4th Gen 4Runner: Cross Country Runner

[FleshEater]

Not necessarily

Trident Triple Shifter Kit - for Toyota

When installing an underdrive into a Toyota, the shifting interface is just as important as the crawl box itself. Whether the crawl box setup of choice is a dual-gear drive unit or the NWF EcoCrawler, the Trident Triple Shifters seamlessly integrate the transfer case and crawl box shifter...

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No, nope, not going down this path.

Like you said earlier in this thread, with the 3.52 1st gear and what I’m doing, no need for any type of crawl gear.

Eventually the axles will get geared down ever so slightly lower with air lockers. That will be all I need. Driving across Wyoming at 85 mph-90 mph gave me a new perspective on axle gears, though.

So far this year we have no long distance trips planned for this. I mentioned New Hampshire/Vermont/Maine, but the wife didn't say much.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

No, nope, not going down this path.

Like you said earlier in this thread, with the 3.52 1st gear and what I’m doing, no need for any type of crawl gear.

Eventually the axles will get geared down ever so slightly lower with air lockers. That will be all I need. Driving across Wyoming at 85 mph-90 mph gave me a new perspective on axle gears, though.

So far this year we have no long distance trips planned for this. I mentioned New Hampshire/Vermont/Maine, but the wife didn't say much.

Have you been able to find any info online about fuel mileage with larger tires and lower gears? Some times the Toyotas do better with lower gears. Although I'm not super familiar with the 4.0.

Mine went up with 5.29s, but I also went from 30s to 35s.

It's hard for me personally to justify the cost of gears unless it's a ~25%+ jump. Less than that and it's really hard to notice the difference. Simple carrier swap is much more affordable.

 

[FleshEater]

Have you been able to find any info online about fuel mileage with larger tires and lower gears? Some times the Toyotas do better with lower gears. Although I'm not super familiar with the 4.0.

Mine went up with 5.29s, but I also went from 30s to 35s.

It's hard for me personally to justify the cost of gears unless it's a ~25%+ jump. Less than that and it's really hard to notice the difference. Simple carrier swap is much more affordable.

Maybe for older Toyotas. 4th gens and the swaps aren’t as simple. Less things are compatible. If they are, I don’t know about them.

This has 120,000 miles or whatever on it, and I plan on keeping it pretty much forever, so the cost is a moot worry. I’ve also decided I’m not going larger than 33’s. So…

As for gas mileage, I don’t know. This isn’t great on the highway, but it’s amazing on secondary roads around 45-55 mph. I’m talking like over 24-25 mpg. So lower gears don’t seem to be the path to better gas mileage at 90mph. Secondary roads I’m running low RPM’s. 85-90 and I’m currently at 2500-2600 RPM.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Maybe for older Toyotas. 4th gens and the swaps aren’t as simple. Less things are compatible. If they are, I don’t know about them.

This has 120,000 miles or whatever on it, and I plan on keeping it pretty much forever, so the cost is a moot worry. I’ve also decided I’m not going larger than 33’s. So…

As for gas mileage, I don’t know. This isn’t great on the highway, but it’s amazing on secondary roads around 45-55 mph. I’m talking like over 24-25 mpg. So lower gears don’t seem to be the path to better gas mileage at 90mph. Secondary roads I’m running low RPM’s. 85-90 and I’m currently at 2500-2600 RPM.

120k it should have lots and lots of life left in the diffs, but I can see how you would just want to go all new if you're pulling them.

The nice thing about not regearing would be that you could just drop a rear arb in now and do the front later. Honestly, the rear locker would probably get you more places than you'd want to take something this nice. We ran ours that way for almost 8 years and never felt the open front was a limitation. I only put the front in because I found one for cheap.

If highway cruising at high speeds is your priority, no way I'd regear. Unless you could find a factory set of diffs that were slightly lower. Like 4.10s. I can guarantee you wouldn't notice a 0.4 change offroad.

 

[FleshEater]

120k it should have lots and lots of life left in the diffs, but I can see how you would just want to go all new if you're pulling them.

The nice thing about not regearing would be that you could just drop a rear arb in now and do the front later. Honestly, the rear locker would probably get you more places than you'd want to take something this nice. We ran ours that way for almost 8 years and never felt the open front was a limitation. I only put the front in because I found one for cheap.

If highway cruising at high speeds is your priority, no way I'd regear. Unless you could find a factory set of diffs that were slightly lower. Like 4.10s. I can guarantee you wouldn't notice a 0.4 change offroad.

I really need 4.10’s. It’s hard to explain, but it would put all of my stuff back to stock. Driving across the midwest and southern Wyoming this just shifted and shifted non-stop. I’m almost certain this will adjust my shift points and save it from dropping out of overdrive all the time.

Ideally finding a 4.10 3rd member set would be ideal, but the Tacomas don’t swap and the 4Runners only came with 3.93 or 3.73.

So…it’s a lot of money, but I also do not trust myself setting the ring gear back up on this if I do the lockers myself. It’d probably be fine, but it would suck to annihilate a rear diff 1,800 miles from home.

I don’t know. None of this needs done right now, just possible things moving forward to better the overall performance of this in the future.

 

[FleshEater]

Well, the wife and I decided this morning to plan out a northeast trip, for just the two of us this summer. Without the boys we’ll be able to pack camping gear, and not be pinned down by reservations. Goal is to see Vermont, New Hampshire, northern Maine, and the Maine coast in 7 days.

This is going to push back the Samurai build, but this is what we’ve been living for, for the past 5 years. As gay as “overlanding” has become, I enjoy seeing as much of this country as I can more than anything, so fawk the haters.

Anyways, I’m going to be re-building the rear storage. My fridge base came loose from Wyoming, and it’s a nightmare re-tightening it due to where the bolts landed under the 4Runner. Plan is to build the new storage from steel, and bolt the fridge down to that. I also want to add adjustable shelves. This will also maximize room in the back more so than I can with wood.

The transfer case swap is going on hold for next winter. But I might send my thirds off to East Coast Gear Supply before this trip. Not sure what we’ll get into up there, but I know it’s going to be mud…lots of mud. Open diffs suck in mud.

Anyways, I’ll update this as I do more to the 4Runner.

 

[TiTRD]

When you get it figured out, post up your route. Can give some VT and NH recommendations.

 

[FleshEater]

When you get it figured out, post up your route. Can give some VT and NH recommendations.

I had posted this in the NE group, just waiting on replies. But I know not everyone travels the whole forum (including me).

“Hey guys, we’re planning a 7 day trip around the north east this summer. I haven’t researched much, but wanted to pick your brains if you live up there.

We’re going to try and camp for two days and hit a hotel every 3rd day or so. But we’re wondering what your summers are like up there. Is it hot and humid all night like western Pennsylvania?

Also, is there a lot of options to camp from your vehicle up there? It’s not allowed in a lot of Pennsylvania, and I haven’t got a route planned yet, so just getting info. If we can car camp it allows us way more opportunities to just explore up there.

Any sites that are must see? Current idea is to hit Lake Placid, NY, to the White Mountains in NH, to Moosehead Lake, ME, then down to the coast, then head back towards home.”

___________________________________

To the guys who build stuff from metal here: Is 1.25” OD 1/8” thick square tubing overkill for a rear rack build out to also hold the weight of the fridge? Would smaller tube be fine?

I always overkill build and then it weighs a shit ton.

 

[665.0coupe]

I would think 1” or 1.25” 1/8” wall would be fine. The fridge will be down low right?

 

[YotaAtieToo]

1x065 would probably be fine, but 090 or 083 is usually easier to find and work with.

 

[FleshEater]

Tonight I did what I usually do and thought tirelessly about this. A full fridge, and a rack full of tools and gear is a lot of weight dependent on the factory tie downs and ratchet straps.

So, I’m going to build the new storage unit from steel, but I’m leaving the fridge bolted to the floor. What I ended up doing was tightening everything up and doubling up a nut behind all the nylon lock nuts.

I’m actually debating tacking them to the bolt and to each other…it’s a lot to hold down.

I’m going to get all the steel this week or next. Still need to figure out how I want to build the middle shelf and allow it to be adjustable to some extent.

 

[Slander]

Go to Maine, it's awesome!

 

[FleshEater]

Go to Maine, it's awesome!

It’s a done deal. Just a matter of planning the route.

Still on the fence about the locker/lockers. Also ran numbers on 4.30 gears and they look like a decent option to get me ever so slightly lower than stock. Just in case I want to get into more stuff with this down the road. The 33’s will limit me, but armor can make up.

 

[Toyoland66]

I really need 4.10’s. It’s hard to explain, but it would put all of my stuff back to stock. Driving across the midwest and southern Wyoming this just shifted and shifted non-stop. I’m almost certain this will adjust my shift points and save it from dropping out of overdrive all the time.

Ideally finding a 4.10 3rd member set would be ideal, but the Tacomas don’t swap and the 4Runners only came with 3.93 or 3.73.

So…it’s a lot of money, but I also do not trust myself setting the ring gear back up on this if I do the lockers myself. It’d probably be fine, but it would suck to annihilate a rear diff 1,800 miles from home.

I don’t know. None of this needs done right now, just possible things moving forward to better the overall performance of this in the future.

You have a 8” reverse rotation clamshell front and a 8” rear.

The front clamshell is the same for 2nd gen + tacomas and 4th gen +4Runners and Lexus GXs. You can get a 4.10 front from a 2nd gen 4 banger Tacoma and it’s a direct swap. I think with your 4runner being a 4.0 it already has the ADD axle tube but regardless the axle tubes are swappable between the full time and ADD versions.

For the rear you can get a 4.10 e-locker from a 3rd gen 4runner, I think they were offered up to 99, only downside is the earlier 8” diffs have the smaller spline count pinion and you would have to re-drill the flange. check out car-part or Hollander or similar sites.

if you want 4.30’s the 3rd gen tacomas with the manual transmission is where you can find the front, and the same pre 99 4runner also came with 4.30 e-lockers.

another option is GX460s came with 3.91 but that isn’t enough of a jump to make it worthwhile imo.

 

[FleshEater]

You have a 8” reverse rotation clamshell front and a 8” rear.

The front clamshell is the same for 2nd gen + tacomas and 4th gen +4Runners and Lexus GXs. You can get a 4.10 front from a 2nd gen 4 banger Tacoma and it’s a direct swap. I think with your 4runner being a 4.0 it already has the ADD axle tube but regardless the axle tubes are swappable between the full time and ADD versions.

For the rear you can get a 4.10 e-locker from a 3rd gen 4runner, I think they were offered up to 99, only downside is the earlier 8” diffs have the smaller spline count pinion and you would have to re-drill the flange. check out car-part or Hollander or similar sites.

if you want 4.30’s the 3rd gen tacomas with the manual transmission is where you can find the front, and the same pre 99 4runner also came with 4.30 e-lockers.

another option is GX460s came with 3.91 but that isn’t enough of a jump to make it worthwhile imo.

Car-Part front diff parts from the Tacos cost almost as much as ECGS. Toyota tax.

 

[Slander]

It’s a done deal. Just a matter of planning the route.

Still on the fence about the locker/lockers. Also ran numbers on 4.30 gears and they look like a decent option to get me ever so slightly lower than stock. Just in case I want to get into more stuff with this down the road. The 33’s will limit me, but armor can make up.

5.29s, that way you are setup for 37s down the road

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I know I've said it before, but I really doubt you'll notice going from. 3.90s to 4.10s or even 4.30s. So much money for almost no difference.

 

[FleshEater]

I know I've said it before, but I really doubt you'll notice going from. 3.90s to 4.10s or even 4.30s. So much money for almost no difference.

I’m at 3.73 now. I’m pretty sure my difference will be the constant shifting at highway speeds. Like I said it’s always dropping out of overdrive on the slightest incline. It did the entire way across Wyoming and even Iowa. Nebraska was okay.

I have the same issue going across Missouri and Kansas.

It’s way more noticeable when you’re going at high speeds for 12 hours at a time. You start noticing everything, especially in the midwest.

 

[rockota]

It’s a done deal. Just a matter of planning the route.

Still on the fence about the locker/lockers. Also ran numbers on 4.30 gears and they look like a decent option to get me ever so slightly lower than stock. Just in case I want to get into more stuff with this down the road. The 33’s will limit me, but armor can make up.

what's your cruising RPM at 60 mph? 70 mph?

Toyotas are way under geared from the factory, IMHO. Given the added weight, 33's, wind resistance... that 4.30's gets you just slightly over current, I'd start looking at 4.56 or 4.88 as the solution.

 

[FleshEater]

what's your cruising RPM at 60 mph? 70 mph?

Toyotas are way under geared from the factory, IMHO. Given the added weight, 33's, wind resistance... that 4.30's gets you just slightly over current, I'd start looking at 4.56 or 4.88 as the solution.

I am not worried about 60mph. It’s 75-85 mph that I have issues.

This has plenty of power, drives great, so I don’t feel like it’s under geared, until I get to the higher highway speeds. This also gets retardedly awesome mpgs around 45-50 mph right now.

Here’s my numbers for 3.73 and 4.30:

Here it is at 4.88…imagine running 3,000 RPM’s for 10 hours straight.

 

[rockota]

I am not worried about 60mph. It’s 75-85 mph that I have issues.

This has plenty of power, drives great, so I don’t feel like it’s under geared, until I get to the higher highway speeds. This also gets retardedly awesome mpgs around 45-50 mph right now.

Here’s my numbers for 3.73 and 4.30:

Here it is at 4.88…imagine running 3,000 RPM’s for 10 hours straight.

3000 isn’t a big deal. All manual 5vze and i believe the same for the 1gr put cruising speed at about 3000 at 65. The r150 OD is only .85 compared to .71 in the auto. I don’t recall on the 5 speed auto

 

[FleshEater]

3000 isn’t a big deal. All manual 5vze and i believe the same for the 1gr put cruising speed at about 3000 at 65. The r150 OD is only .85 compared to .71 in the auto. I don’t recall on the 5 speed auto

5 speed auto (A750F) is .72.

My stock gearing and tires is 2506 RPM’s at 85mph. So 3000 is a bit more. Again, this is also being held for hours on end, not a quick run. I’m down to around 17 mpg on the highway currently. This eats gas at higher RPM’s.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I’m at 3.73 now. I’m pretty sure my difference will be the constant shifting at highway speeds. Like I said it’s always dropping out of overdrive on the slightest incline. It did the entire way across Wyoming and even Iowa. Nebraska was okay.

I have the same issue going across Missouri and Kansas.

It’s way more noticeable when you’re going at high speeds for 12 hours at a time. You start noticing everything, especially in the midwest.

Everything I've read says 4.0s got 3.90s and v8s got 3.73s.

4.10s to 3.54s was pretty noticeable on my 7.3. But that's a diesel that was near the top of its tpm range at 70.

Some googling found this

4.10 isnt a big enough shift in ratio to warrant the cost of changing them. however with the new 3rd gen tacomas out there are now 4.30 ratio ring and pinions for our 8 inch clamshell diffs in the front to go along with v6 ones that have been around for ever. i think its nitro gear that sells them but i could be wrong. its what i wanted to go to when i was still on 33s, but now that im on 35s its between 4.56s and 4.88s.

as for your question on 4.56s. my dad just recently regeared his 5th gen trail on 33s with 4.56s and picked up a full mpg in city driving and from his limited highway driving since the swap seems to have retained his highway mileage. all the while making the truck actually driveable and it can hold 5th gear on hills now. it made a night and day difference for hi m.

Have you been able to find a 4.10 or 4.30 rear 3rd member for a decent price yet? Might be worth picking one up used and swapping it in the rear for some testing, before spending $3500 and wishing you went lower.

Edit: you probably have one in your stash of parts for the Sami! Doesn't have to stay in there.

 

[FleshEater]

Everything I've read says 4.0s got 3.90s and v8s got 3.73s.

4.10s to 3.54s was pretty noticeable on my 7.3. But that's a diesel that was near the top of its tpm range at 70.

Some googling found this



Have you been able to find a 4.10 or 4.30 rear 3rd member for a decent price yet? Might be worth picking one up used and swapping it in the rear for some testing, before spending $3500 and wishing you went lower.

Edit: you probably have one in your stash of parts for the Sami! Doesn't have to stay in there.

I’m pretty certain I have 3.73’s. Just tested it by hand as well.

The old 3rds I have are going to throw codes as they’re not ABS and I’m not dealing with an issue from that.

I know everyone wants deeper gears, but I do not want my top speed to end up being 70 mph for decent gas mileage. I just do not see 3000+ RPM’s held for 12 hours as getting “decent” gas mileage.

This got great highway mileage at factory settings. I don’t see how running the engine at higher revs would optimize that. If that were the case my mileage would be terrible on secondary roads and it’s not. The read out on the dash is around 27 mpg at 45 mph on hilly terrain. 16-17 mpg at 75mph on the interstate…now. Pretty sure stock it was getting 22mpg.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I’m pretty certain I have 3.73’s. Just tested it by hand as well.

The old 3rds I have are going to throw codes as they’re not ABS and I’m not dealing with an issue from that.

I know everyone wants deeper gears, but I do not want my top speed to end up being 70 mph for decent gas mileage. I just do not see 3000+ RPM’s held for 12 hours as getting “decent” gas mileage.

This got great highway mileage at factory settings. I don’t see how running the engine at higher revs would optimize that. If that were the case my mileage would be terrible on secondary roads and it’s not. The read out on the dash is around 27 mpg at 45 mph on hilly terrain. 16-17 mpg at 75mph on the interstate…now. Pretty sure stock it was getting 22mpg.

I'm talking just throw the 3rd in for a week or so for testing.

I get your point, but what I'm thinking is that 4.10s may not be enough to really change anything. Have you figured out what the ratio difference is between 4th and 5th? Are you trying to split that?

One trick to see how you would like super low gears is to lock it out of OD on the highway. Your 0.716 x 5.29 ~3.73s, obviously that's way too low for your use, but gives you an idea. Playing with the calculator, 4.56s would split your current 4th and 5th in half, again for reference.

Not trying to beat a dead horse, I just hate to see you spend the $3500 and wish you did something different.

I don't know how different the 3.4 and 4.0 are, but I've done 80 mph with 5.29s and 35s for hours while getting 17 mpg. These Toyota engines like to Rev.

 

[FleshEater]

I'm talking just throw the 3rd in for a week or so for testing.

I get your point, but what I'm thinking is that 4.10s may not be enough to really change anything. Have you figured out what the ratio difference is between 4th and 5th? Are you trying to split that?

One trick to see how you would like super low gears is to lock it out of OD on the highway. Your 0.716 x 5.29 ~3.73s, obviously that's way too low for your use, but gives you an idea. Playing with the calculator, 4.56s would split your current 4th and 5th in half, again for reference.

Not trying to beat a dead horse, I just hate to see you spend the $3500 and wish you did something different.

I don't know how different the 3.4 and 4.0 are, but I've done 80 mph with 5.29s and 35s for hours while getting 17 mpg. These Toyota engines like to Rev.

I get what you’re saying. I appreciate all the input, because it’s a lot of money. It’s also a lot of work.

The most difficult thing is filling needs. Most people who re-gear are doing so for more difficult wheeling, and not going quite as far to do it in most cases. If I was out there already, I’d do 4.88 without question. Trying to find examples suitable to mine are like a needle in a haystack.

I’m leaning more towards 4.30’s, but I just ran the calculator to 4.56. It’s about 200 more RPM’s at my fastest cruise and isn’t a huge ordeal. Ideally, 4.56 would be perfect up to 80 mph, honestly. So I might just consider those, They’ll carry me across Colorado a lot better, too.

3.73 to 4.56

I feel like 4.56 would keep me in OD most of the time across the midwest. I usually set the cruise at 5 mph over the posted limit. So until Kansas, Nebraska, and South Dakota it’s 70 mph limit, and those states jump to 75 mph limits. Right now at 75mph across places like Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, Ohio, etc. I’m shifting as soon as an incline comes. This can show what’s going on:

3.73 to 4.56

Actually, you might have just sold me on 4.56. Seeing these two laid out at those speeds it’s also no wonder it’s in and out of overdrive.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

You're stubborn, but not as stubborn as me

I don't think that many guys are using these 4runners much different than you. I think most guys priority is road and highway driving.

Also, you're right about 3.73s. 3.90s were only in 03-04 with the 4speed auto.

Edit: also, I was just messing with the calculator. You're 3.52 1st gives you the same crawl ratio with 4.30s as mine is with the 2.8 1st and 5.29s. I never realized they were the same bellhousing pattern. Now you have me researching an A750F swap

 

[FleshEater]

You're stubborn, but not as stubborn as me

I don't think that many guys are using these 4runners much different than you. I think most guys priority is road and highway driving.

Also, you're right about 3.73s. 3.90s were only in 03-04 with the 4speed auto.

Edit: also, I was just messing with the calculator. You're 3.52 1st gives you the same crawl ratio with 4.30s as mine is with the 2.8 1st and 5.29s. I never realized they were the same bellhousing pattern. Now you have me researching an A750F swap

They’re using them like me, but not re-gearing. The guys I’ve found re-gearing to 4.56 usually state very little highway use, towing with them, and off roading them with the plan to go to 35’s sone day.

When thinking about this it’s like there’s one perfect combo, then one that really does nothing, and one that’s too far. Looking for Goldilock’s combo here.

 

[FleshEater]

My plan to re-do the rear shelving unit with metal got changed when I started adding up the weight. New plan is to adjust my storage needs by finding containers more perfectly sized.

Last night I ordered the Milwaukee medium sized packout container. It should be able to house the tools I usually carry. Once I get that set up, I’m going to focus on our cookware storage, paper products, etc. They make enough plastic containers for all these big box stores that I should be able to find the right size. Our last trip I ran to the local hardware store and grabbed what was on the shelves. It worked, but there’s better options.

A roof rack is seemingly inevitable. There’s just not enough storage for a family of four. Even with minimal packing.

Anyways, I painted the wood shelf, because the red oak just smelled horrendous in the cabin. This should seal the stink in. I also took some time and aftually cleaned up the back of the 4Runner some. Detailing interiors is not my idea of fun.

 

[kerleyfries]

FJ t-case will bolt right in. You can also get a manual shift t-case out of a 2010+ 4-runner because they're identical. I got mine out of a 2015 TRD OR 4runner for like $400 this time last year. You'll have to drill a hole in the tunnel and cut some of the interior plastics up for the shifter to work and be accessible. You could buy an FJ/ 5th gen 4R case and then the NWF eco box and be $2k in it total if you want a doubled setup. Put your factory Tcase internals into the Ecobox and then the FJ case behind it.

You'll need the FJ ADD tube and intermediate shaft to delete the front ADD, I have the part numbers on my laptop at home and can check them tonight. I think with a used Tcase and all new Toyota parts for the front diff I was like $700 in the tcase swap and ADD delete. But if your actuators are good on the front diff and especially the Tcase, you can actually make money by selling your old stuff and end up with no electronics and some cash in your pocket (assuming you don't add the NWF box too).

As for gearing, I found that 4.56's and 35's was the perfect sweet spot. I took my 5th gen from Nashville out west on a 2.5 week trip towing a 2200lb travel trailer and had no complaints. Can easily run 80-85 on the western highways too and get decent mileage. I was averaging 17-18 running from Salt Lake City down to Moab about once a month (no trailer) while I lived out there.

3rd gen rear axle would require some serious fabrication to the mounts to work. Not to mention it's like 4" narrower than the factory so you'll have all sorts of tire to body interference, it's weaker overall, etc... Overall terrible idea.