'05+ Ford Super Duty Dana 60 Axle Tech & Info

[YeeP]

Nope

So camber then?

EDIT: ok I looked it up...
"Kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber change with steering input. With a positive kingpin angle, the outside wheel in a corner will gain positive camber and the inside wheel will loose positive camber. As the outside wheel is the heavily loaded wheel during cornering, this increase in positive camber acts against bump camber and will reduce the cornering capacity of the outside tyre. "

Correct me if Im wrong, this seems like something that would concern me only if I had an independent suspension where the upper balljoint was connected to an arm that traveled in a different arc than the arm that was connected to the lower balljoint.

EDIT2: From the article that has the image you posted:
"Kingpin angle is a measure of the angle of the suspension steer axis relative to vertical in front view. The steer axis (or kingpin axis) on a conventional double wishbone suspension passes through the upper control arm and lower control arm ball joints. On a MacPherson strut, the kingpin axis is defined by a line passing through the strut top bearing and the lower ball joint. Kingpin angle is measured in Degrees and is positive when the top of the steering axis points towards the centre of the car. Scrub radius is the distance from the steer axis to the centre of the tyre contact patch at ground level and wheel centre offset is the distance from the kingpin axis to the wheel centre. All three are shown in the figure below."

 

[Bebop]

Nope

Correct me if Im wrong, this seems like something that would concern me only if I had an independent suspension where the upper balljoint was connected to an arm that traveled in a different arc than the arm that was connected to the lower balljoint.

Kinda.

The relation between camber and kp angle is fixed on a solid axle and you can't change it, yes.
But camber is different than kp angle even on solid axles.

 

[YeeP]

Nope

Kinda.

The relation between camber and kp angle is fixed on a solid axle and you can't change it, yes.
But camber is different than kp angle even on solid axles.

Ok, reading more about it. Thanks for highlighting it.

 

['84 Bronco II]

Honestly, I think it is a little silly trying to calculate the steering stroke. In order to capture all of the variables, you are going to have a fairly complex mathematical model that is going to take a lot of inputs that are difficult to accurately measure easily.

Build your axle and then simply measure the amount of stroke it takes to achieve your desired steering angle. Then buy a Ram that length or one that is longer and internally limit the ram. It seems backwards to me to buy a ram and then try to design everything else around the ram.


Does anyone have the caliper mounting bolt spacing for a F450/550 knuckle? I have a '07 F350 axle I can measure and a '00 axle I can measure which I think I've read has the same caliper mounting as the '13+ axles.

 

[Bebop]

Honestly, I think it is a little silly trying to calculate the steering stroke. In order to capture all of the variables, you are going to have a fairly complex mathematical model that is going to take a lot of inputs that are difficult to accurately measure easily.

Build your axle and then simply measure the amount of stroke it takes to achieve your desired steering angle. Then buy a Ram that length or one that is longer and internally limit the ram. It seems backwards to me to buy a ram and then try to design everything else around the ram.

This.

 

[YeeP]

Honestly, I think it is a little silly trying to calculate the steering stroke. In order to capture all of the variables, you are going to have a fairly complex mathematical model that is going to take a lot of inputs that are difficult to accurately measure easily.

Build your axle and then simply measure the amount of stroke it takes to achieve your desired steering angle. Then buy a Ram that length or one that is longer and internally limit the ram. It seems backwards to me to buy a ram and then try to design everything else around the ram.

I agree. I do think though that with most high steer applications for this axle you do have a set position where the rod end will end up. In addition, the rams that you are going to choose from will vary in diameter, and width, as will your axle housing per application (I am running a 609 with 05+ outers). While Im not suggesting that you can have all questions answered and set in stone before making a purchase, it would be nice to take an "educated guess" toward where you want to end up at the end of the day.

I agree with you on buying the ram first, being a bad idea. Also agree about buying a ram that is longer, and internally limiting.

 

[TrailTamer]

Does anyone have the caliper mounting bolt spacing for a F450/550 knuckle?

What year F450/550?

I have a '07 F350 axle I can measure and a '00 axle I can measure which I think I've read has the same caliper mounting as the '13+ axles.

That’s what I found out. 95-04 and ‘13+ share same caliper mounting bolt distance. I am still waiting for someone to do some test fitting on whether ‘13+ brakes can be a direct bolt-on upgrade to 99-04 (make for an excellent brake upgrade on older tow rigs)

 

['84 Bronco II]

What year F450/550?

That’s what I found out. 95-04 and ‘13+ share same caliper mounting bolt distance. I am still waiting for someone to do some test fitting on whether ‘13+ brakes can be a direct bolt-on upgrade to 99-04 (make for an excellent brake upgrade on older tow rigs)

'05+ for the F450/550. Do the knuckles and brakes have changes through the years similar to the F250/350 stuff?

I am mostly after the bigger ball joints and better spacing on the F450/550 knuckles and "C"s, as well as being able to cut up a less desirable axle for parts. It would be nice to figure out a factory brake setup that would work to avoid having to shell out for bling aftermarket brake parts, and ideally fit in a 17" wheel.

 

[Bebop]

'05+ for the F450/550. Do the knuckles and brakes have changes through the years similar to the F250/350 stuff?

yes

 

[Bebop]

I am mostly after the bigger ball joints

they are the same as 250/350

as well as being able to cut up a less desirable axle for parts.

They are more expensive than 250/350 stuff

It would be nice to figure out a factory brake setup that would work to avoid having to shell out for bling aftermarket brake parts, and ideally fit in a 17" wheel.

I don't think it's happening. Rotors are like 14"+ Calipers are huuuuge.

 

['84 Bronco II]

yes

Do you have a break down on the changes?

they are the same as 250/350

Are you sure? Someone posted some comparison pictures somewhere on here and the F450/550 ball joints were way bigger than the F250/350 stuff, and Hydrodynamic mentions them being different in post #219.

Rockauto shows Moog part numbers K500141 (lower) and K500087 (upper) for a 2005 F550 versus K8607T (lower) K80026 (upper) for a 2005 F350.

They are more expensive than 250/350 stuff

You can use the 2WD beam axles for the parts I am interested in. My Junkyard charges the same price regardless of what the axle came out of if it came down to using a 4x4 axle.

I don't think it's happening. Rotors are like 14"+ Calipers are huuuuge.

Trying to get a F250/350 brake set up adapted is probably the best (cheap) route to go.

I didn't realize/remember HYDRODYNAMIC was using an F450/550 in his build and already posted up his brake solution in post #54

 

[Bebop]

Do you have a break down on the changes?

Not of the top of my head.
I have notes somewhere but they date back from 2018 when I built my buggy.

Are you sure? Someone posted some comparison pictures somewhere on here and the F450/550 ball joints were way bigger than the F250/350 stuff, and Hydrodynamic mentions them being different in post #219.

Rockauto shows Moog part numbers K500141 (lower) and K500087 (upper) for a 2005 F550 versus K8607T (lower) K80026 (upper) for a 2005 F350.

I may be wrong.

• 1994-1999 Dodge 2500/3500 4x4
• 1992-1997 Ford F-350 4x4 (straight-axle Dana 60 only)
• 1999-2019 Ford F-250/350 Super Duty 4x4
• 1999-2004 Ford F-450/550 4x4
• 1999-2005 Ford Excursion 4x4

These guys are the same
Maybe not the 05+ 450/550

You can use the 2WD beam axles for the parts I am interested in. My Junkyard charges the same price regardless of what the axle came out of if it came down to using a 4x4 axle.

That's a cool ass JY.

Trying to get a F250/350 brake set up adapted is probably the best (cheap) route to go.

I didn't realize/remember HYDRODYNAMIC was using an F450/550 in his build and already posted up his brake solution in post #54

Yup

 

[Sterlingfire]

Honestly, I think it is a little silly trying to calculate the steering stroke. In order to capture all of the variables, you are going to have a fairly complex mathematical model that is going to take a lot of inputs that are difficult to accurately measure easily.

Build your axle and then simply measure the amount of stroke it takes to achieve your desired steering angle. Then buy a Ram that length or one that is longer and internally limit the ram. It seems backwards to me to buy a ram and then try to design everything else around the ram.


Does anyone have the caliper mounting bolt spacing for a F450/550 knuckle? I have a '07 F350 axle I can measure and a '00 axle I can measure which I think I've read has the same caliper mounting as the '13+ axles.

You are just trying to make things easy
But honestly, you really only have 2 choices with ram sizes for these axles...8" and 10" stroke. Bore size won't have any impact on stroke. IMO bore/ rod size is the only thing you will need to decide on, considering you'll need a pump that can push enough fluid.
The math is really only for making an educated guess on mounting location. My arms don't have holes in them, so i needed to know approximately where the tie rods will mount so i know where the bolt holes go. The ram doesn't care about the swing arc of the tie rod, and IMO will be very close using my equation. Ackerman is not great on these axles to begin with, so if i end up with at least close to stock(I'm not sure yet with weaver arms) I'll be happy, especially on a trail rig trailer queen.
I may pull the tie rod off the other axle I have just to check where i might end up and if my math is even near right i really don't want to mess up my bolt holes

 

[Bebop]

PSC has 8.75 and 9" stroke options ;)

 

['84 Bronco II]

PSC has 8.75 and 9" stroke options ;)

11" too if you go with a 3" ram.

I may pull the tie rod off the other axle I have just to check where i might end up and if my math is even near right i really don't want to mess up my bolt holes

Do this. Super easy and will give you 100% the right answer.

 

[Sterlingfire]

PSC has 8.75 and 9" stroke options ;)

Well, i guess i was wrong
I have never looked at the psc site to be perfectly honest... so i spoke out of my ass
Those ram sizes make it even easier, just go with stock tie rod mounting and you'll get lock to lock steering. If you want more locate the tie rods closer to knuckle. Using my math will get you close in that case as well, unless you want 50°

 

[Bebop]

Stock lock to lock kinda sucks.

I ground my stops and will do it again to gain more angle.

 

[Sterlingfire]

11" too if you go with a 3" ram.



Do this. Super easy and will give you 100% the right answer.

I mean, considering the fact that when you use my equation and input the stock tie rod location, you get 9" of necessary stroke to achieve lock to lock. This has been confirmed as the right ram stroke in this application many times over for lock to lock steering. Trying to go to 50° is where it gets complicated.

 

[Sterlingfire]

Stock lock to lock kinda sucks.

I ground my stops and will do it again to gain more angle.

How many degrees do you think you're getting from lock to lock? I thought it was close to 45°?

 

[Bebop]

42 ish ?

 

[Sterlingfire]

42 ish ?

That's not bad for someone like me who's building to an already set in stone bunch of parameters, but on a custom buggy you could always use more.

 

[TrailTamer]

I don't think it's happening. Rotors are like 14"+ Calipers are huuuuge.

+13’ Super Duty came with 17” wheels (steels only I think) from factory and their rotors are a hair over 14” diameter. I’d imagine aftermarket aluminum 17” wheels will still fit considering you don’t use high backspacing wheels for off road application.

And the less backspacing, or + offset, is desired when running larger tires anyway, to keep kingpin/ball joint center line closer to center of the tire at ground.

The first pic is undesired. Make for hard, high effort steering

Second pic is preferred.

 

[CDA 455 II]

FYI:
OP has axle info😎

 

[Bebop]

+13’ Super Duty came with 17” wheels (steels only I think) from factory and their rotors are a hair over 14” diameter. I’d imagine aftermarket aluminum 17” wheels will still fit considering you don’t use high backspacing wheels for off road application.

Maybe the wheels will fit. IDK. I'm not sure.
So you're saying that we need to use low BS wheels ?

And the less backspacing, or + offset, is desired when running larger tires anyway, to keep kingpin/ball joint center line closer to center of the tire at ground.

Right, so low BS wheels is better ?

The first pic is undesired. Make for hard, high effort steering

Second pic is preferred.

Tire size (as well as KP angle) plays a massive role in scrub radius. I can't imagine that a super duty on 35s or my buggy on 43s or a Trophy Truck on 40s would need the same super low BS wheels based on the fact they're "offroad application".

Also, some people will argue that a high scrub will help when trying to find traction over ledges and stuff as you can work the steering to get more grip.

 

[TrailTamer]

Maybe the wheels will fit. IDK. I'm not sure.
So you're saying that we need to use low BS wheels ?


Right, so low BS wheels is better ?

I don’t necessarily suggesting to run 2” BS wheels. Just less than whatever OEM wheels was and a good match to whatever tire you’re going to run. 35” tire don’t need that much less of BS wheels, but you’ll want low BS if running 54”

Try visualize the where the kingpin/balljoint center line will be at ground if the tire is taller. It’ll move to outside of tire if you don’t change to a lower BS wheel.

Tire size (as well as KP angle) plays a massive role in scrub radius. I can't imagine that a super duty on 35s or my buggy on 43s or a Trophy Truck on 40s would need the same super low BS wheels based on the fact they're "offroad application".

Steering while stationary, steer from left to right; left tire will want to rotate forward while right tire will want to rotate backward. Make for high effort steering especially if spooled/welded. Not as much of an issue when full hydro and purpose built off road rig, tho.

Also, some people will argue that a high scrub will help when trying to find traction over ledges and stuff as you can work the steering to get more grip.

I gets what you’re saying.

 

[Bebop]

I gets what you’re saying.

Yessir

 

[u2slow]

While on the topic of 17's... Stock 17" steelies may be offered, but doesn't mean the usual aftermarket stuff or alloys will clear.

 

['84 Bronco II]

While on the topic of 17's... Stock 17" steelies may be offered, but doesn't mean the usual aftermarket stuff or alloys will clear.

I know of several people with '13+ axles and aftermarket 17" aluminum wheels.

 

[u2slow]

I know of several people with '13+ axles and aftermarket 17" aluminum wheels.

They found the right ones... obviously.

 

['84 Bronco II]

They found the right ones... obviously.

One guy just took the aftermarket 17" wheels off his '11 F250 he bought before the brake sizes changed and put them on his '17 F250 when he bought it new. I am sure there are aftermarket 17" wheels that won't work because it is very close, but I have yet to hear of any wheels that didn't fit.