but reliability and durability is not what it used to be.
EVs probably would have been better machines back then if the battery technology was better. Just based on the fact that cars were simpler. Like if Chevy built an EV1 but with lithium chemistry.
Now everything is bloated because the consumer demands that the car massage your back and jerk you off as you drive around looking at your 23 cameras.
So back to efficiency...
I'll also remind everyone that cars like the Honda CRX or CVCC or Insight have equal or greater fuel economy then what is shit out these days. So where is the progress?
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
3cyl geo metro is still the king as far as I know, some people say over 60mpg
I've always wanted to see what a metro 3cyl or early tdi would do in something that has a ton of engineering into aero. Sure the pruis gets good fuel economy, but how much of that is the planet saving batteries and how much of that is a shit load of resources spent on making it aero dynamic?
I need to put the effort in to make a real YouTube channel, as shit like that would be fun if I'm getting paid to do it.
regular gen 2 prius vs tdi prius vs 1.0 metro prius.Skinny
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I think anything in the Kei size is going to be 50+mpg territory.
Check out Robot Cantina. He has some cool swaps like a Kubota 3 cylinder in a Saturn, Predator V twin in some euro car. He has some good engineering and testing but is definitely a good ol boy. Kinda fun watching off projects like those come together.
Check out Robot Cantina. He has some cool swaps like a Kubota 3 cylinder in a Saturn, Predator V twin in some euro car. He has some good engineering and testing but is definitely a good ol boy. Kinda fun watching off projects like those come together.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
ironman_gq
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They're working with Scania to get one of their new engines, Tier 4 final with no DPF. They figured out how to get a clean burn without the filter.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Nice, I heard that euros went away from Def a long time ago, hopefully we'll follow that trend.
3cyl geo metro is still the king as far as I know, some people say over 60mpg
I've always wanted to see what a metro 3cyl or early tdi would do in something that has a ton of engineering into aero. Sure the pruis gets good fuel economy, but how much of that is the planet saving batteries and how much of that is a shit load of resources spent on making it aero dynamic?
I need to put the effort in to make a real YouTube channel, as shit like that would be fun if I'm getting paid to do it.
The Toyota Prius Delivers 93 MPG, Setting Guinness World Record
The current Toyota Prius may be EPA-rated for 57 MPG, but it just completed a 3,200-mile cross-country drive, from Los Angeles to New York, while averaging 93 MPG
www.forbes.com
Prius > All
I would hate to be stuck behind that guy on the freeway.
Skinny
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DPG and DEF are two drastically different things. No DEF is possible with the use of some pretty extreme EGR systems.
No DEF I'm not sure how that would be possible. The very combustion process from diesel burning creates particulate. I don't see how any engine manufacturer can eliminate that without a DPF.
No DEF I'm not sure how that would be possible. The very combustion process from diesel burning creates particulate. I don't see how any engine manufacturer can eliminate that without a DPF.