rattle_snake
Fuckwits
Congrats.
What was AFR during break-in?
When is test drive, since, your almost 'done' now?
What was AFR during break-in?
When is test drive, since, your almost 'done' now?
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
AFR was I think right around 13.8 - looked pretty good - pretty pleased with 'Holley' 👍
Test drive hopefully in a few weeks - have to put the exhaust back in and batten down a few hatches, but so far so good. Friends in town visiting for a week right now, and have some family events coming up soon, but nibbling on it when I can. I'm just glad to know it 'runs'. Hoping to have it in Moab 3 months from now for our annual club gig there...
Test drive hopefully in a few weeks - have to put the exhaust back in and batten down a few hatches, but so far so good. Friends in town visiting for a week right now, and have some family events coming up soon, but nibbling on it when I can. I'm just glad to know it 'runs'. Hoping to have it in Moab 3 months from now for our annual club gig there...
Last edited:
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
ok - been busy since the successful engine first-fire/break-in, mostly concerning the exhaust. Fire = bad, and things got pretty toasty underneath the cab, and even the driveshaft got hot, and I'm fairly certain if unaddressed the heat will melt the grease right outta the u-joints, and that's no bueno. So...the following is what I've been doing since to mitigate the heat.
First, sent the pipes to Jet Hot. Next, slapped on a LOT of DEI Floor and Tunnel Shield II reflective heat insulation to the underside of the cab and driveline, and put more on the tanks - it looks like a satellite under there now.
I also fabbed up three heat shields to go between the exhaust and the driveline and to protect the charcoal canisters/evap plumbing, shift cables, and above the rear muffler. To ensure the peel-n-stick insulation had the best chance of remaining put I had the heat shields powder coated for maximum paint adhesion.
This...I think...will do it, and I hope it does because I don't know how to do it any better. Bonus is I get to keep the second gas tank...which would have to come out if this doesn't work, and I reallyreallyreally want the second tank.
What else......oh, fuel: Cleaned all of the leaky aviation sealant and redesigned/reassembled everything with good ole Teflon tape. Redesigned the EFI tank head unit using steel NPT-AN fittings, and I'm waiting for my welder to get my fuel tank sending units done so I can reinstall them.
Also broke out the bender and fabbed up the basis for the rear winch mount/rock bumper; the front is next. Soon as I have the sending units back from my welder I'll have the fuel system back together, and we can fire it back up and resume testing.
The plan is to have the 'core' tested (all driveline/suspension/etc.), and when the go, steer, and stop are all good to go we'll take it to our local off-road park for trials, and if all of that goes well...7 weeks from now we're taking it to Moab.
Lots of DEI 'Floor and Tunnel Shield II' -
exhaust reinstalled without the driveline and shields -
these are the heat shields, with the insulation applied towards the 'hot' side -
main heat shield between the exhaust and intermediate shaft -
painted the bottom side gray to make things easier to 'see' -
and the additional bolt-on top shield to protect the fuel charcoal canisters and plumbing, and shift linkage -
...and then squeeeeeeze in the driveshafts... -
this is the upper 'fin' installed shielding the cable shifter and fuel plumbing...kinda hard to see tho -
Steel fuel fittings and 90* hose ends -
Core of the rear winch bumper -
First, sent the pipes to Jet Hot. Next, slapped on a LOT of DEI Floor and Tunnel Shield II reflective heat insulation to the underside of the cab and driveline, and put more on the tanks - it looks like a satellite under there now.
I also fabbed up three heat shields to go between the exhaust and the driveline and to protect the charcoal canisters/evap plumbing, shift cables, and above the rear muffler. To ensure the peel-n-stick insulation had the best chance of remaining put I had the heat shields powder coated for maximum paint adhesion.
This...I think...will do it, and I hope it does because I don't know how to do it any better. Bonus is I get to keep the second gas tank...which would have to come out if this doesn't work, and I reallyreallyreally want the second tank.
What else......oh, fuel: Cleaned all of the leaky aviation sealant and redesigned/reassembled everything with good ole Teflon tape. Redesigned the EFI tank head unit using steel NPT-AN fittings, and I'm waiting for my welder to get my fuel tank sending units done so I can reinstall them.
Also broke out the bender and fabbed up the basis for the rear winch mount/rock bumper; the front is next. Soon as I have the sending units back from my welder I'll have the fuel system back together, and we can fire it back up and resume testing.
The plan is to have the 'core' tested (all driveline/suspension/etc.), and when the go, steer, and stop are all good to go we'll take it to our local off-road park for trials, and if all of that goes well...7 weeks from now we're taking it to Moab.
Lots of DEI 'Floor and Tunnel Shield II' -
exhaust reinstalled without the driveline and shields -
these are the heat shields, with the insulation applied towards the 'hot' side -
main heat shield between the exhaust and intermediate shaft -
painted the bottom side gray to make things easier to 'see' -
and the additional bolt-on top shield to protect the fuel charcoal canisters and plumbing, and shift linkage -
...and then squeeeeeeze in the driveshafts... -
this is the upper 'fin' installed shielding the cable shifter and fuel plumbing...kinda hard to see tho -
Steel fuel fittings and 90* hose ends -
Core of the rear winch bumper -
Last edited:
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
Discovered the transmission shifter levers and neutral safety switch were leaking, so replaced all three, and modified one of my big C-clamps to nicely 'squeeze' the big seal into the trans case - worked awesome -
Oh and once fully filled, a 46RH with a 'deep' pan will drain out almost exactly 2 gallons of ATF...
Meanwhile...the kids have been enjoying playing around in the Jeep, and our brandnewest Jessi is eatin' and poopin' like a rock star 👍
Oh and once fully filled, a 46RH with a 'deep' pan will drain out almost exactly 2 gallons of ATF...
Meanwhile...the kids have been enjoying playing around in the Jeep, and our brandnewest Jessi is eatin' and poopin' like a rock star 👍
Last edited:
rattle_snake
Fuckwits
Nice work on the blankies. Hope that solution works out for you.
When is first test drive?
When is first test drive?
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
final parts for the fuel system should be in today, and if all that goes back together like it's supposed to we'll be rolling it out of the shop this weekend. Once the go, steering and woah are confirmed good and makes a lap or two around the block...and then over some rocks in the back yard...we'll take it to our local offroad park to flex it out/make sure this shit doesn't hit that shit, and if that goes well we haul it to Moab at the end of September 👍
redneckK20s
Well-known member
Holy crap that is some nice looking work you've done there. Way too clean underneath.
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
...for now :) , but thanks 👍
The fuel system is all back together and ready to re-fill the tank. Very few things remaining before rolling the Dakota out of the shop. I'll be focusing the next couple days on checking bolts, cotter pins, temp battery hold down, then re-connect EFI plugs, reinstall the fuses, and it's ready to fire back up, and test the tranny. Lot that still has to go just right...but shit's gettin' real ovah he'ayh (y)
So...as I was re-assessing the fuel system/components I thought about having two connected fuel pickup units at each end of the tank to help delay a fuel-starvation situation common with long tanks, and came across some cool Walbro pickup units (I think originally for snowmobiles, but with 5/16 hose ends these are great for 'anything'), and while I'd pondered dual pickups I ultimately went with a single unit. I built it with two hoses to act as a 'spring' to gently press the pickup unit down to the bottom of the tank - maybe help prevent it from sliding around. Using two corrugated submersible in-tank nylon hoses and clean EFI pinch clamps I made the below sending unit - aught to work great.
Since the pickup is a mesh screen...the science is when the fuel gets very low and uncovers the pickup unit the remaining fuel wicking on the mesh acts like a diaphragm and it will suck itself closed and may help prevent excessive air from getting into the system. I'm using a solenoid-style 30 gph low-pressure feed pump, and no pump likes to run 'dry', but if/when I get very low on fuel...and up on a steep angle...the pickup unit is supposed to suck itself closed - temporarily, to avoid sucking in air, until such time as it dries out and re-opens or is recovered by fuel. And naturally...the second tank is intended to make any of the above 'running out of fuel' scenarios moot...but I always ponder stuff into oblivion...
Not sure how much it will 'help'...but I don't think it will hurt(?). It's either this or just a regular primitive tube down to the bottom of the tank.
Also, to make adjusting the float 'just so' and making sure everything clears nicely I cored out two windows from my mock-up gas tank -
The fuel system is all back together and ready to re-fill the tank. Very few things remaining before rolling the Dakota out of the shop. I'll be focusing the next couple days on checking bolts, cotter pins, temp battery hold down, then re-connect EFI plugs, reinstall the fuses, and it's ready to fire back up, and test the tranny. Lot that still has to go just right...but shit's gettin' real ovah he'ayh (y)
So...as I was re-assessing the fuel system/components I thought about having two connected fuel pickup units at each end of the tank to help delay a fuel-starvation situation common with long tanks, and came across some cool Walbro pickup units (I think originally for snowmobiles, but with 5/16 hose ends these are great for 'anything'), and while I'd pondered dual pickups I ultimately went with a single unit. I built it with two hoses to act as a 'spring' to gently press the pickup unit down to the bottom of the tank - maybe help prevent it from sliding around. Using two corrugated submersible in-tank nylon hoses and clean EFI pinch clamps I made the below sending unit - aught to work great.
Since the pickup is a mesh screen...the science is when the fuel gets very low and uncovers the pickup unit the remaining fuel wicking on the mesh acts like a diaphragm and it will suck itself closed and may help prevent excessive air from getting into the system. I'm using a solenoid-style 30 gph low-pressure feed pump, and no pump likes to run 'dry', but if/when I get very low on fuel...and up on a steep angle...the pickup unit is supposed to suck itself closed - temporarily, to avoid sucking in air, until such time as it dries out and re-opens or is recovered by fuel. And naturally...the second tank is intended to make any of the above 'running out of fuel' scenarios moot...but I always ponder stuff into oblivion...
Not sure how much it will 'help'...but I don't think it will hurt(?). It's either this or just a regular primitive tube down to the bottom of the tank.
Also, to make adjusting the float 'just so' and making sure everything clears nicely I cored out two windows from my mock-up gas tank -
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
sweet - it runs and drives, and overall I think it's "ok". Have to dial in the idle and a couple small power steering fitting leaks (also I think from the enormously disappointing aviation #3 thread sealant), but so far I think it's pretty good to go.
The one thing that has me worried/curious is that in the 20 minutes or so of tooling around the engine had crept up to about 210, 30* more than the 180* thermostat in it - no big loads, but also not much airflow, but at the same time the idle kept trying to creep up - not sure why, but in that same 20 minutes it started off at a nice 700rpm or so and ended up as a sustained 1200 rpm or so...not sure why - possibly 'linkage', but I'm hoping that as the rpm's crept up trying to make 'power' that has something to do with why the temps were trying to creep up, too. I'm analyzing all of that now (along with re-installing the two power steering cooler npt fittings - both of which were leaking due to the woefully inadequate #3 sealant), and hopefully will have it back together and more testing this afternoon or tomorrow.
I also noticed that the coolant 'overflow' reservoir indeed did capture...I dunno, maybe a couple pints of coolant that pumped itself out of the radiator...and sucked itself back in when I checked this morning. Not sure if that means anything (other than it works)...maybe I need a higher rated cap - mine's a 16 psi cap now...
The fan is pulling a ton of air through the radiator...but ultimately one of my biggest fears of needing a bigger radiator than the OE unit may prove valid. Once I get the idle back under control and resume testing I'll know for sure.
The one thing that has me worried/curious is that in the 20 minutes or so of tooling around the engine had crept up to about 210, 30* more than the 180* thermostat in it - no big loads, but also not much airflow, but at the same time the idle kept trying to creep up - not sure why, but in that same 20 minutes it started off at a nice 700rpm or so and ended up as a sustained 1200 rpm or so...not sure why - possibly 'linkage', but I'm hoping that as the rpm's crept up trying to make 'power' that has something to do with why the temps were trying to creep up, too. I'm analyzing all of that now (along with re-installing the two power steering cooler npt fittings - both of which were leaking due to the woefully inadequate #3 sealant), and hopefully will have it back together and more testing this afternoon or tomorrow.
I also noticed that the coolant 'overflow' reservoir indeed did capture...I dunno, maybe a couple pints of coolant that pumped itself out of the radiator...and sucked itself back in when I checked this morning. Not sure if that means anything (other than it works)...maybe I need a higher rated cap - mine's a 16 psi cap now...
The fan is pulling a ton of air through the radiator...but ultimately one of my biggest fears of needing a bigger radiator than the OE unit may prove valid. Once I get the idle back under control and resume testing I'll know for sure.
Last edited:
Mr. Mindless
Well-known member
temp the rad in and outlet. pushing a bit of coolant at 210 and then sucking it back in sounds healthy. I'd have rather seen the overflow end up lower than it had started out on a fresh fill though - sounds like there's minimal entrapped air if it burped and then sucked and left you at the same level.
I'd double check timing and advance if it's behaving hot at light load. And probably make sure all the spark plugs look even. a vacuum leak could give you more R's and a lean running condition too? Stabs in the dark... good hunting
I'd double check timing and advance if it's behaving hot at light load. And probably make sure all the spark plugs look even. a vacuum leak could give you more R's and a lean running condition too? Stabs in the dark... good hunting
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
Unfortunately...the engine is making an increasing amount of 'racket' coming from the 'camshaft' area, so I'm going to change the oil and see if there's a bunch of glitter in it. On top of that the cooling system may not be able to handle the cubic inches - even at idle speed the temps just steadily creep up albeit slowly, and there's a number of possible reasons why. Either way both issues are at the top of the 'things that suck' column, so yah.
More (or not) to follow...
More (or not) to follow...
Chicken Corners
Red Skull Member
Air in the radiator?
rattle_snake
Fuckwits
Although you have some issues to work out take a look at how far you have come and the battles you won.
We do this for fun right?
The sniper report throttle position and IAB %. Is TP at 0? Does IAB creep up as RPM creeps or go the other way (vac leak)?
I believe you have a fresh motor so it's going to run hot for awhile. 2nd the suggestion to measure cooling system with IR temp gun at the various points.
What is Sniper AFR at idle?
Are you using timing control? if not do you have vac advance distributor? ported or manifold vac? More timing at idle will move heat out of engine and into exhaust.
Another thing that will help parked cooling is to plug off any cavitation paths from hot/outlet of radiator to inlet. gaps in core, belly pan.
Can you pull valve covers easy enough to inspect for loose rocker?
We do this for fun right?
The sniper report throttle position and IAB %. Is TP at 0? Does IAB creep up as RPM creeps or go the other way (vac leak)?
I believe you have a fresh motor so it's going to run hot for awhile. 2nd the suggestion to measure cooling system with IR temp gun at the various points.
What is Sniper AFR at idle?
Are you using timing control? if not do you have vac advance distributor? ported or manifold vac? More timing at idle will move heat out of engine and into exhaust.
Another thing that will help parked cooling is to plug off any cavitation paths from hot/outlet of radiator to inlet. gaps in core, belly pan.
Can you pull valve covers easy enough to inspect for loose rocker?
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
...it's supposed to be fun, and sure there are setbacks...but blown lifters isn't one I expected (don't know that's what's wrong yet but that's what I suspect right now). Took several quarts of the just-drained oil and just-cut-open filter down to my machine shop (very helpful folks), and there are absolutely no signs of an engine trying to eat a cam - no glitter, just the pearly metallic glow of 'freshly broken-in engine oil and break-in lube'. So, while I don't know for certain that the cam isn't damaged I at least know that there is no evidence of it in the oil, so that's good, and is why we suspect a lifter or two or more gave up the ghost after the break-in run (it was no where near this noisy after the 20-min break-in).
My builds always seem to get 'here' - just shy of running well and the time and effort sort of pile up and it starts leaning more in the 'not fun right now' column, but, it is what it is and I'm just trying to remain positive that the end goal will still be worth it.
All good things to review as I'm analyzing the idle and cooling issues. While I haven't had much run time on it yet nor memorized the average numbers, idle speed is set at 650 rpm, TP has been 0, IAC is supposed to be between 2-10%, but after a couple throttle blips the idle settles higher (don't know why), ran the Holley voodoo idle set procedure and it still wants to creep. AFR is ~ 13-14. Timing control is on - Hyperspark dizzy is locked in place and no vac advance - all ECM.
I'm pulling the v-covers tomorrow to check things out.
This'll be more funerer when the engine stops making racket and the temps remain stable, whatever that takes.
My builds always seem to get 'here' - just shy of running well and the time and effort sort of pile up and it starts leaning more in the 'not fun right now' column, but, it is what it is and I'm just trying to remain positive that the end goal will still be worth it.
All good things to review as I'm analyzing the idle and cooling issues. While I haven't had much run time on it yet nor memorized the average numbers, idle speed is set at 650 rpm, TP has been 0, IAC is supposed to be between 2-10%, but after a couple throttle blips the idle settles higher (don't know why), ran the Holley voodoo idle set procedure and it still wants to creep. AFR is ~ 13-14. Timing control is on - Hyperspark dizzy is locked in place and no vac advance - all ECM.
I'm pulling the v-covers tomorrow to check things out.
This'll be more funerer when the engine stops making racket and the temps remain stable, whatever that takes.
Last edited:
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
alright - just got back from the machine shop - one of the lifters had collapsed, possibly others as well but if one's bad then all get replaced, and the quality will likely be a bit higher than whatever brand the old ones are. So, that's good - I'm just so relieved that something was found to be bad, that fits the symptoms, and is a problem I can solve 👍 . Inspected the rockers/pushrods and pics of the cam lobes - all look 'very good'.
Hopefully I'll have the engine back together in a week or so, and it still just might make it to Moab about a month from today.
Hopefully I'll have the engine back together in a week or so, and it still just might make it to Moab about a month from today.
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
after some good conversations with my machine shop and some digging around I got a set of replacement lifters from Top Line (Topline Automotive) on the way. Top line is apparently the only place in the USA making flat-tappet lifters, and the ones from overseas have a pretty bad reputation right now. I spoke with Paul, (800) 441-1400. Total of $205 shipped. Should have the engine running again by the end of next week, and since that part can't go any faster I'll press on with other stuff like the front/rear bumpers and sliders - the fun stuff 
Last edited:
350TacoZilla
Well-known member
Sucks to have a problem but good that you caught it quick and near home not out in BFE.
rattle_snake
Fuckwits
If it helps, my 'completely resealed' drivetrain leaks just about everything. Did coolant pressure test prior to startup. had to reseal timing cover, water pump. Rear main leaks like a mother fucker. drips on exhaust. PS pump was puking fluid due to vibration from poor mounting brackets. Master cylinder was badly leaking brake fluid out of cap, could not fix, replaced with different style. Transfer case leaks from inspection cover. Rear end pinion seal is shot (it is old).
So only trans and front diff were ok. I have solved PS and brake leaks.
Aviation sealer sucks, especially when old.
When you replace lifter make sure you drop a bolt into open intake valve like I did with 5 miles on engine.
So only trans and front diff were ok. I have solved PS and brake leaks.
Aviation sealer sucks, especially when old.
When you replace lifter make sure you drop a bolt into open intake valve like I did with 5 miles on engine.
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
I went to extremely diligent lengths to get everything on my 440 to seal up good, and so far I think I'm ok. The rear main seal leak may only be leaking across the saddle bolts at the oil pan - it is not a big leak - more like a seep. I'll keep an eye on it, but for now I'm just gonna run it. Oh and I'll really try hard to get bolts, dirt or sand in the engine as I'm buttoning it back up
Meanwhile, looks like the trans output shaft seal got overlooked during the rebuild - we were drinkin' - it happens
- it was brittle and came out in pieces. My local O'riellys has a new one in stock along with a new flange gasket - should have it back together tomorrow. Might have it all running by the weekend.
And I started on the slider extensions/running boards - this is the part of builds I really enjoy
Meanwhile, looks like the trans output shaft seal got overlooked during the rebuild - we were drinkin' - it happens
- it was brittle and came out in pieces. My local O'riellys has a new one in stock along with a new flange gasket - should have it back together tomorrow. Might have it all running by the weekend.And I started on the slider extensions/running boards - this is the part of builds I really enjoy
Last edited:
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
cool - Steve at Advance Adapters is sending me a care package, including new o-rings, gaskets, oil, and instructions, and will personally walk me through re-sealing the t-case 👍 . He offered to bring it back to their shop and do it but I offered to do it myself - I'll gain the knowledge of how the thing is put together, and all I have to do is be patient. Meanwhile I can take it apart and get ready...but first I need to make a clean spot on a workbench, which along with being patient are probably the hardest parts of it all 😬😝.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the customer service and support from Advance Adapters is outstanding 👍
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the customer service and support from Advance Adapters is outstanding 👍
Last edited:
montrose818
Banned
so when do i wire you payment and pick this thing up. 
loving it man.
loving it man.
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
...how much you got? Ha! (it would have to be a very large number). But uhh, no - not until I've had a chance to love it or hate it on a trail at least once 
thanks man. I might just have it at our local off road park next weekend 👍
Ha! (it would have to be a very large number). But uhh, no - not until I've had a chance to love it or hate it on a trail at least once thanks man. I might just have it at our local off road park next weekend 👍
Last edited:
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
ok - the engine is all buttoned back up, a new tail housing seal is installed, and the Atlas half way back together and should have it buttoned up tomorrow. After the sealant (Permatex 81182 'Gear Oil') has had at least 24 hrs to dry I'll fill it with fluid, and if it doesn't leak out everywhere I'll toss it back under.
Meanwhile, picked up a way more bigger radiator from Wizard Cooling (2.5x thicker core), got a 6-blade Derale fan, getting new fan clutch to compare to the one in there now, and with that all in hopefully my cooling issue(s) will be cured.
Once the t-case is back in then the driveline and heat shields go back in, and then the radiator and all that go back in, and...then I'll be pretty close to firing it back up, and THEN I'll maybe know if the lifters were bad after all. Just some minor assembly required...
Meanwhile, picked up a way more bigger radiator from Wizard Cooling (2.5x thicker core), got a 6-blade Derale fan, getting new fan clutch to compare to the one in there now, and with that all in hopefully my cooling issue(s) will be cured.
Once the t-case is back in then the driveline and heat shields go back in, and then the radiator and all that go back in, and...then I'll be pretty close to firing it back up, and THEN I'll maybe know if the lifters were bad after all. Just some minor assembly required...
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
two steps forward, one step back. Fired it back up yesterday - it fired right up no problem, and after 20 minutes or so it seems that 'lifters' were indeed the 'noise' issue; it does not seem anywhere near as noisy as before, but it wasn't until the second and for sure third warm-up the last go-round that the noise materialized. We also noticed that the Sniper itself is 'clicky' - makes some distinct light clicky noises, which we attribute to the injectors. I e-mailed Ethan at Holley Tech and yes he confirmed the Snipers make a smooth clicking sound, much like a find running sewing machine, so okay there.
But this second break-in session wasn't without issues, one really - both valve covers were literally dripping oil past the gaskets, and both sides of the block had oil slowly dripping down onto the components below and floor, which was awesome. I didn't want to stop the break-in process so I had to just try to sop it up and continue. It made a nice oily smoky mess...but we got the 20 minutes in.
And for what it's worth, I used Permatex High-Tack Spray-a-Gasket #80064 on the valve cover gaskets this time thinking it'd be just right, but it utterly failed to seal anything. Maybe I just happened to get an old can or a bad batch but all it did was help oil seem past the gasket(s). The first drips I noticed were 'red'...and I'm thinking 'how the hell is trans fluid leaking out of the engine', but then realized it was just the sealant doing everything except 'seal'. Last time I used aviation #3, which worked great but since it's utter failure to seal my NPT fuel fittings I've all but sworn off, so this time I'll use form-a-gasket #2 (80011), which the techs at Permatex say should be perfect, and better than their Super-300.
Cooling. We think it's 'okay'. First off the new fan clutch had the new 6-blade Derale fan sounding like a Freightliner - I had paper towels laying at the ready on a tray a foot in front of the radiator and it immediately sucked them clean up flat against the front of the rad - so that was good 👍 . The fan was kickin' and was apparently clutched in on start-up because about 5 minutes in it maybe got all broke in and 'released' and there was an obvious difference (decrease) in sound, and suction. It only came on once during the rest of the break-in, and when it did kick in there was no denying the sound that comes with it. But by the end of the 20 minutes the temperature only got to about 210-215 on the gauge - still hotter than I was hoping...but we had an IR gun this time, and the thermostat housing was at 220* or so...but the inlet to the radiator...was only at 147*. Pretty big difference, and the radiator outlet was at 91* - lots of cold coolant just waiting to get sucked in. So it was either 1) full of steam or 2) the thermostat is faulty or 3) I left a towel in the system or something...and hot coolant can't get 'out' of the block. And the upper hose was fully pressurized. Also the overflow did not have any 'new' hot coolant in it - just what was in it from before. But I had to know...so I gathered a bunch of towels and put on leather gloves and made sure my protective eyewear was securely in place and just 'cracked' the cap; if it released a bunch of steam/pressure then the system is likely still trying to burp and likely why it isn't staying cool, but if it's full of coolant then something is likely wrong with the thermostat. Cracked the seal and PPPSSHHH!!!!! with a bit of splatter - but not gushing coolant.
Checked it last night after it cooled off and found what I was hoping to find - the upper hose was empty. So this morning I topped it off with more G05 and I'll continue to burp it like I do my 3 month old daughter :) . Still tho, I was pretty happy to see that the engine only got to 215* or so despite the steam pocket - that could have been worse, and I'm hoping I don't have to r-n-r the thermostat.
Pull the valve covers this morning (...again) and should have it all back together today, and tomorrow I'll fire it back up and keep on it. It's getting closer, and...hopefully the engine is indeed not hurt. I'll know more after I get it running again and back into testing...but after all the time blood sweat money and tears and ridiculous wrench time this whole freaking year I don't know if it's going to make Moab next week...and that really f-ing sucks...
But this second break-in session wasn't without issues, one really - both valve covers were literally dripping oil past the gaskets, and both sides of the block had oil slowly dripping down onto the components below and floor, which was awesome. I didn't want to stop the break-in process so I had to just try to sop it up and continue. It made a nice oily smoky mess...but we got the 20 minutes in.
And for what it's worth, I used Permatex High-Tack Spray-a-Gasket #80064 on the valve cover gaskets this time thinking it'd be just right, but it utterly failed to seal anything. Maybe I just happened to get an old can or a bad batch but all it did was help oil seem past the gasket(s). The first drips I noticed were 'red'...and I'm thinking 'how the hell is trans fluid leaking out of the engine', but then realized it was just the sealant doing everything except 'seal'. Last time I used aviation #3, which worked great but since it's utter failure to seal my NPT fuel fittings I've all but sworn off, so this time I'll use form-a-gasket #2 (80011), which the techs at Permatex say should be perfect, and better than their Super-300.
Cooling. We think it's 'okay'. First off the new fan clutch had the new 6-blade Derale fan sounding like a Freightliner - I had paper towels laying at the ready on a tray a foot in front of the radiator and it immediately sucked them clean up flat against the front of the rad - so that was good 👍 . The fan was kickin' and was apparently clutched in on start-up because about 5 minutes in it maybe got all broke in and 'released' and there was an obvious difference (decrease) in sound, and suction. It only came on once during the rest of the break-in, and when it did kick in there was no denying the sound that comes with it. But by the end of the 20 minutes the temperature only got to about 210-215 on the gauge - still hotter than I was hoping...but we had an IR gun this time, and the thermostat housing was at 220* or so...but the inlet to the radiator...was only at 147*. Pretty big difference, and the radiator outlet was at 91* - lots of cold coolant just waiting to get sucked in. So it was either 1) full of steam or 2) the thermostat is faulty or 3) I left a towel in the system or something...and hot coolant can't get 'out' of the block. And the upper hose was fully pressurized. Also the overflow did not have any 'new' hot coolant in it - just what was in it from before. But I had to know...so I gathered a bunch of towels and put on leather gloves and made sure my protective eyewear was securely in place and just 'cracked' the cap; if it released a bunch of steam/pressure then the system is likely still trying to burp and likely why it isn't staying cool, but if it's full of coolant then something is likely wrong with the thermostat. Cracked the seal and PPPSSHHH!!!!! with a bit of splatter - but not gushing coolant.
Checked it last night after it cooled off and found what I was hoping to find - the upper hose was empty. So this morning I topped it off with more G05 and I'll continue to burp it like I do my 3 month old daughter :) . Still tho, I was pretty happy to see that the engine only got to 215* or so despite the steam pocket - that could have been worse, and I'm hoping I don't have to r-n-r the thermostat.
Pull the valve covers this morning (...again) and should have it all back together today, and tomorrow I'll fire it back up and keep on it. It's getting closer, and...hopefully the engine is indeed not hurt. I'll know more after I get it running again and back into testing...but after all the time blood sweat money and tears and ridiculous wrench time this whole freaking year I don't know if it's going to make Moab next week...and that really f-ing sucks...
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
Using plenty of Ultra Copper and following the instructions to the letter, the valve covers back on. Also, to help mitigate any potential 'heat' issues I had my local steel shop blast out a set of 3/8" steel manifold spacers on their waterjet to move the hot manifolds 'away' from things. Also, taking a tip I read from the Mopar RV forums I employed the use of Fel-Pro's 'heat-shield' gaskets on the outside - I used my metal break and folded them just a bit so they wouldn't 'rub' on the v-cover, and using 1/2-inch-longer studs the manifolds are back on too. Have to modify the exhaust a bit to match the new manifold placement, and when that's done everything will have had plenty of time to cure, and I can fire it back up...and see if it all worked...
...I did center the end inner gaskets once I got them snugged up so they weren't 'sagging'...
...I did center the end inner gaskets once I got them snugged up so they weren't 'sagging'...
Mad Max
Imagineer
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 325
- Messages
- 360
ok - just about everything is back together, and in the process I discovered a couple things.
First off, more 440 "RV" tech info. My particular 440 is date coded 1978 and was originally in a 79 Winnebago Motorcoach, and because it was intended for an RV is actually has a few minor but important differences between it and a standard car or truck 440. First, the RV 440s were designated at a 440-3, whereas the car/truck 440s were 440-1. The major differences were mostly related to cooling, meaning two additional cooling ports at the outer edges of the cylinder walls, with (or in my case without) respective matching heads with the additional cooling ports, and, the big distinctive difference, the RV heads had 5/8 spark plugs with a non-crush-washer seal (my heads are the typical 440-1 452s with the normal 13/16 plugs and crush washers, so either my 440 just didn't get 'em...or more likely the owner of the RV had the heads swapped out for non-RV heads - my engine did have Fel-Pro head gaskets on it, which was not original, so a head swap was most likely). Also, the RV 440s also received a specific water pump housing, pn# 3751216, easily distinguished by either the CB on the front inlet or the additional bypass port under the thermostat, which I discovered is kinda important.
RV water pump housing (note the two cast recesses for the thermostat and bypass port) -
Also, I discovered that a "skirted" thermostat must be used in conjunction with the RV water pump housing - at least it does if you want it to be cooled properly. The 440-3 thermostat (I opted for the Milodon 180* unit, #16406) has a lower 'skirt' which when opened blocks off the bypass port in the water pump housing, but without which (with a typical thermostat from the parts stores) will not block the bypass port, which will not send the majority of the coolant to the radiator - it will just continually 'bypass' both within the block/heads (the intent being to warm up the engine rapidly) and some will go through the radiator, but not all, which I believe is why my 440 wasn't cooling well (it was cooling so-so, but not great) - and yep I had a standard 440-1 thermostat in there. Pics of the skirted thermostat are below -
To recap, here is my RV water pump housing -
But wait - there's more. All of the upper thermostat housings I've found have a recess in them too, which according to the books is to center the thermostat in the 440-1 non-RV applications. The strange part is my 440-3 water pump housing also has a recess for...I think...the thermostat. Now, because the thermostat lower skirt is supposed to extend down into the lower recess and block the bypass coolant flow I chose to presume the thermostat is supposed to be placed in the pump housing itself, and not in the upper thermostat housing. Should the thermostat go in the upper housing? - don't know, but if it did then there would be the chance of it not aligning with the lower recess, so I went with the lower/below-the-gasket placement. Then, UltraGrey RTV, gasket, more RTV, and upper "thermostat" housing went on, bolted to 18 lb/ft. I'm pretty sure my thermostat housing is not for an RV application and is simply for all the 440-1 applications. I have not yet found a genuine 440-3 thermostat housing, but if I did I'd wager there is no recess in it for the thermostat.
But still, my thermostat housing had that recess in it...or at least it used to ;) . To try to get maximum clamping and sealing potential from it I went ahead and had a local welding shop fill in the recess, and I machined it flat - actually I machined it to perfectly match the pump housing with just the slightest detectable amount of center 'rise' to get that much more clamping on the gasket. So, just posting my process and pics for it all... :)
Upper thermostat housing 'filled in' -
...machined flat -
I got the Milodon thermostat, skirted/RV design (silver), compared to the less reputable Mr. Gasket version -
and Permatex 27036 ultragrey to seal it all up -
Now I only recently became aware of all this 440-3 "RV" info and I'm really glad I did. But while I was getting smart on the RV info I was in the meantime trying to find a better way to seal a big block thermostat housing. I was trying to find a way to use a more modern thermostat with the rubber seal around the outer edge, one which would not require using a gasket at all - just bolt the top housing down and 'done'. I did find a thermostat which I think would have worked great...at least for those with a non-RV water pump housing, NAPA pn# 375-180, which I think is from a 2nd Gen Cummins -
If I'm not mistaken, that thermostat (180* in this case) would simply sit on top of the standard water pump housing, and it would be capped off with the thermostat housing of your choice with the recess in it, and...I think...you'd never need a gasket. Anyone want to test my theory? :)
But, I have a RV pump housing, so, naturally, I can't use it :( - noooo I have to use the RV stuff....unless I swap in a non-RV housing...which I wasn't ready to do. Nope I'm gonna do the RV thermostat thing first and see how awesome my cooling system now will be. It's all back together and I'll be pouring in coolant tomorrow morning.
Interesting stuff I continue to learn in this Hot Rod life of mine. And, with all of this extra work done, I'm now inclined to think that...if I had originally assembled the system with the correct skirted thermostat the stock radiator may just have cooled my 440 just fine. If that were the case, then I am now inclined to think that with the correct 'stat in there now plus the Wizard radiator and max-duty fan and clutch...well I may just have inadvertently achieved a max-overkill cooling system for the truck which...I'm hoping...may just keep my 440 at 180* all day long...which is what I was hoping for to begin with 👍 . Time will soon tell...
First off, more 440 "RV" tech info. My particular 440 is date coded 1978 and was originally in a 79 Winnebago Motorcoach, and because it was intended for an RV is actually has a few minor but important differences between it and a standard car or truck 440. First, the RV 440s were designated at a 440-3, whereas the car/truck 440s were 440-1. The major differences were mostly related to cooling, meaning two additional cooling ports at the outer edges of the cylinder walls, with (or in my case without) respective matching heads with the additional cooling ports, and, the big distinctive difference, the RV heads had 5/8 spark plugs with a non-crush-washer seal (my heads are the typical 440-1 452s with the normal 13/16 plugs and crush washers, so either my 440 just didn't get 'em...or more likely the owner of the RV had the heads swapped out for non-RV heads - my engine did have Fel-Pro head gaskets on it, which was not original, so a head swap was most likely). Also, the RV 440s also received a specific water pump housing, pn# 3751216, easily distinguished by either the CB on the front inlet or the additional bypass port under the thermostat, which I discovered is kinda important.
RV water pump housing (note the two cast recesses for the thermostat and bypass port) -
Also, I discovered that a "skirted" thermostat must be used in conjunction with the RV water pump housing - at least it does if you want it to be cooled properly. The 440-3 thermostat (I opted for the Milodon 180* unit, #16406) has a lower 'skirt' which when opened blocks off the bypass port in the water pump housing, but without which (with a typical thermostat from the parts stores) will not block the bypass port, which will not send the majority of the coolant to the radiator - it will just continually 'bypass' both within the block/heads (the intent being to warm up the engine rapidly) and some will go through the radiator, but not all, which I believe is why my 440 wasn't cooling well (it was cooling so-so, but not great) - and yep I had a standard 440-1 thermostat in there. Pics of the skirted thermostat are below -
To recap, here is my RV water pump housing -
But wait - there's more. All of the upper thermostat housings I've found have a recess in them too, which according to the books is to center the thermostat in the 440-1 non-RV applications. The strange part is my 440-3 water pump housing also has a recess for...I think...the thermostat. Now, because the thermostat lower skirt is supposed to extend down into the lower recess and block the bypass coolant flow I chose to presume the thermostat is supposed to be placed in the pump housing itself, and not in the upper thermostat housing. Should the thermostat go in the upper housing? - don't know, but if it did then there would be the chance of it not aligning with the lower recess, so I went with the lower/below-the-gasket placement. Then, UltraGrey RTV, gasket, more RTV, and upper "thermostat" housing went on, bolted to 18 lb/ft. I'm pretty sure my thermostat housing is not for an RV application and is simply for all the 440-1 applications. I have not yet found a genuine 440-3 thermostat housing, but if I did I'd wager there is no recess in it for the thermostat.
But still, my thermostat housing had that recess in it...or at least it used to ;) . To try to get maximum clamping and sealing potential from it I went ahead and had a local welding shop fill in the recess, and I machined it flat - actually I machined it to perfectly match the pump housing with just the slightest detectable amount of center 'rise' to get that much more clamping on the gasket. So, just posting my process and pics for it all... :)
Upper thermostat housing 'filled in' -
...machined flat -
I got the Milodon thermostat, skirted/RV design (silver), compared to the less reputable Mr. Gasket version -
and Permatex 27036 ultragrey to seal it all up -
Now I only recently became aware of all this 440-3 "RV" info and I'm really glad I did. But while I was getting smart on the RV info I was in the meantime trying to find a better way to seal a big block thermostat housing. I was trying to find a way to use a more modern thermostat with the rubber seal around the outer edge, one which would not require using a gasket at all - just bolt the top housing down and 'done'. I did find a thermostat which I think would have worked great...at least for those with a non-RV water pump housing, NAPA pn# 375-180, which I think is from a 2nd Gen Cummins -
If I'm not mistaken, that thermostat (180* in this case) would simply sit on top of the standard water pump housing, and it would be capped off with the thermostat housing of your choice with the recess in it, and...I think...you'd never need a gasket. Anyone want to test my theory? :)
But, I have a RV pump housing, so, naturally, I can't use it :( - noooo I have to use the RV stuff....unless I swap in a non-RV housing...which I wasn't ready to do. Nope I'm gonna do the RV thermostat thing first and see how awesome my cooling system now will be. It's all back together and I'll be pouring in coolant tomorrow morning.
Interesting stuff I continue to learn in this Hot Rod life of mine. And, with all of this extra work done, I'm now inclined to think that...if I had originally assembled the system with the correct skirted thermostat the stock radiator may just have cooled my 440 just fine. If that were the case, then I am now inclined to think that with the correct 'stat in there now plus the Wizard radiator and max-duty fan and clutch...well I may just have inadvertently achieved a max-overkill cooling system for the truck which...I'm hoping...may just keep my 440 at 180* all day long...which is what I was hoping for to begin with 👍 . Time will soon tell...
Last edited:
rattle_snake
Fuckwits
The joys of hot rodding, yes. The path doesn't always align with time or money correctly, but you got there. Hope it works out, good luck.
Winchested
IH Scout SSII
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 2128
- Messages
- 1,410
I run the Milodon 180 in my IH 345. They are expensive but the only company making a proper Robertshaw style thermo stat which blocks the bypass. Same one for BB mopar. Works great.