'05+ Ford Super Duty Dana 60 Axle Tech & Info

[YotaAtieToo]

I don’t claim to be an expert welder. Everyone is calling out my weld prep. I flapper wheeled and used a knotted wire wheel to get the joint clean to bare metal. Pre-heated to 400 *F welded using 0.035 ER70 in alternating 1” stitches with a 240v Hobart 180. Peened the weld and re heated to 400 and wrapped in weld blanket. The weld tore the cast away from the housing. What am I missing?

My intent is to grind everything back down flush and clean. I have no objection to getting Ni55 of stainless filler. Preheat again to 400F

Am I the only one not liking the 1" stitches either?

 

[TrailTamer]

Am I the only one not liking the 1" stitches either?

Weld a full 360*, no stopping. But that’s me.

 

[Sterlingfire]

Am I the only one not liking the 1" stitches either?

If you can weld full 360° without stopping, I'd say go for it, but if you have to stop to switch sides or positions then it should be stitched... because it will pull otherwise. There isn't enough tube in the cast housing to keep it straight if you overheat one side... when stitching you also need to grind the previous weld where you're going to start. Most people don't do that.
On my first 14 bolt, i had my buddy weld it for me. He showed me how to do it. He's not just your average welder. He's been doing it since before he was out of high school, he holds credentials in a bunch of different methods. If i could afford him, he'd be tigging my shit pile together for me. I trust his way, and mine are both straight and true.

 

[TrailTamer]

Stand it up and weld it around,

or if it’s rear axle, put a wheel on the hub to stand it up on. Weld it as you spin it around.

 

[arse_sidewards]

If you can weld full 360° without stopping, I'd say go for it, but if you have to stop to switch sides or positions then it should be stitched... because it will pull otherwise. There isn't enough tube in the cast housing to keep it straight if you overheat one side... when stitching you also need to grind the previous weld where you're going to start. Most people don't do that.

Non-issue on a front IMO.

Tack it real good in a few spots and then burn it in. Rears are more sensitive to alignment but still not hard. If you don't fuck it up you should get a result that's close enough to spec that you can pull it there with a little bit of welding in the right spot.

 

[Sterlingfire]

Non-issue on a front IMO.

Tack it real good in a few spots and then burn it in. Rears are more sensitive to alignment but still not hard. If you don't fuck it up you should get a result that's close enough to spec that you can pull it there with a little bit of welding in the right spot.

Very true, but can most garage welders pull an axle tube with the right amount of weld in the right spot? I'm not sure, but with a bit of effort and patience they can weld it without warping in the first place is all I'm getting at.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Can most garage welders pull an axle tube with the right amount of weld in the right spot?

Anyone who can lay a bead and measure results can do it.

 

[Sterlingfire]

Anyone who can lay a bead and measure results can do it.

So then you're saying less than half

 

[JamieRC]

How are you guys cutting inner Cs off? My 6” cut off disks on reach in so far with the bullshit brackets behind the inner. Bit big for a sawzall, it burns blades out fast.

 

[RPS1030]

How are you guys cutting inner Cs off? My 6” cut off disks on reach in so far with the bullshit brackets behind the inner. Bit big for a sawzall, it burns blades out fast.

On the sawzall note, I saw a recommendation of some specific blade when cleaning up my first SD60, went thru the cast like crazy after burning up several standard blades.

 

[rockyota83]

fwiw if you keep a cup of water to dip the sawzall blade in it will last longer

 

[RunningProblem]

Very true, but can most garage welders pull an axle tube with the right amount of weld in the right spot? I'm not sure, but with a bit of effort and patience they can weld it without warping in the first place is all I'm getting at.

While he is more than a garage welder it’s a very good video

 

[JamieRC]

On the sawzall note, I saw a recommendation of some specific blade when cleaning up my first SD60, went thru the cast like crazy after burning up several standard blades.

Milwaukee makes a blade like that.



So i managed to get 2 inners cut off in pretty good time once I figured out a system. Cut off the two little brackets (sway bar) near the inner C, quick and dirty with a cut off disk. Then make a cut right in behind the inner C with the disk. Do this on both sides(front and back of the axle). Connect those cuts with an Oxy torch. Got 2 inners off in about half an hour.

 

['84 Bronco II]

I don’t claim to be an expert welder. Everyone is calling out my weld prep. I flapper wheeled and used a knotted wire wheel to get the joint clean to bare metal. Pre-heated to 400 *F welded using 0.035 ER70 in alternating 1” stitches with a 240v Hobart 180. Peened the weld and re heated to 400 and wrapped in weld blanket. The weld tore the cast away from the housing. What am I missing?

My intent is to grind everything back down flush and clean. I have no objection to getting Ni55 of stainless filler. Preheat again to 400F

I just saw this, so it is probably too late to help with my input, but maybe it will help someone else.

You have two big issues with your process, 400°F is not enough preheat for oil-soaked cast and 180 amps is not enough to give you the penetration you need without proper joint prep (beveling) and/or multiple passes. Most WPS call out a preheat of 600-1,200°F for welding cast. The higher preheat does three things; it helps with the internal stresses as the part cools (prevents warpage and cracking), increases penetration because much less heat is being drawn away from the weld puddle, and burns off oil and other contaminants that are soaked into the casting (like a self-cleaning oven does). .035" wire is alright, but .045" is better if it's an option.

You want the entire workpiece to have a uniform preheat prior to welding, and after welding, you want to preform a post heat until the workpiece is back at a uniform temperature prior to allowing it to cool. Peening is unnecessary. Obviously you want it to cool as slowly as possible. If you hear loud tinks or pings you let it cool to fast and you now have cracks.

Specialty high-nickel wire, and stainless wire just help prevent cracking because they are more ductile than ER70S-6 and better match the CTE of the casting. With proper procedure, ER70S-6 works fine.

The other problem is that the short tube loses a ton of support when you cut away the 2" of casting to fit link brackets. This puts a pretty nasty moment on the weld as you experienced. A truss, or bridging the centersection to the C with your shock mount like Bepop posted is you best bet because even with a perfect weld, there is not a whole lot of support for that tube left.

 

[CDA 455 II]

nOOB tech questions (regarding '05+):
What line needs to be crossed to justify upgrade from factory or cromo 35-spline axle shafts to 40 spline?

What kind of improvement, percentage-wise, just going from factory to cromo axle shafts?

Axle will be dealing with 20X11 steel rims / 42X14 F rated tires / 100+:1 final drive ratio.

 

[Bebop]

No point to go 40sp in a Dana 60.

The ring and pinion will give up before good 300M 35sp shafts

Factory 1550 shafts are the logical upgrade, but it will really depends what you do with your rig. Something heavy will need more than a dana60 to hold up to 42" and that much gearing.

 

[u2slow]

nOOB tech questions (regarding '05+):
What line needs to be crossed to justify upgrade from factory or cromo 35-spline axle shafts to 40 spline?

What kind of improvement, percentage-wise, just going from factory to cromo axle shafts?

Isn't the logical upgrade the factory 1550 shafts? I don't know their metallurgy.

 

[gozuki]

I have 3 of the new 1550 long side axles posted for sale, and if you haven't handled one they are rediculously beefy.

 

['84 Bronco II]

nOOB tech questions (regarding '05+):
What line needs to be crossed to justify upgrade from factory or cromo 35-spline axle shafts to 40 spline?

What kind of improvement, percentage-wise, just going from factory to cromo axle shafts?

Axle will be dealing with 20X11 steel rims / 42X14 F rated tires / 100+:1 final drive ratio.

Assuming the joints and yokes don't become the weak point, a 40 spline shaft is 48% stronger than a 35 spline shaft of the same material using the major diameters at the splines for calculation (1.71" and 1.50" respectively).

As far as factory vs. "chromo," that is harder to give a simple answer. I am not sure what grade of steel is used in the factory 1480 and 1550 shafts, but based on how well they hold up and the fact that Ford has been using 1541H on its rear axle shafts for some time now, I think Ford/Dana Spicer is using 1541H which has a yield stress of about 180,000PSI depending on heat treatment. 1040 and 1050 are commonly used on OEM axles and have a yield strength around 120,000-165,000PSI.

There are several grades of Chromoly steel, the most common of which are 4130, 4140, and 4340, and their strength varies wildly with heat treatment. Most "Chromo" axles are 4340 and have a quoted yield strength around 200,000-240,000PSI, but again that varies wildly with the exact heat treatment used. 300M, A.K.A. 4340M, is a special vacuum-melted grade of 4340 with additional silicon content, and is usually quoted around 250,000-280,000PSI, although it also varies considerably with the particular heat treatment used.

So to answer your second question, typical 4340 aftermarket axles are about probably 20-50% stronger than stock shafts depending on the exact materials in question.

The weight of the vehicle and how you are using it is also a big factor in this. Based on your posts, I'd venture to say you'd probably be fine with the factory 1550 shafts.

No point to go 40sp in a Dana 60.

The ring and pinion will give up before good 300M 35sp shafts

Factory 1550 shafts are the logical upgrade, but it will really depends what you do with your rig. Something heavy will need more than a dana60 to hold up to 42" and that much gearing.

I don't agree with that, especially with the 10" gears in the '05+ axles (assuming you didn't downgrade to 9.75" when you regear). I have seen 4340 and 300M 35 spline shafts break without taking out the ring and pinion on Dana 60s, although fatigue probably played a role. However, going to 40 spline and 1550, CP750N joints, or "Big Bells" will greatly increase the odds of breaking a gear set instead of the axle

Here's "Desert Dogg" from the old board breaking a 300M 35 spline RCV in his low pinion Chevy Dana 60:

 

[Bebop]

Unless he fluxed his ring and pinion, you don't really know if he broke the R&P or not.

I'll add to the fact that he was loading the parts in reverse, which favors the LP R&P and makes it worse for a shaft that has been fatiguing in one direction.

And you'll always have the counter example to what I say.

I was just stating my opinion.

 

['84 Bronco II]

Unless he fluxed his ring and pinion, you don't really know if he broke the R&P or not.

I'll add to the fact that he was loading the parts in reverse, which favors the LP R&P and makes it worse for a shaft that has been fatiguing in one direction.

And you'll always have the counter example to what I say.

I was just stating my opinion.

No need to take it personally, opinions are good, but the way you made that statement made it sound like the ring and pinion on a Dana 60 will always break before a 35 spline 300M shaft, which I know not to be the case. Perhaps that is true for a fresh shaft as all the breaks I've seen were on shafts that had been run for a while and were probably fatigue related (including Dersert Dogg's as he said he was running those shafts for 8 years before he broke that one). I do agree that 4340 and 300M 35 spline shafts are a pretty good match for the strength of a 9.75" Dana 60 gear set. I would be really interested to know just how much stronger the '05+ 10" gears are though. Just the difference in diameter would suggest only a 3% gain, but I doubt Ford/Dana Spicer would have tooled up for a different design for only a 3% gain. Then there's the aftermarket 35 spline pinion and 9310 gear sets and I am not sure where those fall in the Dana 60 hierarchy.

The main reasons to consider 40 spline for a Dana 60 are fatigue life and cost. Over at ECGS, 4340 40 spline 1550 '05+ Dana 60 shafts are only $100 more than 35 spline versions of the same ($1,230 for 40 spline without joints). The cost of the carriers is also a wash; ARB is the same price 35 or 40 spline, and it is less than a $100 difference between the 35 and 40 spline versions of the Grizzly locker. If you are going with drive flanges, it is the same price over at ECGS whether you go with 35 or 40 spline ($225). 4340 40 spline should be about 10-15% stronger than 35 spline 300M again assuming that the joints aren't the weak point.

300M RCVs list for $3,500, Spidertrax 35 spline 300M list for $3,200 without joints (1480 too), Branik is $1,900 just for 35 spline 300M inners without joints (they don't make 35 spline 300M outers), but with direct drive outers and their "Legacy" 1550 joints you are looking at $4,240. The ECGS 4340 40 spline setup is $1,950 with 1550 Superjoints and should be as strong or stronger than any of the 300M 35 spline options and have a lifetime warranty like the RCVs.


More '05+ Dana 60 info I would be curious to know is whether people are breaking the 1550 Spicer joints or the stock 35 spline shafts first? From what I've seen, Spicer 1480s are weaker than the stock shafts. If the Spicer 1550 joints are stronger than the stock shafts, I wonder how well they hold up to 4340 35 spline shafts or whether a bushing-style joint becomes necessary.

 

[ScottRS]

nOOB tech questions (regarding '05+):
What line needs to be crossed to justify upgrade from factory or cromo 35-spline axle shafts to 40 spline?

What kind of improvement, percentage-wise, just going from factory to cromo axle shafts?

Axle will be dealing with 20X11 steel rims / 42X14 F rated tires / 100+:1 final drive ratio.

Back in the day, Bobby was breaking 35sp Spicer stuff around 7k ft-lb IIRC. Import chromo 35sp aftermarket broke around 12k ft-lb. He couldn't break Jack's 300M stuff (CTM) as his machine maxed around 15k ft-lb (also off of memory). Import chromo was typically stated as 4340 but heat treat is/was not typically as good as domestic. Bang for the buck on the import stuff was impressive though. That was shaft breakage, not ear carnage, on 1480 shafts at the time.

 

['84 Bronco II]

Let's talk about the weld-on high steering options out there, there a preferred kit? Quite a lot of variation in price, and not a whole lot of information about height, wheel clearance, tie rod distance from the pivot axis, or Ackerman built into the design. I would like to hear peoples experience with the different kits out there and whether they would recommend them or not.

My Situation:
I am building a rock buggy with full hydraulic steering, so I don't care about provisions for drag links. I would like to get 45-50 degrees of steering angle without a mile long ram and keep the ram mounted as high as possible. Since I am primarily interested in low-speed, high-traction performance, I think Ackerman geometry is beneficial. I also don't want to end up super wide so I am planning on running a 17" wheel with 4.25-4.5" of backspacing and it looks like some options might interfere or be close.

Artec $270

Pros

• Good weld area
• Looks like plenty of room for deep backspacing (wheel pictured is 17" and has 4" backspacing)

Cons

• Most expensive option
• Looks like little to no Ackerman
• Looks pretty long

Barnes 4WD $115

Pros

• Inexpensive
• Tierod mounting point close to the pivot axis

Cons

• Weld area is lacking compared to other designs
• Looks like little to no Ackerman
• 4.25" maximum backspacing per Barnes
• Not quite as high as Artec, Busted Knuckle, JHF, etc.

Busted Knuckle $170

Pros

• Lots of weld area (The top plate wraps around the knuckle)

Cons

• Looks like no Ackerman or maybe even slightly negative Ackerman
• Arm looks long

JHF $190

Pros

• Lots of weld area
• Misalignment bungs/weld washers
• Short arms (40 degrees with 8" ram, 50 degrees with 10" ram)
• Seems to be the "go-to" kit?

Cons

• Less Ackerman than stock
• One of the more expensive options

Motobilt $199

Pros

• Highest mounting option
• Total beef (Tons of weld area)
• Short arms

Cons

• No Hydro-only version
• One of the more expensive options

TMR Customs $160

Pros

• One of the less expensive options
• Short tie rod mounting location

Cons

• No Hydro-only version
• One of the lowest mounting heights
• Less weld area than most designs

Any others out there worthy of consideration?

 

[CDA 455 II]

^^^^ How do I post this entire post on the OP? ^^^^

 

[Sterlingfire]

Let's talk about the weld-on high steering options out there, there a preferred kit? Quite a lot of variation in price, and not a whole lot of information about height, wheel clearance, tie rod distance from the pivot axis, or Ackerman built into the design. I would like to hear peoples experience with the different kits out there and whether they would recommend them or not.

My Situation:
I am building a rock buggy with full hydraulic steering, so I don't care about provisions for drag links. I would like to get 45-50 degrees of steering angle without a mile long ram and keep the ram mounted as high as possible. Since I am primarily interested in low-speed, high-traction performance, I think Ackerman geometry is beneficial. I also don't want to end up super wide so I am planning on running a 17" wheel with 4.25-4.5" of backspacing and it looks like some options might interfere or be close.

Artec $270

Pros

• Good weld area
• Looks like plenty of room for deep backspacing (wheel pictured is 17" and has 4" backspacing)

Cons

• Most expensive option
• Looks like little to no Ackerman
• Looks pretty long

Barnes 4WD $115

Pros

• Inexpensive
• Tierod mounting point close to the pivot axis

Cons

• Weld area is lacking compared to other designs
• Looks like little to no Ackerman
• 4.25" maximum backspacing per Barnes
• Not quite as high as Artec, Busted Knuckle, JHF, etc.

Busted Knuckle $170

Pros

• Lots of weld area (The top plate wraps around the knuckle)

Cons

• Looks like no Ackerman or maybe even slightly negative Ackerman
• Arm looks long

JHF $190

Pros

• Lots of weld area
• Misalignment bungs/weld washers
• Short arms (40 degrees with 8" ram, 50 degrees with 10" ram)
• Seems to be the "go-to" kit?

Cons

• Less Ackerman than stock
• One of the more expensive options

Motobilt $199

Pros

• Highest mounting option
• Total beef (Tons of weld area)
• Short arms

Cons

• No Hydro-only version
• One of the more expensive options

TMR Customs $160

Pros

• One of the less expensive options
• Short tie rod mounting location

Cons

• No Hydro-only version
• One of the lowest mounting heights
• Less weld area than most designs

Any others out there worthy of consideration?

In order to get the full 45° steering using an 8" ram, you need to mount the heim/ tre at 5.75" from the centerline of the ball joint.
I'm using weaver fab bolt ons and can choose the mount point for my ram. I will be using an 8" on mine. Obviously not what you're looking for, but an idea of what it takes to get the most out of steering with the least amount of ram.

 

[Bggrnchvy]

If you're using the JHF arms, make sure your axle has 05-08 knuckles or be prepared to make some modifications.

 

['84 Bronco II]

In order to get the full 45° steering using an 8" ram, you need to mount the heim/ tre at 5.75" from the centerline of the ball joint.
I'm using weaver fab bolt ons and can choose the mount point for my ram. I will be using an 8" on mine. Obviously not what you're looking for, but an idea of what it takes to get the most out of steering with the least amount of ram.

Thanks, that is helpful to know.

If you're using the JHF arms, make sure your axle has 05-08 knuckles or be prepared to make some modifications.

I've got '07 axles, but thanks for mentioning it. Several manufacturers say they have etched lines to show you where to grind depending on the year of the knuckle.

 

[Bggrnchvy]

Thanks, that is helpful to know.



I've got '07 axles, but thanks for mentioning it. Several manufacturers say they have etched lines to show you where to grind depending on the year of the knuckle.

Ok, then the JHF arms are a solid choice IMO.

Jesse doesn't leave enough material for the later knuckles and as of maybe 6 months ago did not have plans to redesign or make a new design for them. They'll work, but you get to do a little fab to get there.

 

[Grendel]

Anyone know if the high steer is different for the "big boy"?

I know it is for the 2013+ brakes.

 

[pennsylvaniaboy]

I ahve used the artec, it went together great. I added an extra plate to the outside that goes from the top, all the way to the bottom of the stock steering arm, all welded in. To break of the knuckle, it would have to shear the whole side, then pull the plate over the arm. The artec kit also clears the busted knuckle brake kit as well. I used the crossover kit as it allows you to play with the mountinig locations of the tie rod and ram.

One this to note, you have to push the tie rod forward if you want to clear the diff. all of the arms shown do that. Also to get 50* you need a 10" ram. I would reccomend doing 1550 shafts at the same time.