Current Events and Bible Prophecy

[Tiha]

Hard to support an idealogy that largely drives adherence through fear, and is more often than not, driven into your head as a child. So when you lived a life of being told something as absolute truth, it is natural to reject the idea of anything else.

Would you jump out of an airplane without a parachute?

Not if you want to live right?

No different than teaching our children about God and the bible.

Then there are some that jump out of an airplane and live. Would they do it again without a parachute?

Or have they figured it out now?

 

[MuntCuffin]

Before the reformation there were major wars fought in the name of God. The Catholic Church has turned a blind eyebto its Clergy that has enough members raping young boys using their power and influence to keep it quiet. The mountain of bodies under the Vatican. Its been nothing but extreme manipulation, rape (sodomy of a boy by a man in particular), and destruction of anyone who questions their authority up until recent history and even now I am sure it happens just not openly talking about squashing this heretic or that pagan. All the while incorporating a HUGE number of pagan traditions in order to draw in the less than willing.

A blind eye? Who have you listened to other than the secular media about the corruption from within the church?

I'd invite you to listen to Ftr William Casey and Ftr. Don Calloway. The abuses perpetrated by some in the church are fully recognized by the church, and are abhorred and hated. The spirit of Judas is alive and well, and the Catholic Church, speaking just from a perspective of patterns, is due for a cleansing and purifying period. Last time the Catholic Church faced such corruption from within, you saw the protestant schism.
And on the flipside of what your points are, I also invite you to study the lives of some of the saints, if you wish.
I can't control what you think and believe, nor do I desire to do so. If you choose to believe I am evil, so be it. I once thought like you, for many many years. I get it.
However, I caution judging an entire faith, embodied by its scripture and tradition, by the actions and sins of men.
Not claiming to be an expert on Catholicism, I have much studying to do on the saints myself. Currently reading "confessions st augustine."
If you let the actions of men stand in your way of finding truth, you are doing yourself a disservice.

 

[MuntCuffin]

Hard to support an idealogy that largely drives adherence through fear, and is more often than not, driven into your head as a child. So when you lived a life of being told something as absolute truth, it is natural to reject the idea of anything else.

I used to laugh at the people that would "Find Jesus" through their time in prison or someway later on in their life, but I've come to respect them more than those that were taught it since they could remember. At least those that found him experienced something (no matter how sincere or believeable) to drive them to that belief.

Fear? What is it you see as fear mongering?

I lived life as a self-pitying pagan heathen for 35 years. And my soul and body has the wounds and scars to show for it. Only by God's grace am I still alive and here today. I wish I was raised knowing God. Woulda saved a lotta hurt.

 

[Thefishguy77]

A blind eye? Who have you listened to other than the secular media about the corruption from within the church?

I'd invite you to listen to Ftr William Casey and Ftr. Don Calloway. The abuses perpetrated by the church are fully recognized by many in the church, and are abhorred and hated. The spirit of Judas is alive and well, and the Catholic Church, speaking just from a perspective of patterns, is due for a cleansing and purifying period. Last time the Catholic Church faced such corruption from within, you saw the protestant schism.
And on the flipside of what your points are, I also invite you to study the lives of some of the saints, if you wish.
I can't control what you think and believe, nor do I desire to do so. If you choose to believe I am evil, so be it. I once thought like you, for many many years. I get it.
However, I caution judging an entire faith, embodied by its scripture and tradition, by the actions and sins of men.
Not claiming to be an expert on Catholicism, I have much studying to do on the saints myself. Currently reading "confessions st augustine."
If you let the actions of men stand in your way of finding truth, you are doing yourself a disservice.

Show me how the Vatican is taking it seriously! Its been a known problem for 40+ years. A BIG FUCKING WIDESPREAD problem. How many priests have they relocated vs. excommunicated. Your telling me you couldnt go through your company in 40 years and root oyt most all of the bad employees? 40 years and a virtually unlimited budget. Its about PR only. Hell the current pope is dangerously close to promoting marxism.

I will give you a hint, the Vatican is run like a government. They move and protect those who get in trouble if they keep their mouth shut and do as their told.

To think they care more about the morality of the Church vs getting in trouble is foolish. They always keep everything internal and bury the result if they can. They are the exact opposite of the values of Bible in so many ways it’s sickening

I am not talking about the church goers I am talking about the Church

ETA: I was raised Catholic. My moms side of the entire family is Catholic. My grandmother was a Catholic school teacher. I also went to Catholic school to start with. I first hand saw the money is far more important that what is right and wrong.

 

[MuntCuffin]

Show me how the Vatican is taking it seriously! Its been a known problem for 40+ years. A BIG FUCKING WIDESPREAD problem. How many priests have they relocated vs. excommunicated. Your telling me you couldnt go through your company in 40 years and root oyt most all of the bad employees? 40 years and a virtually unlimited budget. Its about PR only. Hell the current pope is dangerously close to promoting marxism.

I will give you a hint, the Vatican is run like a government. They move and protect those who get in trouble if they keep their mouth shut and do as their told.

To think they care more about the morality of the Church vs getting in trouble is foolish. They always keep everything internal and bury the result if they can. They are the exact opposite of the values of Bible in so many ways it’s sickening

I am bot talking about the church goers I am talking about the Church

I admitted there was corruption from within. If you don't think there are catholics questioning even the Vatican through all of this, you are horribly mistaken.

Just because we have a president that sold his soul to China, does that mean all Americans are evil? Or that the constitution of the United States is some worthless rag?

You are equating men to the faith. They are separate. There are no excuses for what some members of the catholic clergy perpetuated, and then even more covered up. None.
I really urge you to listen to William Casey, he talks about the church scandals, the possible roots of it (the sexual revolution in the 60's, the rise and acceptance of homosexuality, etc.)

What would you like to see happen, either to the church or the priests? Do you wish to hold all catholics responsible for what some did? Or do you wish to simply be angry and damn anyone that is catholic?

 

[xr-nut]

I admitted there was corruption from within. If you don't think there are catholics questioning even the Vatican through all of this, you are horribly mistaken.

Just because we have a president that sold his soul to China, does that mean all Americans are evil? Or that the constitution of the United States is some worthless rag?

You are equating men to the faith. They are separate. There are no excuses for what some members of the catholic clergy perpetuated, and then even more covered up. None.
I really urge you to listen to William Casey, he talks about the church scandals, the possible roots of it (the sexual revolution in the 60's, the rise and acceptance of homosexuality, etc.)

What would you like to see happen, either to the church or the priests? Do you wish to hold all catholics responsible for what some did? Or do you wish to simply be angry and damn anyone that is catholic?

I cannot speak for fishguy, but what I think is that if enough catholics pew sitters stood up and complained, quit putting dollars in the offering, then the "church" would do something about it. They are not doing that, so by proxy they are at a minimum part of the problem.

 

[MuntCuffin]

I cannot speak for fishguy, but what I think is that if enough catholics pew sitters stood up and complained, quit putting dollars in the offering, then the "church" would do something about it. They are not doing that, so by proxy they are at a minimum part of the problem.

We certainly do have a problem with Sunday only catholicism. Who treat church as some kind of social club.

Not to mention priests that allow such lukewarm catholicism to occur in their church.

Not going to stop tithing, as that is something between me and God, but there are those that see there is a problem within the church, and are working to correct it. Just like their are those that see their are problems with corruption within society as a whole, and are working to correct it.

Of course they are getting pushback. Or its not happening fast enough for others. With our immediate gratification society, I'm not really surprised. With the overall state of society, it's not surprising at all. And the state of the church and society in general today was seen and warned about a long way off by men much smarter and much more holy than myself.

If its any consolation to your anger, see what Jesus said about those that inflict scandal on his followers. Luke 17:1-17:2, iffn yer curious.

 

[Thefishguy77]

I admitted there was corruption from within. If you don't think there are catholics questioning even the Vatican through all of this, you are horribly mistaken.

Just because we have a president that sold his soul to China, does that mean all Americans are evil? Or that the constitution of the United States is some worthless rag?

You are equating men to the faith. They are separate. There are no excuses for what some members of the catholic clergy perpetuated, and then even more covered up. None.
I really urge you to listen to William Casey, he talks about the church scandals, the possible roots of it (the sexual revolution in the 60's, the rise and acceptance of homosexuality, etc.)

What would you like to see happen, either to the church or the priests? Do you wish to hold all catholics responsible for what some did? Or do you wish to simply be angry and damn anyone that is catholic?

I get it’s an emotional issue for most believers. Again: I am not talking about the church attendees. I am talking about the church itself. They are not the same. I never even once attacked the Catholic chucrh attendees, but that seems to be the o ly thing your hung up on. I compared the Catholic Church to Islam. Not the Catholic people to Muslims.

 

[xr-nut]

If its any consolation to your anger, see what Jesus said about those that inflict scandal on his followers. Luke 17:1-17:2, iffn yer curious.

You read me wrong, Im not angry. At best you could call me indifferent. I have enough things in my little circle of life to worry about, to deal with that I really don't care what "wrongs" are happening. Especially to a group of people who willingly let it continue to happen. Not my zoo, not my monkeys.

Example, wife was looking at some sad video on social media something or other about infants and the effects of masking. Social cues and crap like that. Turns out infants need to see their parents faces to judge how to react to said parent and to learn how to show emotions. No shit, you dont say. I told her that she needed to harden her heart. There is nothing, I repeat nothing, she can do to change or influence these morons wearing masks at home with their infants. Don't let this weigh on you. Same goes for the kiddy diddling in the church. Not my village, not my idiots. (btw- shes not going to harden her heart on purpose, but these last two years have really oppened her eyes)

To answer the scripture you quoted, I like it. That is partly why I am indifferent. They will get what is coming to them.

 

[WaterH]

Only by God's grace am I still alive and here today.

This sentence reminds me of people that recover from a terrible illness like cancer. They always say the doctors gave up, so god cured me. The problem with this logic is, why did he give you cancer in the first place? Of course, they say “he didn’t give it to me”. My simple mind says “if your going to attribute a good miracle to god, you have to attribute a bad miracle to him also.”

I’m not suggesting that god doesn’t exist, but surviving something is not proof.


If you want to hear more of my goofy logic, why does Jesus dieing on the cross do anything for our sins? Since he can come back to life, I guess it wasn’t much of a sacrifice. Or payment.

 

[MuntCuffin]

This sentence reminds me of people that recover from a terrible illness like cancer. They always say the doctors gave up, so god cured me. The problem with this logic is, why did he give you cancer in the first place? Of course, they say “he didn’t give it to me”. My simple mind says “if your going to attribute a good miracle to god, you have to attribute a bad miracle to him also.”

I’m not suggesting that god doesn’t exist, but surviving something is not proof.


If you want to hear more of my goofy logic, why does Jesus dieing on the cross do anything for our sins? Since he can come back to life, I guess it wasn’t much of a sacrifice. Or payment.

I can't speak to your logic, or others experiences...and this is really getting off into the weeds from this threads intended purposes, but my free will and bad choices led to many of the hardships and despair I went through in my life. And my choice to be selfish and wallow in self pity through suffering also helped contribute to that.
God gave me strength and an iron will, through his grace. By accepting that grace, it helped me right many, many, many wrongs in myself.
Because if I didn't put God first, I most certainly would have (and for the longest time, did) put something first, whether it be myself, money, sex, or alcohol.

If you're perfect and have no want for anything, then hey, more power to you. I'm not. I need a savior, because I ain't good enough to get through this batshit crazy ass world alone and am willing to admit that.

As to God allowing suffering, thats the bitch about free will and the ramifications of sin and the imbalance it causes in the universe. He permits suffering because he permits free will.

As to your last question, you would have to understand the covenant made with Abraham that Jesus fulfilled as the spotless lamb. Humans chose to nail him to the cross...that damn free will and all. Sure, God could make us all robotic NPC's, but what fun is that? What creativity is in that?

Anyway, derail over. If these are genuine questions that you seek answers to, I'm sure you have a priest within a 30 minute drive. They are likely much more qualified to help you find answers to specific questions you have.

 

[WaterH]

Sure, God could make us all robotic NPC's, but what fun is that? What creativity is in that?

This is the best my logic can come up with. We are an experiment. As such, he set up the boundaries and is now watching. He does not interfere. So if you straighten out your life, you did it. Of course, if you get cancer, tough luck. He doesn’t interfere. We can hope that if Putin decides to nuke us, maybe he might interfere to save the experiment. But, of course, could be he has 20 or 2000 of these experiments running at the same time.

Now I hear you saying “he loves us”. Could be he loves us like a 10 year old loves his ant farm in between two pieces of glass. Not saying this is correct, just trying to explain the logic. He gave me this mind, I guess I have to use it.

 

[Never Monday]

We can hope that if Putin decides to nuke us, maybe he might interfere to save the experiment. But, of course, could be he has 20 or 2000 of these experiments running at the same time

Don’t you count each species as a version of this experiment.

 

[Thefishguy77]

MuntCuffin. Honest question for you. How long has modern man walked the earth? Not trying to start a fight more trying to establish how devoted of a catholic you are. Being raised Catholic I have heard modern man didn’t start till Jesus because befor that there was no Gods grace amongst the people. I have also heard 4,000 and 6,000 ish years. And then I talked to 1 Father that believed humans walked with dinosaurs but that was only like 6,000 ish years ago.

The more I dug into the founding of the Catholic Church the more I began to believe it was a fo as I say not as I do cult at the church level. The church tell people they need to give more to help the local poor but the Church has a poor congregation and probably has $250-500,000 worth of gold decorations on display inside said poor church. You can go back through the history of the Catholic church amd find examples like this where they hid and collect wealth all the while blaing god and the fellow people for not providing for their man.

Also not sure how old you are but do you remember Y2K? The Church was asked no Y2K related what was the best advance for women in the last 100 years? The dishwasher. Then there has been the constant changing story. First Mary was a great person, then a sinner, then a whore, then the church quietly withdrew the whore accusation. There are many otger examples of where the Church lied to their people for what ever reason then changed their story when more evidence could not be superseded.

I am not doubting Jesus or any other God you want to talk about. I am doubting Man and our evil self serving ways. The Church is no different. Its about serving the Church in the disguise of serving God.

 

[Thatg9659]

I've seen those videos.

I was 8 or 9, no real trauma I think, just happy to be watching a movie in church.

 

[Tiha]

This is the best my logic can come up with. We are an experiment. As such, he set up the boundaries and is now watching. He does not interfere. So if you straighten out your life, you did it. Of course, if you get cancer, tough luck. He doesn’t interfere. We can hope that if Putin decides to nuke us, maybe he might interfere to save the experiment. But, of course, could be he has 20 or 2000 of these experiments running at the same time.

Now I hear you saying “he loves us”. Could be he loves us like a 10 year old loves his ant farm in between two pieces of glass. Not saying this is correct, just trying to explain the logic. He gave me this mind, I guess I have to use it.

The is a whole lot going on in that statement and the previous post you made. Might be better to start another thread or you can certainly PM me and I would be happy to share my views and experience.

Sin=death Jesus didn't sin, but was sacrificed. He was the perfect lamb, as lambs were sacrificed in the old testament. Jesus is our sacrifice. He is God that became Man, human, suffered every temptation we suffered. He was tortured and passed all the tests.

Bad things happen because of Sin. Not because of God. We are all created with a desire for more. To basically seek for more. He wants us to choose him. Is love a dog that comes running to you happily? Or one that comes with it's tail tucked between it's legs? poor analogy but you see the difference. He could make us love him, but would rather we choose him. That is free will.

Following God is not always an easy life, but the reward is beyond compare. He has given the free gift of eternal life. All you have to do is accept it.
The closer someone is to God the harder the devil works to corrupt them. Someone who is far from God is often left alone. Make sense?

God is all knowing, He knows everything that will happen. He has a plan and usually we cannot understand it until after.

 

[Redwagon]

The is a whole lot going on in that statement and the previous post you made. Might be better to start another thread or you can certainly PM me and I would be happy to share my views and experience.

Sin=death Jesus didn't sin, but was sacrificed. He was the perfect lamb, as lambs were sacrificed in the old testament. Jesus is our sacrifice. He is God that became Man, human, suffered every temptation we suffered. He was tortured and passed all the tests.

Bad things happen because of Sin. Not because of God. We are all created with a desire for more. To basically seek for more. He wants us to choose him. Is love a dog that comes running to you happily? Or one that comes with it's tail tucked between it's legs? poor analogy but you see the difference. He could make us love him, but would rather we choose him. That is free will.

Following God is not always an easy life, but the reward is beyond compare. He has given the free gift of eternal life. All you have to do is accept it.
The closer someone is to God the harder the devil works to corrupt them. Someone who is far from God is often left alone. Make sense?

God is all knowing, He knows everything that will happen. He has a plan and usually we cannot understand it until after.

This is my understanding.

 

[MuntCuffin]

MuntCuffin. Honest question for you. How long has modern man walked the earth? Not trying to start a fight more trying to establish how devoted of a catholic you are. Being raised Catholic I have heard modern man didn’t start till Jesus because befor that there was no Gods grace amongst the people. I have also heard 4,000 and 6,000 ish years. And then I talked to 1 Father that believed humans walked with dinosaurs but that was only like 6,000 ish years ago.

The more I dug into the founding of the Catholic Church the more I began to believe it was a fo as I say not as I do cult at the church level. The church tell people they need to give more to help the local poor but the Church has a poor congregation and probably has $250-500,000 worth of gold decorations on display inside said poor church. You can go back through the history of the Catholic church amd find examples like this where they hid and collect wealth all the while blaing god and the fellow people for not providing for their man.

Also not sure how old you are but do you remember Y2K? The Church was asked no Y2K related what was the best advance for women in the last 100 years? The dishwasher. Then there has been the constant changing story. First Mary was a great person, then a sinner, then a whore, then the church quietly withdrew the whore accusation. There are many otger examples of where the Church lied to their people for what ever reason then changed their story when more evidence could not be superseded.

I am not doubting Jesus or any other God you want to talk about. I am doubting Man and our evil self serving ways. The Church is no different. Its about serving the Church in the disguise of serving God.

I believe man has been walking the earth longer than science would like to admit. I, personally, believe there was an advanced civilization wiped out by a massive comet or asteroid impact some 13,000 years ago. Around the end of the younger dryas period. That impact led to a massive worldwide flood and catastrophic rains all over the earth due to massive melting of the ice sheets from the impact and the disruptions to ocean currents, etc that caused.
This is what evidence such as erosion on the sphinx, the discovery of gobekli tepe, and the evidence that humans had found and even explored Antarctica much much earlier than what is commonly accepted.

You have every right to doubt man. Man is fallible. I'm not going to sit here an defend every little thing people in the church has done. I can't. There have been periods of corruption within the catholic church, i believe now is one of those periods, having roots clear back to the 60's and 70's.

However, I find the teachings of Jesus as righteous and just. He established the catholic church as the apostle Peter was the first Pope.
All I can do is work from the inside, not defend the wrongs, and work to be right, knowing I will fall short in some ways, but sticking to it it nonetheless.

 

[WaterH]

God is all knowing, He knows everything that will happen. He has a plan and usually we cannot understand it until after.

This is another statement I have issue with. If he gives you free will and then waits to see if you accept him, he obviously doesn’t know if you will. If he does know, why wait?

Also, at issue is the whole idea of “if you accept me, you’ll go to heaven” . Kind of sounds egotistical. Somehow I don’t think of god as being egotistical.

He may have a plan and obviously we don’t understand. Because of this, I think most religion is BS. I think I said in my first post to this thread, the Bible has enough correct predictions in it to confirm it must have had Devine influence, but I don’t think anyone can really interpret it.

 

[Thefishguy77]

I believe man has been walking the earth longer than science would like to admit. I, personally, believe there was an advanced civilization wiped out by a massive comet or asteroid impact some 13,000 years ago. Around the end of the younger dryas period. That impact led to a massive worldwide flood and catastrophic rains all over the earth due to massive melting of the ice sheets from the impact and the disruptions to ocean currents, etc that caused.
This is what evidence such as erosion on the sphinx, the discovery of gobekli tepe, and the evidence that humans had found and even explored Antarctica much much earlier than what is commonly accepted.

You have every right to doubt man. Man is fallible. I'm not going to sit here an defend every little thing people in the church has done. I can't. There have been periods of corruption within the catholic church, i believe now is one of those periods, having roots clear back to the 60's and 70's.

However, I find the teachings of Jesus as righteous and just. He established the catholic church as the apostle Peter was the first Pope.
All I can do is work from the inside, not defend the wrongs, and work to be right, knowing I will fall short in some ways, but sticking to it it nonetheless.

 

[Tiha]

This is another statement I have issue with. If he gives you free will and then waits to see if you accept him, he obviously doesn’t know if you will. If he does know, why wait?

Also, at issue is the whole idea of “if you accept me, you’ll go to heaven” . Kind of sounds egotistical. Somehow I don’t think of god as being egotistical.

He may have a plan and obviously we don’t understand. Because of this, I think most religion is BS. I think I said in my first post to this thread, the Bible has enough correct predictions in it to confirm it must have had Devine influence, but I don’t think anyone can really interpret it.

This obviously is a conversation that never ends, it is as simple as this.

When you create your own earth and heavens, including everything in it and on it, then you can make whatever rules you want.

 

[Otto M@n]

This is another statement I have issue with. If he gives you free will and then waits to see if you accept him, he obviously doesn’t know if you will. If he does know, why wait?

Also, at issue is the whole idea of “if you accept me, you’ll go to heaven” . Kind of sounds egotistical. Somehow I don’t think of god as being egotistical.

He may have a plan and obviously we don’t understand. Because of this, I think most religion is BS. I think I said in my first post to this thread, the Bible has enough correct predictions in it to confirm it must have had Devine influence, but I don’t think anyone can really interpret it.

You're asking questions that feed into a ciclic loop of responses to which there is no answer.

 

[MChat]

This sentence reminds me of people that recover from a terrible illness like cancer. They always say the doctors gave up, so god cured me. The problem with this logic is, why did he give you cancer in the first place? Of course, they say “he didn’t give it to me”. My simple mind says “if your going to attribute a good miracle to god, you have to attribute a bad miracle to him also.”

I’m not suggesting that god doesn’t exist, but surviving something is not proof.

"David said, “Will the citizens of Keilah hand me and my men over to Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will hand you over.” Then David and his men, about six hundred, rose up and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When it was reported to Saul that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the pursuit." - 1 Samuel 23:12-13

Christians believe that God is Omnipotent (all powerful) and Omniscient (all knowing), but God's knowledge doesn't end with "what was, what is, and what will be" it all includes "what could be". All-knowing means that He knows everything that was, is, will be and every permutation of what could be.

Jesus also shared with us "the two greatest commandments":

"Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”" - Mark 12:29-31

Simply put, these two commandments give us the purpose of life: to find God and to help others find Him.

Besides Omnipotent and Omniscient, God is Just. Now, if God knows everything (including what could be) and is all powerful, how could He be just if He didn't give everyone the best opportunity to find Him? Yet, that is exactly what God has done:

"The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;" - Acts 17:24-27

Physicists talk about the possibility of infinite universes, and stories have been written about a "parallel universe" where the Nazi's won WWII (Man in the High Tower). There is some truth to this concept, except these parallel universes only exist in the mind of God; His absolute knowledge of everything that could ever be and the nearly infinite permutations of what could be. Yet He chose this one, out of all the possibilities, He chose this one to be real, but why? The answer is simple: to give everyone who ever lived the best chance they have of finding Him. Why did someone get cancer? To give someone else a chance to find God. Why did you get into an accident? To give someone a chance to find God. Why did you win the lottery? To give someone a chance to find God. And likely not just one person, but many people. God is the ultimate Chess player, playing on a universe sided board, with billions of pieces, in at least 3 dimensions (the Bible hints at a 4th dimension, which is not Time). And He works all things toward good; so that those who could find Him, WILL find Him.

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." - Romans 8:28-30

Are there those that will never come to God, those that will always, no matter the quality or quantity of God's reaching out to them, reject Him? Yes, there are; I believe that God still gives them the best opportunity they have, and then God will simply use them to reach those who will reach back.

If you want to hear more of my goofy logic, why does Jesus dieing on the cross do anything for our sins? Since he can come back to life, I guess it wasn’t much of a sacrifice. Or payment.

Why did Adam's sin get transferred to us? Why couldn't every man who ever lived have the opportunity to sin or not sin? Why are God's laws what they are?

The simple truth of it is, every single one of us would have fallen the same as Adam. God decreed that a blood sacrifice must be made to atone for sin. If every man had been given his own chance, then everyone that fell would need a unique and individual savior (sacrifice). By decreeing that Adam's offspring would inherit Adam's sin (sin nature) God is also Just in decreeing that One Sacrifice will cover everyone's sin; enabling Him to provide Himself (Jesus) as a sacrifice.

In other words, He made the rules the way that they are so that we had a chance at winning (finding Him through Jesus). If the rules were otherwise, we could only lose with no chance of winning.

The Resurrection proves He is who He said He is (the Messiah); without the resurrection, He'd be "just another guy" (not the perfect sacrifice required for payment of sin) and we'd still be lost in our sins. It is because of His Resurrection we can place our hope in Him as one who not only conquered sin (living a sinless life) but also conquered death.

 

[Trackerbacker(fvckvs)]

I can't speak to your logic, or others experiences...and this is really getting off into the weeds from this threads intended purposes, but my free will and bad choices led to many of the hardships and despair I went through in my life. And my choice to be selfish and wallow in self pity through suffering also helped contribute to that.
God gave me strength and an iron will, through his grace. By accepting that grace, it helped me right many, many, many wrongs in myself.
Because if I didn't put God first, I most certainly would have (and for the longest time, did) put something first, whether it be myself, money, sex, or alcohol.

What if you gave yourself the strength and discipline? What if you put your body heart and soul first? You put you first, caught some breaks and got yourself out, what was it God did? Why does God not will that into non believers? And if he does, why not to all people, whether they praise him or not?

What if you put buddha or Allah first? Would jesus be nonexistent possibility?

(Not against religion, spiritual myself, but I dont abdicate what happens to me, good bad or indifferent, to any being but myself and the means utilized)

 

[WaterH]

Christians believe that God is Omnipotent (all powerful) and Omniscient (all knowing), but God's knowledge doesn't end with "what was, what is, and what will be" it all includes "what could be". All-knowing means that He knows everything that was, is, will be and every permutation of what could be.

I’m sorry, but this doesn’t make any sense. If the future is written in stone, then someone can know it. (Or not) But if the future is not cast in stone, then no one can know it. Yes, they could know all the possibilities, but if it’s not fixed, they can’t know the future. If they do know the future, then there are no other possibilities.

Also, you keep saying he gives everybody the best chance to accept him. This is not true. He could give everybody a kidney stone and tell them “you will have it until you accept me”. I guarantee that would give everybody the best chance to accept him.

 

[Tiha]

Also, you keep saying he gives everybody the best chance to accept him. This is not true. He could give everybody a kidney stone and tell them “you will have it until you accept me”. I guarantee that would give everybody the best chance to accept him.

But that is not free will.

Only God knows the future.
Look at Darwin, he accepted christ on his death bed. Can you imagine he ever thought he would do that throughout his life?
Yet God knew he would.
People change, God does not.

Drive you crazy to think about it.

 

[WaterH]

But that is not free will.

Only God knows the future.
Look at Darwin, he accepted christ on his death bed. Can you imagine he ever thought he would do that throughout his life?
Yet God knew he would.
People change, God does not.

Drive you crazy to think about it.

What do you mean? You could just accept the kidney stone. You could not believe he actually caused the stone. You could put a gun to your head. You could take pain pills. It’s all free will.

Your example has always bugged me. A child molester/murderer can be in prison and scheduled for death tomorrow. He accepts god. But a otherwise decent guy dies in a car crash and has no last minute chance to accept. Again, I don’t think anybody understands how it works.

 

[rockota]

Hard to support an idealogy that largely drives adherence through fear, and is more often than not, driven into your head as a child. So when you lived a life of being told something as absolute truth, it is natural to reject the idea of anything else.

I used to laugh at the people that would "Find Jesus" through their time in prison or someway later on in their life, but I've come to respect them more than those that were taught it since they could remember. At least those that found him experienced something (no matter how sincere or believeable) to drive them to that belief.

had a college professor once address the topic to a class this way:

If I, as a Christian and turned out to be wrong, what I have lost?
If I, as a Chrisian and turned out to be right, what have i gained?

(edit for clarity)

 

[rockota]

I get it’s an emotional issue for most believers. Again: I am not talking about the church attendees. I am talking about the church itself. They are not the same. I never even once attacked the Catholic chucrh attendees, but that seems to be the o ly thing your hung up on. I compared the Catholic Church to Islam. Not the Catholic people to Muslims.

One in the same.

 

[Tiha]

What do you mean? You could just accept the kidney stone. You could not believe he actually caused the stone. You could put a gun to your head. You could take pain pills. It’s all free will.

Your example has always bugged me. A child molester/murderer can be in prison and scheduled for death tomorrow. He accepts god. But a otherwise decent guy dies in a car crash and has no last minute chance to accept. Again, I don’t think anybody understands how it works.

You are playing what ifs. It never ends.

The wages of one sin is death. Doesn't matter if you are a mass muderer or stub your toe on the end table in the middle of the night and take the lords name in vain.
Both sins, both equal death.

You are comparing people based on society's standards, not God's