Tow rig build bench racing.

[YotaAtieToo]

Don't over complicate things

Sure, 2lo or 4lo for backing up trailers and moving stuff around yards, but a cummins with a 6 speed will get things moving fine in 1st gear on the street, no need to build a special transfer case... and go 271, it's a burly case and proven

Like I said, bench racing.

Although I'm not sure I agree. I've only driven mine 3 times since the swap, but it will easily stall trying to back up my driveway with no throttle. (3.54s/ZF5/33s) I can't imagine trying to get a good load moving with even taller gears. Although I do get the 6 speed is lower 1st.

Not sure how many mountains you have near you, but towing heavy in the mountains, lower gearing would be way nicer. Last time I pulled a big skid steer with the 7.3, I smoked the clutch trying to start on a hill. Had to put it in low range, then pull over and go back to hi.

Realistically, I'll probably just go back to 4.10s and deal with higher rpm on the highway. Although I am tempted to find one of the small 3 speed brownie boxes to stick in. God knows I have the WB for it

 

[TrailTamer]

I still stand by my point of an atlas being almost useless in a tow rig, unless just wanting something brand new?

I have a hard time seeing a stock 205 being as strong as a full race atlas? Or maybe roughly equal? I mean lots of U4 and bouncer guys still run atlas. Think a 271 would hold up to the same abuse?



Side note. Since this is a bench racing thread.

Say you run something like a Cummins/6speed manual 3.31 super duty axles and 35s (I think Projectjunkie has mentioned this combo before)

So now you have a highway cruiser, then you hit the mountains, or have to pull some wieght around town. What about a 1.5:1 atlas?

Nv5600/3.31s 35s 1:1 left 1.5:1 right (3.31x1.5=4.97s Fwiw)

I’d prefer the one on left, no 1.5:1 contraption.

In my research on ‘how’ to make 5 or 6 speed truck manual trans to hold up.. there are hardly anything you can do… other than to gear axles deep and small tires like what you see in F450/F550, 4500/5500 trucks to greatly reduce the stress on overdrive gears… or tall axle ratios to tow in direct like 3.55, 3.31, and/or taller tires. Gotta choose which penalty you want, lack of deep first gear or always get winded out on highway towing or not.

In perfect world it’ll be a trans with a super granny low first gear and double over drive. I suppose that’s in a 13 speed road ranger trans? lol

it will easily stall trying to back up my driveway with no throttle. (3.54s/ZF5/33s)

Turn in your afc smoke screw. I felt stupid after driving my truck like that way for several years of requiring some pedal to start and stalling if I didn’t give it any throttle when letting clutch out.

 

[Sean]

I still stand by my point of an atlas being almost useless in a tow rig, unless just wanting something brand new?

I have a hard time seeing a stock 205 being as strong as a full race atlas? Or maybe roughly equal? I mean lots of U4 and bouncer guys still run atlas. Think a 271 would hold up to the same abuse?



Side note. Since this is a bench racing thread.

Say you run something like a Cummins/6speed manual 3.31 super duty axles and 35s (I think Projectjunkie has mentioned this combo before)

So now you have a highway cruiser, then you hit the mountains, or have to pull some wieght around town. What about a 1.5:1 atlas?

Nv5600/3.31s 35s 1:1 left 1.5:1 right (3.31x1.5=4.97s Fwiw)

Depends on what all you do with your tow rig. I don't do it often, but I do occasionally wheel mine and would likely do it more were it more set up.

To me, this is just a fun project...a diversion that's gotten way out of the original scope. I like customized vehicles. Sue me. That said, if AA says the Atlas isn't up to the task behind a diesel, I'm not sure I'd question it...they are the manufacturer and don't want their cases getting a bad wrap. Could it be just fine with someone who's a judicious driver....I'm betting the answer is yes, but when you're talking spending about $4K for a race case vs. considerably less if you do a bone yard 205 and underdrive or get fancy and spend $1K more than the Atlas doing a Magnitude case/Magnum underdrive...still makes sense to skip the Atlas since strength isn't even a question at that point.

I do think a 271 or even a 241HD is up to the task...though I question a 241HD (what comes in the truck stock) being stronger than a race case Atlas. But frankly, I've never been a 241 fan. Mainly, I want clockability and twin stick....and lots of gearing options.

 

[Projectjunkie]

Zf5 ratios

Diesel: 4.14/2.37/1.42/1.00/0.77/R3.79
Gas: 5.72/2.94/1.61/1.00/0.76/R5.24

Zf6

And nv4500 has a 5.61 1st

It looks like the diesel zf5 doesn't have much of a granny

I'd try real hard to spec the right tranny tcase and diffs to give you the spread of getting it rolling, and keeping your cruise rpm down

 

[KB6Chris]

The 241HD and up tcases are stupid strong. Every summer I watch 800+hp diesels loaded down with weights drag sleds up and down dirt tracks. Most still running their factory tcases with 200,000+ miles on them.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I’d prefer the one on left, no 1.5:1 contraption.

Well ya, but if you could flick a lever and have the ratios on the right for certain situations it would be pretty awesome no?

Like I said, this is bench racing, not what's practical or realistic cost wise.

In my research on ‘how’ to make 5 or 6 speed truck manual trans to hold up.. there are hardly anything you can do… other than to gear axles deep and small tires like what you see in F450/F550, 4500/5500 trucks to greatly reduce the stress on overdrive gears… or tall axle ratios to tow in direct like 3.55, 3.31, and/or taller tires. Gotta choose which penalty you want, lack of deep first gear or always get winded out on highway towing or not.

I'm not worried about it holding up, I don't want a ton of power or anything. But getting a load going with 33-35s and 3.54s sucks no matter what. But so does 4.10+ on the highway.

Eating cake and all, but like I said bench racing.

In perfect world it’ll be a trans with a super granny low first gear and double over drive. I suppose that’s in a 13 speed road ranger trans? lol

There was a guy years ago who used an sae cummins bell adapter and shoved a 13 spd in his 2nd gen dodge. It was ridiculous and awesome at the same time. So much floor cutting

Once you drive an 18 or 13, you'll really want one though.

Turn in your afc smoke screw. I felt stupid after driving my truck like that way for several years of requiring some pedal to start and stalling if I didn’t give it any throttle when letting clutch out.

Turns in as in less fuel or more? I have about 7 miles on it, so I haven't touched anything power wise. It does smoke more than I'd like, so hopefully you mean less fuel.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Zf5 ratios

Diesel: 4.14/2.37/1.42/1.00/0.77/R3.79
Gas: 5.72/2.94/1.61/1.00/0.76/R5.24

Zf6


And nv4500 has a 5.61 1st

It looks like the diesel zf5 doesn't have much of a granny

I'd try real hard to spec the right tranny tcase and diffs to give you the spread of getting it rolling, and keeping your cruise rpm down

Mine is an s47 so 5.06 1st and 4.66 rev (why they went taller on reverse ) but ya, I realize it's not as granny as other manuals.

But getting a super low granny without a lower 2nd isn't gaining a whole lot either. So really the zf5 has better ratios as long as you can get moving.



Again, I'm not saying I'm going to drop $4k on a 1.5:1 race case, but I still think it would be sweet. Even better would be the 1.4/3.0 hero.

But if we're really bench racing, just go 18rro

 

[06h3]

Bench racing. I love bench racing. What we need is a fucking gear vendors that isn’t a POS. US gear had their dual range overdrive unit that was designed for towing and heavy loads. It’s basically a gear vendors that didn’t break. GCWR was up to 35,000 lbs. towing in double overdrive or whatever the hell you wanna do. That was the answer until they got bought out and they discontinued it.

I have gotten so much conflicting info on the gear vendors unit. It could solve so many of my problems. 1/3 of the internet says it works just fine with heavy loads, 1/3 of the internet says its works if you don’t split gears while towing 1/3 of the internet says it won’t hold up and they broke their GV 2 times before pulling it out.

I called GV and said I have an F550 7.3 I will stay under the 26k they rate it at (I wouldn’t but said it for argument sake) and they said we will not sell it to you unless you acknowledge it will break. I said how about 20k lbs gross? 6k under your rating….same answer. Something lets the GV live behind 2000+ hp but not under torque and heavy loads. The US gear setup was the answer.

https://www.dieselwarden.net/temp/usgear/US%20Gears%20overdrive%20manual.pdf

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Bench racing. I love bench racing. What we need is a fucking gear vendors that isn’t a POS. US gear had their dual range overdrive unit that was designed for towing and heavy loads. It’s basically a gear vendors that didn’t break. GCWR was up to 35,000 lbs. towing in double overdrive or whatever the hell you wanna do. That was the answer until they got bought out and they discontinued it.

I have gotten so much conflicting info on the gear vendors unit. It could solve so many of my problems. 1/3 of the internet says it works just fine with heavy loads, 1/3 of the internet says its works if you don’t split gears while towing 1/3 of the internet says it won’t hold up and they broke their GV 2 times before pulling it out.

I called GV and said I have an F550 7.3 I will stay under the 26k they rate it at (I wouldn’t but said it for argument sake) and they said we will not sell it to you unless you acknowledge it will break. I said how about 20k lbs gross? 6k under your rating….same answer. Something lets the GV live behind 2000+ hp but not under torque and heavy loads. The US gear setup was the answer.

https://www.dieselwarden.net/temp/usgear/US%20Gears%20overdrive%20manual.pdf

I still like your brownie box.

1.2/1/0.80? Iirc

 

[tac1]

Bench racing. I love bench racing. What we need is a fucking gear vendors that isn’t a POS. US gear had their dual range overdrive unit that was designed for towing and heavy loads. It’s basically a gear vendors that didn’t break. GCWR was up to 35,000 lbs. towing in double overdrive or whatever the hell you wanna do. That was the answer until they got bought out and they discontinued it.

I have gotten so much conflicting info on the gear vendors unit. It could solve so many of my problems. 1/3 of the internet says it works just fine with heavy loads, 1/3 of the internet says its works if you don’t split gears while towing 1/3 of the internet says it won’t hold up and they broke their GV 2 times before pulling it out.

I called GV and said I have an F550 7.3 I will stay under the 26k they rate it at (I wouldn’t but said it for argument sake) and they said we will not sell it to you unless you acknowledge it will break. I said how about 20k lbs gross? 6k under your rating….same answer. Something lets the GV live behind 2000+ hp but not under torque and heavy loads. The US gear setup was the answer.

https://www.dieselwarden.net/temp/usgear/US%20Gears%20overdrive%20manual.pdf

Have you tried contacting scs, they have some cool looking compact aux boxes, but I don't think on-highway towing trucks are really their market.

2 Speed Aux - SCS Gearbox Inc

When you want the best performance out of your car, truck, boat or tractor, you need to make sure you have a gearbox that gets the job done. SCS Gearbox has exactly what you need with this 2-speed aux gearbox, designed to give you less operating noise, improved fuel efficiency and less engine...

www.scsgearbox.com

2 Speed Reduction Box - SCS Gearbox Inc

Getting the best gears for your car, truck, tractor or boat is simple when you shop for everything you need at SCS Gearbox. This 2-speed reduction gearbox is designed to give you a performance increase at a reasonable price, plus it’s made for easy installation. A 1 3/4-27 spline input and...

www.scsgearbox.com

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Have you tried contacting scs, they have some cool looking compact aux boxes, but I don't think on-highway towing trucks are really their market.

2 Speed Aux - SCS Gearbox Inc

When you want the best performance out of your car, truck, boat or tractor, you need to make sure you have a gearbox that gets the job done. SCS Gearbox has exactly what you need with this 2-speed aux gearbox, designed to give you less operating noise, improved fuel efficiency and less engine...

www.scsgearbox.com

2 Speed Reduction Box - SCS Gearbox Inc

Getting the best gears for your car, truck, tractor or boat is simple when you shop for everything you need at SCS Gearbox. This 2-speed reduction gearbox is designed to give you a performance increase at a reasonable price, plus it’s made for easy installation. A 1 3/4-27 spline input and...

www.scsgearbox.com

Although that's not a bad idea, I don't think they make anything shiftable?

Edit: I'm an idiot, says 2 speed right there

Any idea on available ratios?

 

[TrailTamer]

Well ya, but if you could flick a lever and have the ratios on the right for certain situations it would be pretty awesome no?

I messed with few Chrysler trans, 42RLE, 46RE, 47RE, etc.

I entertained the idea of to get fancy. These trans’ rear half is the overdrive unit. What if we make it a unit similar to gear vendor to go between trans and t-case (or tailhousing if 2wd). Flip a switch on the fly for 0.69 overdrive. Pump run off overdrive unit’s input shaft for oiling & pressure to actuate clutch.

Like I said, this is bench racing, not what's practical or realistic cost wise.

✅

I'm not worried about it holding up, I don't want a ton of power or anything.

Towing in overdrive subject trans’s input shaft’s gear, countershaft, overdrive gears and related to continuous heavy load. Accelerates wear & tear and metal fatigue on gear teeth. Direct gear nulls all of that, logically best to be available & used on steep grades.

Eating cake and all, but like I said bench racing.

✅

Turns in as in less fuel or more? I have about 7 miles on it, so I haven't touched anything power wise. It does smoke more than I'd like, so hopefully you mean less fuel.

Yes. Turn in = more pre-spool fuel.
I had same thoughts and didn’t turn it in more. And no not automatically means you’ll have more smoke.

 

[06h3]

I still like your brownie box.

1.2/1/0.80? Iirc

2.31, 1.21,1:1, .83

 

[YotaAtieToo]

2.31, 1.21,1:1, .83

How big is it?

Although the 2.31 probably isn't necessary unless you don't already have low range, the other 3 would be awesome.

How much you want for it?

 

[06h3]

How big is it?

Although the 2.31 probably isn't necessary unless you don't already have low range, the other 3 would be awesome.

How much you want for it?

It’s pretty damn big and heavy. I’ll get measurements for you when I get home.

It’s brand new, never ran, old stock. Just doesn’t have yokes. I found a yard in eastern Idaho that has piles of yokes for big old shit. I gotta go back there with the aux box to match it up

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Ironically jr4x was talking about brownies in another thread. He said he's seen some that were pretty small. Like smaller than a granny 4 speed with no bell. I'd love to find one that size.

 

[06h3]

Those are the 5XXX boxes. Mine is a 7041. Supposedly the 7 stands for 700 max torque input but seeing the size of the box and the size of the gears I call BS

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Those are the 5XXX boxes. Mine is a 7041. Supposedly the 7 stands for 700 max torque input but seeing the size of the box and the size of the gears I call BS

Tq ratings are funny. I think they subscribe to the "see what it will take then divide by 3"

Also, how does input tq work when it's an aux trans? Even a 22re In front of a 10 speed can generate 700ftlbs in lower gears.

 

[06h3]

Exactly what I thought. My gut says a 7041 can handle much more abuse than what it’s rated for.

A local guy to me had a customer break a 8341C break. The driver got stuck in a field hauling 66k lbs gross in a semi. The dumbass driver was in overdrive in the aux box and killed the OD gear set. He said that brownie box survived for a long time under that truck but the stupidity of the driver killed it. I’d imagine the 5XXX box’s will do just fine