Bebop
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What do you mean by "stock system"?
100% untouched factory steering?
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Steering Reservoir Tech (and Demo)
- Thread starter RadialDynamics
- Start date
100% untouched factory steering?
meaning not an aftermarket high flow PSC/Others pump, not a big bore gear, no hydro assist. Assuming geometry/linkage isn’t an issue.
I’m going to be rebuilding my hydraulic system, new factory pump, rebuilt gear, new hoses, clean fluid, new cooler, as good as factory components can work, will the Radial / PSC / Lee resi make a noticeable improvement to improve the system over a regular factory resi?
Isdtbower
In for Tech
Eric is the guru but: If the system is cavitating (noise on high pressure use) then the reservoir can have a LOT to do with it. First is not getting all the bubbles out of the oil in the resi or not providing enough flow to the pump starting a "vacuum" in the lines which promotes the start of oil/air bubbles.
So resi and line size kinda go together for resolving those issues. (The Cliff Notes)
So resi and line size kinda go together for resolving those issues. (The Cliff Notes)
My uneducated theory here - I’m figuring the mechanical force that OEMs factor into their gear and pump design has some buffer to it, meaning they should still be sufficient to move reasonably larger tires in tough spots. I’m guessing the issue quickly becomes over heated and over worked fluid continuously ingesting air and therefore more heat and so the dwindling spiral goes.
I’m wondering if the easy band aid is just throw a Ram assist cylinder on and brute force overcome the inefficiencies caused by bad fluid control.
Bebop
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you will need a higher flowing pump, cooler, resi (basically a full revamp) to be able to keep up with a ram assist.
So your system won't be stock anymore. And yes his resi would be much better.
arse_sidewards
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I tend to agree.
People were tapping boxes for ram-assist and were really, really happy with the results for decades.
Most OEM systems are pretty quick. Throw on a slightly smaller pulley and it will still be fine for most people most of the time.
Just because something would be much better doesn't mean it would result in substantive performance improvement to the overall system. You don't see people putting 9000RPM rods and forged slugs in engines that are gonna have a mild cam and stock heads.
Sorry for clogging up the thread with newb stuff, before I stop clogging, any recommendations on good reading/resources to understand TC pumps, P pumps, CB pumps, as they apply to off road and our applications? Same with gear boxes...
There's a lot of information just thrown around on the web and it's hard to sort through the BS. Even if at the end of the day the best answer is "just buy a kit from XYZ that has the pump/box/resi/ram", I'd still be interested in knowing why it's worth that money.
Like, what's different about this PSC pump other than the under drive pulley and fittings that makes it worth $300 more than this same style pump from a random manufacture? I believe these are both TC pumps, has PSC done something internally to theirs to make it flow better?
There's a lot of information just thrown around on the web and it's hard to sort through the BS. Even if at the end of the day the best answer is "just buy a kit from XYZ that has the pump/box/resi/ram", I'd still be interested in knowing why it's worth that money.
Like, what's different about this PSC pump other than the under drive pulley and fittings that makes it worth $300 more than this same style pump from a random manufacture? I believe these are both TC pumps, has PSC done something internally to theirs to make it flow better?
Sean
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Look at the flow rates....you're paying for the necessary volume to run more than just a steering gear box....you also have to fill the added volume of the cylinder and push the relatively large shaft inside it among a whole host of other things.Sorry for clogging up the thread with newb stuff, before I stop clogging, any recommendations on good reading/resources to understand TC pumps, P pumps, CB pumps, as they apply to off road and our applications? Same with gear boxes...
There's a lot of information just thrown around on the web and it's hard to sort through the BS. Even if at the end of the day the best answer is "just buy a kit from XYZ that has the pump/box/resi/ram", I'd still be interested in knowing why it's worth that money.
Like, what's different about this PSC pump other than the under drive pulley and fittings that makes it worth $300 more than this same style pump from a random manufacture? I believe these are both TC pumps, has PSC done something internally to theirs to make it flow better?
Fact is: steering is probably THE most important thing on a vehicle. It's not where you skimp and matched/engineered systems are going to be far better than something cobbled together by someone who doesn't really know what they are doing.
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No doubt on that last part.
This kind of post from the OP in a different thread is exactly the type of stuff I'm looking for, he explains what you're actually paying for when you're buying a pump from Radial.
CBR Steering Pumps - OEM Applications?
What’s the story on OEM CBR power steering pumps? I’ve been reading some cool steering tech from years back, but CBRs were relatively new to the scene. They seem like a pretty big go-to in the aftermarket these days, but who’s running some parts store CBRs? Those old threads were saying like...
irate4x4.com
the value is in reliable flow rates, pressure and performance. hydro boost guys have issues with performance with reman’d pumps because the performance is all over the place. parts stores are not flow testing their stuff to ensure it meets specific standards. its not uncommon for two rigs to have the same parts house steering system and one to run better than the other.
Weasel
Red Skull Member
Psc used to blueprint their pumps. Or bench test. That stopped years ago from what I've read.
RadialDynamics
Yellow Skull
I really need to write a tech article if I can ever find some free hours one of these days about the fundamental differences between the various pump types... TC/CB/CBR/P/TT/RDT. Time is short these days though so I'll say this; Although several pumps look similar externally like the TC, CBR and CB which all bolt in place of each other, all three have fundamentally different designs that affect strength and reliability. Even since the CBR thread linked above from a couple years ago, I have learned tenfold.
Among pumps of a given type, the automotive manufactures that use them in production vehicles have many different specifications for displacement/rev, flow regulation, relief pressure, shaft size/type, fitting size/type, and even materials of construction. When you get a parts store reman pump, it will have whatever internals the remanufacturer could get their hands on so it's all a crap shoot. Even with new pumps, there are so many overseas factories that make knock off pumps out of spec, the cheap ones can be hit or miss.
A good aftermarket company will source pumps or pump components directly from the actual OEM factory or produce their own aftermarket. I do both with my TC lines of pumps and on my RDT pumps, they are mostly built from scratch with only a small selection of components that come directly from an OEM application.
My new Trail Series TC pumps (that reminds me, I need to announce these here on Irate) are a lower-budget pump that is sourced fully assembled from the OEM factory. What I do is inspect every pump visually and dyno test a random sample lot of pumps that is satisfactory to ANSI quality standards to determine that if all samples test good, there is acceptably low risk of a bad pump in that batch.
Meanwhile, my more expensive Pro Series TC pumps are sourced as individual components with upgraded materials for many of the internals and are hand assembled then 100% dyno tested in-house.
The higher grade of construction and the more quality that goes into it, the more the pump will cost.
Getting back to fl0w3n's question, the vortex reservoir will benefit a non-high flow system but since a non-high flow system is generally not pushing the limits as much as a high flow system, whether or not the extra cost of the vortex reservoir is worth it for that application is up to you. The higher the steering system performance, the more valuable the reservoir becomes to condition the pump feed.
Among pumps of a given type, the automotive manufactures that use them in production vehicles have many different specifications for displacement/rev, flow regulation, relief pressure, shaft size/type, fitting size/type, and even materials of construction. When you get a parts store reman pump, it will have whatever internals the remanufacturer could get their hands on so it's all a crap shoot. Even with new pumps, there are so many overseas factories that make knock off pumps out of spec, the cheap ones can be hit or miss.
A good aftermarket company will source pumps or pump components directly from the actual OEM factory or produce their own aftermarket. I do both with my TC lines of pumps and on my RDT pumps, they are mostly built from scratch with only a small selection of components that come directly from an OEM application.
My new Trail Series TC pumps (that reminds me, I need to announce these here on Irate) are a lower-budget pump that is sourced fully assembled from the OEM factory. What I do is inspect every pump visually and dyno test a random sample lot of pumps that is satisfactory to ANSI quality standards to determine that if all samples test good, there is acceptably low risk of a bad pump in that batch.
Meanwhile, my more expensive Pro Series TC pumps are sourced as individual components with upgraded materials for many of the internals and are hand assembled then 100% dyno tested in-house.
The higher grade of construction and the more quality that goes into it, the more the pump will cost.
Getting back to fl0w3n's question, the vortex reservoir will benefit a non-high flow system but since a non-high flow system is generally not pushing the limits as much as a high flow system, whether or not the extra cost of the vortex reservoir is worth it for that application is up to you. The higher the steering system performance, the more valuable the reservoir becomes to condition the pump feed.
As always, top notch answers and info! I was looking at the Trail Series the other day, I'm glad you went into more detail.
While the reservoir might be overkill on a non-high flow system, it could easily be pulled and transferred to the next build or kept as things progress to a higher flow system so that is one thing to consider even on a budget.
Same concept for the pump, knowing what applications can work with what platforms would help inform a buying decision there if it makes sense to invest.
Might just need to give you a call to ask some newb questions about where to spend my money
While the reservoir might be overkill on a non-high flow system, it could easily be pulled and transferred to the next build or kept as things progress to a higher flow system so that is one thing to consider even on a budget.
Same concept for the pump, knowing what applications can work with what platforms would help inform a buying decision there if it makes sense to invest.
Might just need to give you a call to ask some newb questions about where to spend my money
RadialDynamics
Yellow Skull
Anytime, just give me a call at 413-776-5281
HYDRODYNAMIC
Rock Stacker
I think there is a fundamental flaw in the concept of pressurizing a steering reservoir.
Relying on a single heat cycle with a very small air chamber with not perfectly sealing valves allows the pressure to drop. Oil does not continuously generate pressure at a rate similar to boiling water. So once the pressure is lost, it will have to go through a heat cycle to repressurize. The heat cycle is not instant either while under startup.
I think the pressure needs to come from either a sealed system with external force or an air pressurized system.
The CFM needed is only as much as the air leaking from the caps, vents, or valves.
A 10PSI compressed air regulator or fixed rate orifice with a 10PSI relief cap or vent would keep the system pressurized at all times. Possibly a small air pump could be used, it is low pressure and CFM, doesn’t need much power.
Relying on a single heat cycle with a very small air chamber with not perfectly sealing valves allows the pressure to drop. Oil does not continuously generate pressure at a rate similar to boiling water. So once the pressure is lost, it will have to go through a heat cycle to repressurize. The heat cycle is not instant either while under startup.
I think the pressure needs to come from either a sealed system with external force or an air pressurized system.
The CFM needed is only as much as the air leaking from the caps, vents, or valves.
A 10PSI compressed air regulator or fixed rate orifice with a 10PSI relief cap or vent would keep the system pressurized at all times. Possibly a small air pump could be used, it is low pressure and CFM, doesn’t need much power.
Bebop
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Isn't that what RadialDynamics does with the monster truck reservoir ?
RadialDynamics
Yellow Skull
I put a schrader valve on the monster truck reservoirs so that teams can precharge a few psi before starting if they so choose but otherwise, they still have a radiator cap relying on thermal expansion.
While a fixed regulator of nitrogen charge would be technically an excellent solution and I absolutely support anyone's decision to do so, I personally view it as diminishing returns on unnecessary additional complexity.
Yes it's true that max reservoir pressure will only be achieved at the initial point of the steering fluid hitting max temp for a given heat cycle but I look at two priorities being simplicity and risk level. A sealed system with a piston or diaphragm and a spring or nitrogen charge would be great but for someone not understanding how much room they need to leave for thermal expansion, which is ultimately vehicle/application specific, there is too much risk that the average builder could leave inadequate room in the tank which will cause far more damage than a bit of cavitation from an atmospheric reservoir.
The other point to keep in mind is that up until now, most people have either been using a radiator cap which has proven itself to have a low enough leak down rate to still maintain beneficial pressure during a day of wheel or others have been using the PSC anti-splash valve that holds next to no pressure at all.
As I have been developing my new breather valve, leak down is something I have paid close attention to and found that once the seals/seats have a little bit of oil lubrication (which I apply during assembly but will also inevitably happen anyways during use), they seal quite well. Less than 1 psi per hour leak down from max pressure and that rate slows as pressure does reduce, due to decreasing pressure differential from reservoir to atmosphere.
Add the anti-vacuum valve that is integrated into it and this means that the reservoir can only ever be between atmospheric and 10 psi positive pressure. Sure, an atmospheric reservoir isn't ideal at high rpm but it's not instantly catastrophic and chances are likely that if you are spending a day wheeling, you will be maintaining at least a few psi in the reservoir at any given time. In all of the testing I have done on my dyno, even 1-2 psi results in a noticeable reduction in pump noise.
Now consider the Howe reservoir with a radiator cap but having the overflow port designed in such a way that the anti-vacuum function is disabled. If steering temperatures drop during a day (like perhaps taking an hour break for lunch or stopping to heckle your buddies), now you have already vented air that won't be allowed back in until you remove the cap so the absolute reservoir pressure range isn't just 0 to 10 psi, it's some undetermined amount of vacuum to 10 psi.
The final point I will make is related to timing of reservoir pressure. Steering temps fluctuate constantly while driving depending on how hard the steering system is being worked and positive reservoir pressure is most valuable at high rpm, when the vehicle is being driven hard. During hard driving, fluid heats up fairly quickly which means that in times of the hardest driving, the reservoir pressure is increasing regardless of where in the heat cycle the steering temps have been prior.
Yes, there are more complex ways to make reservoir pressure constant and perfect but for the above reasons, I would argue there is nothing at all fundamentally flawed about relying on thermal expansion to build reservoir pressure.
While a fixed regulator of nitrogen charge would be technically an excellent solution and I absolutely support anyone's decision to do so, I personally view it as diminishing returns on unnecessary additional complexity.
Yes it's true that max reservoir pressure will only be achieved at the initial point of the steering fluid hitting max temp for a given heat cycle but I look at two priorities being simplicity and risk level. A sealed system with a piston or diaphragm and a spring or nitrogen charge would be great but for someone not understanding how much room they need to leave for thermal expansion, which is ultimately vehicle/application specific, there is too much risk that the average builder could leave inadequate room in the tank which will cause far more damage than a bit of cavitation from an atmospheric reservoir.
The other point to keep in mind is that up until now, most people have either been using a radiator cap which has proven itself to have a low enough leak down rate to still maintain beneficial pressure during a day of wheel or others have been using the PSC anti-splash valve that holds next to no pressure at all.
As I have been developing my new breather valve, leak down is something I have paid close attention to and found that once the seals/seats have a little bit of oil lubrication (which I apply during assembly but will also inevitably happen anyways during use), they seal quite well. Less than 1 psi per hour leak down from max pressure and that rate slows as pressure does reduce, due to decreasing pressure differential from reservoir to atmosphere.
Add the anti-vacuum valve that is integrated into it and this means that the reservoir can only ever be between atmospheric and 10 psi positive pressure. Sure, an atmospheric reservoir isn't ideal at high rpm but it's not instantly catastrophic and chances are likely that if you are spending a day wheeling, you will be maintaining at least a few psi in the reservoir at any given time. In all of the testing I have done on my dyno, even 1-2 psi results in a noticeable reduction in pump noise.
Now consider the Howe reservoir with a radiator cap but having the overflow port designed in such a way that the anti-vacuum function is disabled. If steering temperatures drop during a day (like perhaps taking an hour break for lunch or stopping to heckle your buddies), now you have already vented air that won't be allowed back in until you remove the cap so the absolute reservoir pressure range isn't just 0 to 10 psi, it's some undetermined amount of vacuum to 10 psi.
The final point I will make is related to timing of reservoir pressure. Steering temps fluctuate constantly while driving depending on how hard the steering system is being worked and positive reservoir pressure is most valuable at high rpm, when the vehicle is being driven hard. During hard driving, fluid heats up fairly quickly which means that in times of the hardest driving, the reservoir pressure is increasing regardless of where in the heat cycle the steering temps have been prior.
Yes, there are more complex ways to make reservoir pressure constant and perfect but for the above reasons, I would argue there is nothing at all fundamentally flawed about relying on thermal expansion to build reservoir pressure.
RadialDynamics
Yellow Skull
The Gen II style Vortex Steering Reservoir is now available in the larger 4" flavor.
Similar to the Gen II 3.5" size, this new design is a fully machined assembly with two inlet return ports, -12ORB and -6ORB for hydroboost, a -16 ORB outlet port, and the same oil-trapping fluid containment cap that keeps oil where it belongs, inside the reservoir. The assembly measures 4"OD by 8.75" overall height (not including vent swivel elbow).
Use this 4" reservoir size for high flow pump applications above 6 GPM including the Radial Dynamics RDT pump, "Trophy Truck" pumps, and non-regulated industrial gear pumps. For lower flow applications up to and including 6 GPM such as the Pro Series TC steering pump, the 3.5" reservoir is the size of choice.
Don't forget to add a Radial Dynamics Reservoir Breather Valve for the ultimate fluid conditioning to keep your pump happy!
Similar to the Gen II 3.5" size, this new design is a fully machined assembly with two inlet return ports, -12ORB and -6ORB for hydroboost, a -16 ORB outlet port, and the same oil-trapping fluid containment cap that keeps oil where it belongs, inside the reservoir. The assembly measures 4"OD by 8.75" overall height (not including vent swivel elbow).
Use this 4" reservoir size for high flow pump applications above 6 GPM including the Radial Dynamics RDT pump, "Trophy Truck" pumps, and non-regulated industrial gear pumps. For lower flow applications up to and including 6 GPM such as the Pro Series TC steering pump, the 3.5" reservoir is the size of choice.
Don't forget to add a Radial Dynamics Reservoir Breather Valve for the ultimate fluid conditioning to keep your pump happy!
HYDRODYNAMIC
Rock Stacker
Just reread the thread as I’m firing off the new buggy and not sure about the steering.
When I was mounting the cooler up higher I had a feeling it would be a pain to purge the air and sure enough it is. The air cannot move to the reservoir, so I had to vacuum the reservoir to get the air out. It works great once done and throws around the 40’s with a pinky but I rather not have to deal with purging if I loose fluid or intake air. So I will be switching from the Howe to the Radial Dynamics reservoir, but not sure of which size.
The pump flow determines the size of the reservoir. If I stay with the CBR non regulated I should run the 4" res if drop down in pump size to the TC I can run the 3.5" res. This also means adding in a remote filter as the RD res doesn't have a filter.
Still in the back of my mind is that Campbells run the same Howe res and Bombers run the same PSC CBR and why shouldn't it be good enough?
Id rather tear it down, sell off the newish parts and rework it now rather than put it off and do it later.
When I was mounting the cooler up higher I had a feeling it would be a pain to purge the air and sure enough it is. The air cannot move to the reservoir, so I had to vacuum the reservoir to get the air out. It works great once done and throws around the 40’s with a pinky but I rather not have to deal with purging if I loose fluid or intake air. So I will be switching from the Howe to the Radial Dynamics reservoir, but not sure of which size.
The pump flow determines the size of the reservoir. If I stay with the CBR non regulated I should run the 4" res if drop down in pump size to the TC I can run the 3.5" res. This also means adding in a remote filter as the RD res doesn't have a filter.
Still in the back of my mind is that Campbells run the same Howe res and Bombers run the same PSC CBR and why shouldn't it be good enough?
Id rather tear it down, sell off the newish parts and rework it now rather than put it off and do it later.
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HYDRODYNAMIC
Rock Stacker
Yes, the steering cooler is on the top in a flat position. Not higher than the reservoir, but higher than the inlet to the res. so air will not float up on its own.
any chance you can add a bleeder valve instead of replacing a bunch of stuff?
help me understand your train of thought, how does changing reservoirs increase the fluid velocity to carry out the air?
HYDRODYNAMIC
Rock Stacker
Your not wrong on both accounts, it would purge the air and I wouldn't need to replace everything. Even right now, the steering is smooth and powerful and the air is worked out, just ran it and there is no air in the fluid in the res. so almost everything worked its way out. I can barely outturn the wheel before the pump cant keep up at idle. Some people would be happy to have that at mid to high rpm.
The RD reservoir can remove the air without having to start and stop the engine or run at low rpm, just cranking over or crack lines to bleed air or having to rev to max rpm to get velocities high enough to get out all trapped air but at the same time too fast to work themselves out at the res. The RD does it by itself. My last buggy was so complicated I am trying to dumb this way down so my kids and myself don't have to think when working on it.
The other part is life of the pump. If the system is cool, clean, and free of air it will last until it wears out. Clean and cool is checked, air has not been checked. Cavitation and or aeration will take a pump out early. Some systems are meant to be full performance and the pumps get changed out or rebuilt before the cavitation takes them out on the race course or trail. I want this system to have longer service intervals.
so the thought is that the reservoir can clean up any carry over over time WHILE supplying fluid without air to the pump. so letting the problem resolve its self over time?
HYDRODYNAMIC
Rock Stacker
Exactly, its a continuous maintenance purge.
Slander
Team no stickys
After popping off the return line (my fault) and losing all fluid, and then a hydro ram line 3 times, losing most of the fluid each time, on the trip after, glad I had this res as all I had to do was fill the fluid, start it up and watch it bubble for a few seconds and peel out!
Isdtbower
In for Tech
Are you using aluminum fittings? I have been scolded........
Bebop
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On a return line that's all I use.
Multiple Ultra4 wins with no problems.
On the pressure side steel crimped everything