Steering Reservoir Tech (and Demo)

[RadialDynamics]

Miller is sponsored by Howe I think.
Last time I checked (June this year at AOP) he was running their resi.
They hot swapped a pump again during the race there. Cost them 15mn and the win.

I think that Josh Blyler has all Radial Dynamics stuff on his car and was super happy about it when we talked.

This is accurate, both Josh and Rusty are running my parts on the Big B fleet (which is now up to 4 cars).

Using the drill to drive a belt will be perfect, glad to hear the pump arrived safe!

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

You're making it hard not to buy your fancy resi

Dooooo iiiiiiit!

 

[Bebop]

Dooooo iiiiiiit!

Gonna have to wait a pay period or 2

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I won't say that you should not consider a reservoir with filter combo but if you do, be prepared to spend some time trying to get the system properly bled of air.

Radial Dynamics reservoir $845
Radial Dynamics filter $125- $400
= Ability to hot swap a steering component during a race without time to purge air = $970-$1245

Howe reservoir/filter $305
= System needs to be purged of air during initial startup after hot swaping parts = $305

If you are racing and do not have time to purge the system after a hot swap on a steering component then the Radial Dynamics components could be worth the 400% cost.
If you are a recreational wheeler and can wait the few minutes to purge the system and occasionally turn the motor off and on until it is purged then you could save the $665-$940.

Many people already think the Howe system ($305) is too expensive compared to the smaller PSC version ($175) that Slawson/Bomber has used to win as much or more KOH crowns than any other system.

I think Radial Dynamics is pricing themselves out of the market.
Look at the PSC and Howe reservoirs, CNC lower and CNC cap assemblies with quality welds.
Yes the Radial Dynamics system has R&D costs to recover, but 300%-400% over the competition is going to stop many consumers from buying.
Drop to a more competitive price and the system will outsell the competition.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Vortex separators has been around a long time. Separating debris from air and liquid is probably the most common. Dust separating for air systems and filters. Sand and other heavy debris separating for water. Even your toilet has a vortex.
Air from liquid is probably second use for the design. I would guess most of the designs originated from aviation in the early days of development.

Here is an air/water separator I put together for a fertigation skid designed for around 50GPM, 8" dia. x 40" tall x 1.5" working ports. Fertigation is a fancy word for injecting liquid fertilizer into irrigation systems. This is also the reason my buggy is not finished and I I have hardly no time to post these days. Cool job, but rushing to get prototypes to market.

The vortex or inlet at tangent spins the incoming water just like the Radial Dynamics reservoir separating the heavier water to the outside from air which stays in the middle. At top dead center is a port which will be connected to continuously venting air purger. The air purger is a floating valve that lets air out and seals when water tries to get out. The tall tank design creates maximum separation distance from the inlet and out and provides more head pressure for the pump. It could have been shorter but there was plenty of room for the extra water capacity.

Reason for the post is to show vortex is a tried and true way to separate materials of different weights, regardless of the industry.

 

[RadialDynamics]

Time for another tech demo! This time demonstrating the audible difference in the tone of a pump at high RPM both with and without pressure in the reservoir. All hydraulic pumps have to deal with cavitation to an extent, especially at the drive speeds experienced in off-road rigs (at least for those who are throttle happy). Aside from making sure that the proper hose size is selected for the flow rate, pressurizing the reservoir is one of the simplest ways to reduce cavitation and this video demonstrates the difference between normal pump/motor noise at high speed operation versus the steady, high pitched tone caused by cavitation.

 

[Norcalpr]

Freakin smart. I already plumbed in an additional catch can to my psc resi. Seems like a easy add would be to add a 10psi prv, and a vac breaker to keep the resi under pressure at all times. This rig has already been thru one pump, wouldn't hurt...

 

[Norcalpr]

Thinking about it more, I think I'm just going to ditch the can to eliminate the added airspace that probably wouldn't let the resi get up to pressure.

Just going to drill and tap to add a vent onto the psc cap, and add a check valve to the breather line.

I'll report back if I ever get my rig done and off jackstands 😂

 

[Bebop]

Thinking about it more, I think I'm just going to ditch the can to eliminate the added airspace that probably wouldn't let the resi get up to pressure.

Just going to drill and tap to add a vent onto the psc cap, and add a check valve to the breather line.

I'll report back if I ever get my rig done and off jackstands 😂

Look back into the thread.
I already posted a $18 solution for this issue with the same parts as the fancy PSC add-on.

 

[Norcalpr]

Look back into the thread.
I already posted a $18 solution for this issue with the same parts as the fancy PSC add-on.

Yeah I saw that one, but the 6psi wasn't enough?

I was able to find this one on motion. Sae12 fitting though. And a .7 bar (10psi) relief.

https://www.motionindustries.com/products/sku/08594613;orderDetail=true

All the other ones either weren't the right one, or needed some minimum order like you were saying. This one may be a viable option

 

[Bebop]

Nice, go for it.

I ended up blowing my pump and shit. Going back under the knife.

 

[Norcalpr]

Placed qn order, we'll see what shipping is...

Also ordered a female sae12 cap so I can drill and tap it for a barb fitting, then I'll just weld on a tab to mount it.

 

[Norcalpr]

Back to the drawing board, 16 weeks out for that one vent

 

[Im4yotas]

You can always do a weld on radiator filler neck or plumb an inline filler neck to the cap

 

[Norcalpr]

You can always do a weld on radiator filler neck or plumb an inline filler neck to the cap

Almost debating this. All the other .7 bar hydac caps were 16 weeks out. Elesa makes some .7bar caps as well, but I can't find them anywhere...

Although I do like the more hidden version by using the relief/check valves

 

[Norcalpr]

Found donaldson makes one. Kinda bulky at a 3" diameter, but it was the only one I could find...

Donaldson P563371 - RENIFLARD, HYDRAULIQUE

Acheter Donaldson P563371 - 3.18 Pouces diamètre extérieur en ligne chez Donaldson. Référencement croisé RENIFLARD, HYDRAULIQUE en ligne pour l'ajustement parfait.

shop.donaldson.com

10psi relief, 40 micron filter. 3/4" npt. 40ish bucks...

 

[arse_sidewards]

Found donaldson makes one. Kinda bulky at a 3" diameter, but it was the only one I could find...

Donaldson P563371 - RENIFLARD, HYDRAULIQUE

Acheter Donaldson P563371 - 3.18 Pouces diamètre extérieur en ligne chez Donaldson. Référencement croisé RENIFLARD, HYDRAULIQUE en ligne pour l'ajustement parfait.

shop.donaldson.com

10psi relief, 40 micron filter. 3/4" npt. 40ish bucks...

That seems like the kind of thing Donaldson only makes so they can make an easy buck off the customers who want a one stop shop for their whole setup.

Those specs don't seem like anything a $10 breather won't do.

 

[94toytruck]

Anyone take one of these fancy PSC vent valves apart? I'd really like to be able to run a vent line to the ground instead of having it mist fluid out around the plastic cap.

 

[Norcalpr]

That seems like the kind of thing Donaldson only makes so they can make an easy buck off the customers who want a one stop shop for their whole setup.

Those specs don't seem like anything a $10 breather won't do.

They have cheapie 10 dollar breathers, but there's no valve in it to pressurize the resi, it's just open to the atmosphere.

The valve makes it bulkier and pricier...

 

[Norcalpr]

Donaldson breather showed up. Opted for this one rather than the check valve idea since any air that enters now will be filtered. Cracks open at 10psi and at vacuum.

3/4" npt so it'll be easy to adapt a barb fitting to it.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

PSC uses a HYDAC breather, not sure of the specs, I believe they spec a pressure holding limit on the breather so it will pressurize the system.
On the old HydroDynamic buggy I ran one of these when I had a conventional reservoir.
I still have one in storage and will probably run it on the new steering system even thought it is overkill in flow/CFM. Made a bolt on tab adapter so it can be remote mounted.
The cool function of these is that they remove and keep moisture out of the system.
They also trap oil vapor and splash.

 

[Norcalpr]

Finally able to update this thread.

Added the breather I posted earlier. Steering is silent, even after the oil warms up. Thanks again to Radial Dynamics for putting in the effort to show everyone the science behind it. If I ever have a pump go out or a buddy that needs a steering system, I'll be sure to go with you 👍

Also since we're kinda on the topic, I went with a hydraulic oil for my fluid. Mobil 1 DTE 24 Ultra. It's a ISO32 oil and it seems like it's performing really well (so far). Was also about 30 bucks on Amazon for a gallon of it. The wear specs seemed better than the swepco that everyone swears by, and from what I could find, the swepco is about the same weight.

 

[Bray D]

Thinking about it more, I think I'm just going to ditch the can to eliminate the added airspace that probably wouldn't let the resi get up to pressure.

Just going to drill and tap to add a vent onto the psc cap, and add a check valve to the breather line.

I'll report back if I ever get my rig done and off jackstands 😂

I did exactly this a couple years ago. I still have cavitation issues with my setup at frigid temps, but that's a discussion for another thread (which already exists).

Can't say whether this was a game changer for my setup or not, but I did it and haven't found any negative effects other than my cap getting a little wet from time to time when it builds pressure and pushes fluid out of the PRV.

I machined the vacuum check valve to keep it as low as possible. That's the one offset from center. PRV takes the place of the original vent line right in the middle of the cap.

McMaster-Carr part numbers
0.3psi Vacuum Check Valve: 7775K41
7.5psi PRV: 1093K2

 

[Peter S]

Waiting for test and connecting tubes.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I cant remember where I was going to follow up on the Howe reservoir rad cap venting flow path, so here is as good as any thread.
Who ever I talked to at Howe was old school and knew antidotal tried and proven knowledge vs. engineering mindset. Having a engineering mindset, I appreciate the tried and proven antidotal knowledge. They know what works even though they don't know why. I tend to accept and believe their input even if I fundamentally do not agree with them.
The rad cap on the Howe reservoir uses a port on the upper seat of the main relief valve. This port can not flow enough to use a liquid overflow tank similar to a engine cooling system. The second baffle is the operational liquid level. The port should only be venting air from the system at 15PSI.
What I was hung up on that without the typical cooling system neck side port that allows air to enter when cooling the reservoir would be lower than atmospheric pressure when cooling. What I learned was that in reality the system does not seal perfectly and create a vacuum and the system resets to atmospheric pressure when off overnight or for a significant amount of time while the air leaks back in and resets the pressure build up process.
Old school guy kept kicking the dead horse talking about height of components and air bubble flow path to highest point to purge the system when off. EVERYTHING should be lower than the reservoir so that any air in the lines will float to the reservoir when system is off. He believed that any trapped air would not be able to work it way to the reservoir at idle and would mix with the oil or travel through the system causing problems. The system HAS TO BE purged of air during install, service, or race prep. He did say that it can take a year or more to accumulate enough air to notice a problem but when people do not purge the system at maintenance intervals you can expect issues to occur.
In reality it is hard to get everything to flow upward perfectly. I figure that if I can keep everything nearly flat then the bubbles will be pushed along at idle and work their way to the reservoir to be purged.
This is where I fight breaking the cookie cutter build mindset and doing something more complicated. Its not like every Howe system is broken down on the side of the trail. Then I think of way crappier systems making way to the podiums.
Still not settled...

 

[gt1guy]

I cant remember where I was going to follow up on the Howe reservoir rad cap venting flow path, so here is as good as any thread.

I believe it was this thread.

A wolf in Jeeps clothing - Goatbuilt 1200 LJ/TJ Chassis build

Just realized that Howe makes a special vent port design. Still thinking about why they do this... This port design removes the ability of the inlet check to bring in fluid or air when cold and contracting. The main pressure seal will close the hole at all times not allowing air to enter back...

irate4x4.com

 

[Bebop]

I cant remember where I was going to follow up on the Howe reservoir rad cap venting flow path, so here is as good as any thread.
Who ever I talked to at Howe was old school and knew antidotal tried and proven knowledge vs. engineering mindset. Having a engineering mindset, I appreciate the tried and proven antidotal knowledge. They know what works even though they don't know why. I tend to accept and believe their input even if I fundamentally do not agree with them.
The rad cap on the Howe reservoir uses a port on the upper seat of the main relief valve. This port can not flow enough to use a liquid overflow tank similar to a engine cooling system. The second baffle is the operational liquid level. The port should only be venting air from the system at 15PSI.
What I was hung up on that without the typical cooling system neck side port that allows air to enter when cooling the reservoir would be lower than atmospheric pressure when cooling. What I learned was that in reality the system does not seal perfectly and create a vacuum and the system resets to atmospheric pressure when off overnight or for a significant amount of time while the air leaks back in and resets the pressure build up process.
Old school guy kept kicking the dead horse talking about height of components and air bubble flow path to highest point to purge the system when off. EVERYTHING should be lower than the reservoir so that any air in the lines will float to the reservoir when system is off. He believed that any trapped air would not be able to work it way to the reservoir at idle and would mix with the oil or travel through the system causing problems. The system HAS TO BE purged of air during install, service, or race prep. He did say that it can take a year or more to accumulate enough air to notice a problem but when people do not purge the system at maintenance intervals you can expect issues to occur.
In reality it is hard to get everything to flow upward perfectly. I figure that if I can keep everything nearly flat then the bubbles will be pushed along at idle and work their way to the reservoir to be purged.
This is where I fight breaking the cookie cutter build mindset and doing something more complicated. Its not like every Howe system is broken down on the side of the trail. Then I think of way crappier systems making way to the podiums.
Still not settled...

Good read.

One of the reasons I went with the RD resi. was not to worry about this. Thing just works.

Eric also made a video showing how component height does not matter IF your circuit is purged properly.

 

[TimJus]

hydac breather has filter element and pressure relief inside.

outer cover is just pressed to bottom part. comes out easily.

relief has adjustment screw for spring tension. using pressure gauge and air supply one can adjust the relief pressure

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Here is an idea I had for a pressurized reservoir that does not rely on thermal expansion to provide pressure for the system.
Thermal expansion takes time and can leak and once it leaks you are not going to have a continuous expanding action to pressurize the system back up to rad cap or vent cap pressure.
If you have air lockers or OBA or any other low flow air source you can run a low pressure regulator that pressurizes the system to whatever the regulator is set at. The one shown in the picture is 3 PSI. It was some random surplus reg. that was in a box of stuff that a company dumped off at the CalPoly labs for projects, tweaking, whatever in order to get a tax write off. When digging through the gold I thought Oh this thing is cool, someday Ill use this for something. Original idea was to pressurize differentials, gearboxes, planetaries, and electrical enclosures for water crossings, so thermal contraction of cooing parts did not pull low pressure and suck in water. Again, maybe too complicated, but it would work very well and its stupid simple to implement.

 

[Portmod7]

Great thread! I have run into cavitation issues on my new build and was looking for a little input from the brains in here.

I'm pretty new to all of this stuff and built a front/rear steer buggy. I got a PSC system with the CBR pump and reservoir with the filter inside the can. My engine is the 4.3 V6 with the stock 7.75" crank pulley and a 6" pulley on my pump.

I don't have a tach, but when I rev the motor, I'm guessing around 3k rpm, the pump cavitates. This is sitting on jackstands, no steering input, just free revving the engine. I have a -12 feed line, -8 pressure line, reservoir is fully above and right in front of the pump. However, I have the ports on the reservoir pointed forward, so I have to run a 180° right out of the reservoir, then 10" of the PSC supplied push-loc style hose, into a 120° into the pump. Feed line is downhill all the way. By the time I include the fitting centerline arc length, my feed line is about 20", not ideal. But, I feel like it's about as good as it's gonna get in my vehicle.

In testing, pressure on the system seems to help a lot, more than shortening the feed line. I have ordered a motorcycle style radiator cap setup to weld to my PSC reservoir cap with the intent to keep pressure on the system, I'll have a Schrader valve and I figure I'll carry a small bicycle pump to be able to add pressure if needed when it cools off.

I am also considering changing my feed to a -16, but I'm not sure how to feel about running through -12 to -16 adapter fittings at each end, just to have -16 in the middle. Any input on that? Especially at the pump end, any concern of hurting laminar flow, introducing low pressure through Bernoulli's, or any other fancy fluid dynamics principal into the pump running a reducer fitting like that?

Thanks!