Tuning EFI

[JR4X]

But as mentioned, all EFI timing sets are and always were straight up.

Well now I feel silly. I have wrongly thought this whole time that everything from 72 up had the retarded cam timing.

So… what mods make these smog ridden engines make good tow pigs? I like the low rpm engine. It actually pulls pretty good, they just accelerate slow. I have everything to ZF 5 swap it but not going to do that till the E40D takes a shit.

I don’t want it to have peak power above 5000 rpm, I don’t want to need it to turn 4000 rpm. Anything I can can do to achieve what I want?

 

[Ummduh]

Well now I feel silly. I have wrongly thought this whole time that everything from 72 up had the retarded cam timing.

So… what mods make these smog ridden engines make good tow pigs? I like the low rpm engine. It actually pulls pretty good, they just accelerate slow. I have everything to ZF 5 swap it but not going to do that till the E40D takes a shit.

I don’t want it to have peak power above 5000 rpm, I don’t want to need it to turn 4000 rpm. Anything I can can do to achieve what I want?

Man I can't really tell you. My plan is to go scorched earth style, I'm going 521". I ha e 250k on mine and it won't pull my 5th wheel down the highway at 65... It's actually more than enough in town but the second I get on the highway it's just disappointing.

Head over to 460ford.com. There's a couple guys on there that know all the tricks.

 

[reptillikus]

So here's what i did with mine, which started as an '88 motor.

+.030 on the bore, and .-.010 on the deck height. 'stock' heads, but i have bigger valves (2.09 int, 1.76 exh), which are slightly bigger than what comes in the F4 heads. Your E7 heads are pretty small. Flat top pistons, because the 88-93 piston doesnt come to deck height. This combo got me to 9:1.
I used that cam i linked yesterday (link). BBK twin 61mm throttle body. Cut the horns out of the air dam, and ive got big headers & a 3" pipe.
The 460s already run on the lean side from the factory, so while you could turn up the fuel pressure and probably be fine, i opted instead for 36# injectors and that PimpX.
The graph i got from the builder says 400hp @ ~4700rpm, and 500ft/lb at ~3800rpm. I am running 94 octane from Sunoco, since its just a mile or two down the road. Obviously i have only just begun working on the tune, but its considerably snappier than it was before.

 

[mjlogan88]

How are you guys doing with the tuning? Get some decent logs yet?

 

[Ummduh]

No, sorry. I think I have mine set up to log all the time, so I probably just need to hook up the laptop and pull them off.

I want to make a couple changes to the afr table and check those logs though. It's been 0-ish the last few days and the truck doesn't start well at those those temps right now so I haven't played with it.

 

[reptillikus]

Yes, very cold outside here too.

I have decent AFRs cruising now. My idle is high so I need to adjust my TB, and then recalibrate my TPS. I want to calibrate the IAC too. After that I'm going to get another good log and start digging into the VE table. Haven't messed with it since Wednesday because it's been single digits and my hand doesn't work so good when it's that cold.

 

[Ummduh]

For reference, this is the as-shipped (mostly, I changed the idle area a bit and rescaled since I'll never see 300 kPa and 6k+ rpm) Stinger table.

edit: just noticed the multiple 150kPa rungs. This is probably from me resetting my operating maximums out of the absurd to more realistic and the program just dumping everything that was beyond my new max settings.

 

[Ummduh]

I rebinned to what makes the most sense to me.

 

[mjlogan88]

Looks ok to me, quie similar to mine for the most part. I’m far from an expert though and would love for someone more experienced to come in here and tell us we’re doing it wrong

Here’s my table. Granted it is for a 2500lb car with a boosted 2.5L 4cyl and a stick shift. Only major difference is I was building a lean cruise section for economy on the highway. Taking a look at it again I am kind of giving it a wall of fuel at 3k/75kpa but my theory is give it fuel to save it as the boost comes in

VE table isn’t tuned above 160kpa/6500rpm as I’m not pushing that much boost yet or rpm yet. It could always use more work but it is very civil to drive as is

 

[Ummduh]

(edit.. link doesn't work. fuckin apple.)


So here are 3 logs.. Well, one log, 2 crops.

WOT_revlimiter is.. well the first WOT and I ran into the revlimiter on my 2-3 shift.
WOT_2 is after adjusting my shift point.
predon2 is the full log, at about 500 seconds long.

I rebinned the tables and did NOT run auto tune at all. Whatever is in here is what I got the first few times I ran it. I did richen up the table a bit. I did NOT make any changes to the VE table after changing the AFR table.

 

[Ummduh]

datalogs - Google Drive

drive.google.com

This should work this time.

 

[Ummduh]

datalogs - Google Drive

drive.google.com

This should work this time.

I did some looking, I wanted to see what my rev limiter looked like... I don't think it's in this log, but at one point I hit 48xx rpm. I don't think these stock efi 460's like that very much! Oops! There's a pretty fine balancing act between shift points, shift times, and rev limiters. Predictive shfting wasn't enabled initially, so I turned it on and it seemed to have helped a lot.

 

[mjlogan88]

Checked out your logs a bit. Again a disclaimer: I am not an expert at all! Maybe 6 months ahead of you.

It looks like you are running EGO correction, however the settings seem to be very watered down or only enabled at certain times. Nothing wrong with that, just trying to get on the same page. Usually when I look through logs I cruise through it looking for points of interest and compare actual AFR to target AFR.

You could use a bit more in your VE table in situations like this. Changing the AFR table will not actually give it more fuel (unless you have EGO correction on), you gotta do it in the VE. On average it looks like you are about a half point off your target AFR on a hard pull. Also, what is going on here with this lean spike? Looks like a shift (mine look way different being a manual trans). Is there something that is cutting fuel during a shift that I'm not seeing?

It looks like you could afford to play with your AE a little to help with the lean conditions on tip in. You can see where the cursor is you just got done whacking it and the AFR is 1.6 points lean. Its not awful, and is kind of inevitable- it can't read your mind. Mine has it too but sometimes you can tweak it and it feels way better seat of the pants. If you've tuned carbs before this is just like adding more accel pump shot or increasing squirter size. Also in this screen shot, another one of those lean spikes on shift.

Noticed this too. What the heck is going on with your timing right here? It looks like you are in decel fuel cut (where the cursor is), but then coming out of it and your timing starts bouncing around.

Honestly in general it doesnt look to bad. When I started mine was a huge mess trying to build my tables from scratch. Hope all that rambling helps

 

[Ummduh]

This is WOT2.

So if I'm looking at this right, and I'm probably not, in graph 3. At the marker, I'm showing commanded of 13.0 AFR, actual of 14.6, error being 1.6.

So I'd want to go to my 95kPa cell in the 2100RPM range and take some VE away from it to fatten it up right there. right?

 

[Ummduh]

Checked out your logs a bit. Again a disclaimer: I am not an expert at all! Maybe 6 months ahead of you.

It looks like you are running EGO correction, however the settings seem to be very watered down or only enabled at certain times. Nothing wrong with that, just trying to get on the same page. Usually when I look through logs I cruise through it looking for points of interest and compare actual AFR to target AFR.

You could use a bit more in your VE table in situations like this. Changing the AFR table will not actually give it more fuel (unless you have EGO correction on), you gotta do it in the VE. On average it looks like you are about a half point off your target AFR on a hard pull. Also, what is going on here with this lean spike? Looks like a shift (mine look way different being a manual trans). Is there something that is cutting fuel during a shift that I'm not seeing?

It looks like you could afford to play with your AE a little to help with the lean conditions on tip in. You can see where the cursor is you just got done whacking it and the AFR is 1.6 points lean. If you've tuned carbs before this is just like adding more accel pump shot or increasing squirter size. Also in this screen shot, another one of those lean spikes on shift.

Noticed this too. What the heck is going on with your timing right here? It looks like you are in decel fuel cut (where the cursor is), but then coming out of it and your timing starts bouncing around.

Honestly in general it doesnt look to bad. When I started mine was a huge mess trying to build my tables from scratch. Hope all that rambling helps

I definitely have some lean tip-in. I'm not sure how to fix that yet.

I didn't know you could open up your tables like that. Holy nice. How'd you do that? I'll figure it out lol.

On these runs I specifically changed the AFR table without changing anything in the VE table so I could see some differences. I do have the "Incorporate AFR target" enabled as it was from Stinger. Where else can I find EGO correction? I seem to remember it somewhere else too now I can't find it, if it was even there to begin with.

Edit: I have spark retard at shift enabled. Not sure if thats what you're seeing, I'll try to find it.


over-run fuel cut is also enabled.

It'd be nice to just post the tune but being it's really Stinger's tune I don't really want to post it publicly.

 

[mjlogan88]

EGO control is under "fuel settings" in TS. I wont advise you to enable it when you are still getting your VE sorted out, the real tuners tell you not to. But daily driving this thing you bet your ass it turned it on, I'm not on the rollers and i gotta get to work.

You need to INCREASE your VE to fatten it up. Don't just do that one cell, kinda blend it a little with the cells around it. Drag grab a few cells in the problem area and * increase by percentage (1.1) or something like that. At least thats how i do it. Injector PW is a function of your VE value.

You fix the lean tip in as much as you can with the VE table, then back it up with some AE (acceleration enrichment dropdown). Watch the cursor in the table as it goes through cells when you are looking through the logs. You might try to "lead in" a little with some fuel, but really thats what the AE feature is for

 

[Ummduh]

OK, I have no idea how to get the VE table to show up with the log like you have.

 

[Ummduh]

Fuel settings > AFR/EGO Control > Controller Authority?

If so, it was at 1%. I put it to 0. I thought Stinger said it was disabled in their base tunes and they also recommend having it off initially.

 

[Ummduh]

On the timing issue.. I'm seeing "Status 6" say 32 while the timing is gone, and my "Engine state - Idle" goes to 1, which would be saying it thinks it's idling..... at 1700rpm?

 

[mjlogan88]

Oh yeah 1% authority isn't going to let it do hardly anything. I run mine at 15-20%. Yes you should have it off initially when you are still dialing your VE in.

Try playing with these arrows, i think the tables are just hidden in your MLV

Try and just focus on your VE table for now. It is super overwhelming at first especially with me throwing all the AE and EGO stuff at you.

For weeks, maybe months I would drive, review the log, then run VE analyze and really try to get a feel for what it was wanting to do vs what my logs told me. Then make a change to the VE based on what it was telling me and my intuition. Eventually you’ll get to the point where VE analyze isn’t trying to change much. That’s when you bring in the add-ons like AE and whatnot

 

[[486]]

VE table looks a little suspect on the left side, there's some waviness in there that might be compensating for shitty accel enrichment tuning

ETA: just looked at your other stuff, and the lean hole is just somewhere that you almost never seem to use
I'd fatten it up to match the rest, but I fuck around with shit that doesn't need fucking around with and it bites me in the ass

 

[[486]]

Try and just focus on your VE table for now. It is super overwhelming at first especially with me throwing all the AE and EGO stuff at you.

For weeks, maybe months I would drive, review the log, then run VE analyze and really try to get a feel for what it was wanting to do vs what my logs told me. Then make a change to the VE based on what it was telling me and my intuition. Eventually you’ll get to the point where VE analyze isn’t trying to change much. That’s when you bring in the add-ons like AE and whatnot

basically this
I'd datalog every trip, then fuck around a little tiny bit. Eventually it gets to where it's happy.

You're still running a stock TFI distributor on this, right? The lean spike on the shift might be the rev limiter. I ran EDIS on my junk so I couldn't do spark cut limiting. Puts aluminum on your spark plugs and destroys your wideband real fast. I kinda gave up on my tuning adventures after killing a couple sensors at a hundred bucks a pop. Figured it was good enough for the $125 engine I had in there and let'er eat.

Spark cut technically should show as "lean" on the wideband and everything as combustion still isn't happening, I have no experience with it so I can't really speak on it.

You say it is a box that plugs in in place of the eec-4 box, obviously it's gotta have a separate wideband or it wouldn't have data in the logs... Was gonna ask if it was just using the stock narrow band but kinda answered my own question there

 

[Ummduh]

basically this
I'd datalog every trip, then fuck around a little tiny bit. Eventually it gets to where it's happy.

You're still running a stock TFI distributor on this, right? The lean spike on the shift might be the rev limiter. I ran EDIS on my junk so I couldn't do spark cut limiting. Puts aluminum on your spark plugs and destroys your wideband real fast. I kinda gave up on my tuning adventures after killing a couple sensors at a hundred bucks a pop. Figured it was good enough for the $125 engine I had in there and let'er eat.

Spark cut technically should show as "lean" on the wideband and everything as combustion still isn't happening, I have no experience with it so I can't really speak on it.

You say it is a box that plugs in in place of the eec-4 box, obviously it's gotta have a separate wideband or it wouldn't have data in the logs... Was gonna ask if it was just using the stock narrow band but kinda answered my own question there

If talking to me.. Yes, stock tfi. Spartan2 wideband.

Rev limiter is fuel cut, tfi can't cut spark.

 

[[486]]

Biggest issue is no knock sensors. I am considering making some det cans cuz otherwise I can't hear anything over the exhaust.

knock sensors... are kinda shit
if you're running enough of a turbo, you'll crack pistons long before the knock sensor will do much of anything
and if you aren't, well, you really should be setting the timing by feel rather than ear, if it's spark knock you've gotta pull a shitton of timing in that range, as peak power is well before the bad noises

 

[[486]]

If talking to me.. Yes, stock tfi. Spartan2 wideband.

Rev limiter is fuel cut, tfi can't cut spark.

Didn't know for sure if TFI was different, guess it is the same inputs with the pip and spout wires as the later EDIS boxes, so of course no spark cut limiting
Avoid the rev limiter, your wideband will last a lot longer. Also, don't run it without the wideband being powered, that kills them too.

I sorta poked around in the thread, the earlier @ didn't work, my username fucks that feature up

 

[mjlogan88]

VE table looks a little suspect on the left side, there's some waviness in there that might be compensating for shitty accel enrichment tuning

ETA: just looked at your other stuff, and the lean hole is just somewhere that you almost never seem to use
I'd fatten it up to match the rest, but I fuck around with shit that doesn't need fucking around with and it bites me in the ass

I screwed around a lot trying to make my VE mimic accel enrichment before I discovered it. I really should go back and smooth it out. Thanks for looking at it

 

[Ummduh]

My AE settings. TPSdot is basically how fast your TPS changes state, correct? Is that logged somewhere, or how do I determine that?

just looking and reading the notes on this, I'm thinking I need to lower the Accel TPSdot threshold a bit. Without verifing in a log I was seeing lean tip-in quite often. Obviously I'll have to confirm that.

Or...? should I wait until the VE map is more accurate?

edit: duh, the TPSdot is displayed in that damn window. So it must be logged as well.

 

[[486]]

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My AE settings. TPSdot is basically how fast your TPS changes state, correct? Is that logged somewhere, or how do I determine that?

just looking and reading the notes on this, I'm thinking I need to lower the Accel TPSdot threshold a bit. Without verifing in a log I was seeing lean tip-in quite often. Obviously I'll have to confirm that.

Or...? should I wait until the VE map is more accurate?

edit: duh, the TPSdot is displayed in that damn window. So it must be logged as well.

wait until you've got the VE tables dialed in real well
you'll need to estimate on the tip-in portions since the o2 sensor numbers are delayed a little bit from the distance down the exhaust and you're almost never in the leftmost boxes
the upper left is mostly while cranking, the middle left is tip-in and the lower left is idle and lugging the engine down below idle

you fuck with the AE in real-time, not with the logs
it is purely a "by feel" sorta deal, you just go out in a parking lot and fuck with it until you can chirp the tires by just stabbing the throttle
there's a dot that moves around on the little tpsdot AE graph while you're driving

don't raise the lower threshold, you want it to come in most all the time you move the throttle (think of it like the accelerator pump on a carb), but yours does look to be pretty steep with the added fuel

 

[mjlogan88]

I would try turning AE off completely for a tuning session or two to give you a feel for how much it is doing. It might also help you work on you VE tables a bit. I was told to leave AE disabled until your VE was dialed.

Also before you get in the weeds too far, is your injector data and “required fuel” set up correctly?

 

[Ummduh]

Also before you get in the weeds too far, is your injector data and “required fuel” set up correctly?

It's setup per singer's directions. I don't understand why they do what they do, but that's what I did.

I'm batch fire, they had me enter 4 Injectors and double their rating. So I have 8 24's, they have you enter 4 48's. I don't get it but it is what they tell you to do. Considering the VE table seems to be pretty reasonable so far I'd guess it's not too far off. And the injector slope delay is .9 per their directions as well.


Edit: stinger's tune is based on a stock 351w lightning.