Self defense? Or not? - Apple River Stabbing

[redneckengineered]

It's probably the correct verdict. I feel like anyone in this thread, even the ones advocating for self defense, could have extracted themselves from that situation without killing anyone. If dude had just brandished the knife I bet people would have backed off real quick. I did not see any my god it's Jason Bourne's in that group.

 

[KacksterK5]

Maybe I just hate this generation of cell phone tattoo kids but I don't think it's the right verdict. See what the sentencing ends up being.

Just a reminder to keep your hands to yourself.

 

[Bonanza]

Bonanza, could you comment on this? Is it normal?

Yes, because the prosecution has the burden of proof. We open first, give evidence first, close first, and give a rebuttal. The rebuttal is supposed to be limited in scope to just the defense arguments, so you can't sandbag and do your whole closing in the second part to prevent defense from chiming in.

Usually I'll do the powerpoint, go through the law, and explain how my evidence proves the element of the crimes in my 1st closing. Then defense goes, and I try to write down everything they say, and in rebuttal go line by line to address defense comments.

 

[Bonanza]

I have no idea what reckless homicide is defined as, first time I've heard that one.


From wikipidia

"
Reckless homicide is a crime in which the perpetrator was aware that their act (or failure to act when there is a legal duty to act) creates significant risk of death or grievous bodily harm in the victim, but ignores the risk and continues to act (or fail to act), and a human death results.[1] It is contrasted with negligent homicide, in which the perpetrator did not have the awareness of the risk, but should have had it.[1]"

Reckless homicide is sometimes called manslaughter. Here's a breakdown for CA law. This isn't concrete but my best way to explain an extremely complicated subject:

1st degree murder- Intentional killing, you wanted to kill the person (You shoot neighbor when he tells you to mow your grass)
2nd degree murder- intentional act, knowing it would/could kill someone; no "malice aforethought" (Throw a brick off empire state building)(catch wife cheating in bed and immediately pull the gun on your hip and shoot)
voluntary manslaughter- intentional act, didn't mean to kill but knew it could (Street racing, your car loses control and you hit a pedestrian); here is where self defense/imperfect self defense come into play
involuntary manslaughter- look down at radio, accidentally drive onto curb and kill someone.

This case seemed like a vol. (Super cool street jargon for voluntary manslaughter) Unless the kids presented a knife, it seemed like bringing out the knife could be the issue. But if it's charged as a murder, the case was murder and a lesser isn't a "win". Surprised this one didn't hang.

 

[Elwenil]

I smell an appeal.

 

[trampas]

I guess i can see that verdict being the best a jury can convict on. I mean, they were confused enough to need to see the video over and over again... and then again one more time.

Didn't watch most of the yt courtroom shit, it seems that Stabby McMiu didn't need to stab. Brandish a knife, at a something something small distance, yeah ok, maybe.

It's my opinion that Nikolai is/was the passive aggressive type. He seemed closed in on his hunt for said phone. Tolerated a buncha clowns screaming, up to a point. Then they got too close and whomever struck who first didn't matter to him, his space was invaded and it bothered him. A little mini rage inside his passive aggressive self acted out, and here we are with homicide.

 

[non-OP]

I still say self defense. Bad verdict based on the video. Once he started to walk away and they pushed him underwater and continued to assault him and he was outnumbered. He stabbed the kid when the kid approached him and initiated contact, Mui didn't go after anyone.

To save face they could have convicted only on the endangering safety part.

 

[WaterH]

It's probably the correct verdict. I feel like anyone in this thread, even the ones advocating for self defense, could have extracted themselves from that situation without killing anyone. If dude had just brandished the knife I bet people would have backed off real quick. I did not see any my god it's Jason Bourne's in that group.

Brandishing the knife might have ended it, or it might have escalated it. Did pushing the girl back end it? Like I said before, they kept escalating it right up until they got hurt. They didn’t stop when they only thought they were getting punched. They only stopped after they realized they were getting stabbed.

Bad verdict for society. It sets a bad example for our young people.

 

[Elwenil]

I probably would not have stopped. After getting punched, I would have seen red and stabbed until my arms were to heavy to move. Based on that, I don't the guy did anything wrong. He was threatened, he eliminated the threat and he walked off. Self preservation kicked in out of fear, not anger. I don't think I would have been able to stop at just chasing them off.

 

[Landslide]

I guess i can see that verdict being the best a jury can convict on. I mean, they were confused enough to need to see the video over and over again... and then again one more time.

Didn't watch most of the yt courtroom shit, it seems that Stabby McMiu didn't need to stab. Brandish a knife, at a something something small distance, yeah ok, maybe.

It's my opinion that Nikolai is/was the passive aggressive type. He seemed closed in on his hunt for said phone. Tolerated a buncha clowns screaming, up to a point. Then they got too close and whomever struck who first didn't matter to him, his space was invaded and it bothered him. A little mini rage inside his passive aggressive self acted out, and here we are with homicide.

I felt he was innocent until I saw one video where he was away from the tubers around ten or so feet then charged at them early on. That moment he should’ve ate his pride and walked away and went back to his group.

One thing I got out of this whole trial. Either video everything or make sure no one else is.

 

[trampas]

Does that mean you personally think he's not guilty?

What are your thoughts on the verdict

 

[Animalmother]

It's my opinion that Nikolai is/was the passive aggressive type. He seemed closed in on his hunt for said phone. Tolerated a buncha clowns screaming, up to a point. Then they got too close and whomever struck who first didn't matter to him, his space was invaded and it bothered him. A little mini rage inside his passive aggressive self acted out, and here we are with homicide.

Sticking 4 or 5 people and killing 1 in the process doesnt sound very passive aggressive to me.

 

[trampas]

Sticking 4 or 5 people and killing 1 in the process doesnt sound very passive aggressive to me.

What i meant/said was, he seems the passive aggressive type. He got caught up in the invaded space, reacted as an introvert might be prone to once heated, and his actions were viewed as irrational/criminal.

 

[Archer]

I felt he was innocent until I saw one video where he was away from the tubers around ten or so feet then charged at them early on. That moment he should’ve ate his pride and walked away and went back to his group.

One thing I got out of this whole trial. Either video everything or make sure no one else is.

Didn't he think they had the phone he was looking for and he went after it and stumbled into them?


.

 

[Yota Up]

Either video everything or make sure no one else is.

How?

You got a pocket EMP?

 

[DMG]

I guess i can see that verdict being the best a jury can convict on. I mean, they were confused enough to need to see the video over and over again... and then again one more time.

Didn't watch most of the yt courtroom shit, it seems that Stabby McMiu didn't need to stab. Brandish a knife, at a something something small distance, yeah ok, maybe.

It's my opinion that Nikolai is/was the passive aggressive type. He seemed closed in on his hunt for said phone. Tolerated a buncha clowns screaming, up to a point. Then they got too close and whomever struck who first didn't matter to him, his space was invaded and it bothered him. A little mini rage inside his passive aggressive self acted out, and here we are with homicide.

That is such a strangely specific comment that I have to wonder if you are projecting. You have no idea what he was thinking.

 

[redneckengineered]

I probably would not have stopped. After getting punched, I would have seen red and stabbed until my arms were to heavy to move. Based on that, I don't the guy did anything wrong. He was threatened, he eliminated the threat and he walked off. Self preservation kicked in out of fear, not anger. I don't think I would have been able to stop at just chasing them off.

You have serious issues man. Might want to talk to somebody.

 

[Hydromaster]

Jurors have found Nicolae Miu guilty of multiple criminal charges, including homicide, in the 2022 Apple River stabbings in Wisconsin.

The jury found Miu guilty of one count of first-degree reckless homicide, four counts of first-degree recklessly endangering safety and one count of battery. The verdict was read in court on Thursday.

Never mind , I’m a day late….sob

 

[DMG]

Did they charge the people that attacked him?

 

[trampas]

That is such a strangely specific comment that I have to wonder if you are projecting. You have no idea what he was thinking.

I've got friends in the past and present that - in some cases have been diagnosed as such. His demeanor mimics those persons, not to a T but it's fortifying my speculations of his thought process.

What do you have.

 

[DMG]

I've got friends in the past and present that - in some cases have been diagnosed as such. His demeanor mimics those persons, not to a T but it's fortifying my speculations of his thought process.

What do you have.

I think he was overly focused on the search for the phone and then the snorkel he lost and the situation took a sudden turn. He realized it late when he was surrounded and got scared and started cutting.

 

[Burns]

This whole thing makes me a little sad. Did the guy need to poke holes in everyone? no. Did the kids instigate 90% of the confrontation? yes......is his life ruin? yes. Dead kids life ruined? yes. Kids seemingly somewhat responsible? assuming theyll have some sort of PTSD, but overall not charged (i dont think) with anything even though they instigated. That last part is what irks me. Havent pinpointed why....but for now, it does :p

 

[BCzuk]

I wonder if he had handled himself differently after the incident if things would have went better for the self defense case

 

[DMG]

I wonder if he had handled himself differently after the incident if things would have went better for the self defense case

Probably.

 

[WaterH]

I wonder if he had handled himself differently after the incident if things would have went better for the self defense case

I don’t know if he should have handed himself in, but he should have shut up when he was in custody. No need to be rude, but just “this is a serious matter, I think I’ll remain silent”

 

[FlatLander]

Perspective from the guilty folks. I just can't wrap my head around it.

Couldn't make it 5 minutes of that. So much wrong in just that time.

There is another short video of the period just prior to Miu running up. Video below should start at the right time.

The prosecution claimed over and over that Miu could have just walked away. That same thing could be said about everyone else. In fact, given the circumstances, it was probably safer for the mob to walk away vs Mui who had to worry about the mob surrounding him.

Shows they interacted with him first, nothing physical. Sticks & stones...Words...
He escalated by charging at them, only contact looked to be him reaching either between or into the tubes into the water.
He then walks away.

I was thinking about this last night. Miu DID walk away toward Madison Coen.

Like you mentioned, she was 3rd party to all this. There was never a reason for her to approach any of them.

The the boys followed him.
Madison was in his path to his group, and ordering him to go the opposite direction of his group.

I'll have two Eggs Zachery, please.

I guess i can see that verdict being the best a jury can convict on. I mean, they were confused enough to need to see the video over and over again... and then again one more time.

Didn't watch most of the yt courtroom shit, it seems that Stabby McMiu didn't need to stab. Brandish a knife, at a something something small distance, yeah ok, maybe.

It's my opinion that Nikolai is/was the passive aggressive type. He seemed closed in on his hunt for said phone. Tolerated a buncha clowns screaming, up to a point. Then they got too close and whomever struck who first didn't matter to him, his space was invaded and it bothered him. A little mini rage inside his passive aggressive self acted out, and here we are with homicide.

He did brandish (their word). This was a point the prosecution drove home when he was on the stand, and I would assume in opening and closing. Mui surrounded, Coen in his face, then puts her hand on him. Then he pulls the knife from his pocket. They showed the frame over and over and asked over and over (until objection). Then he is pushed down, hit, and pushed down again. Knife in hand through out (also driven home that he didn't drop it). Then he went jabbing.

 

[Ksand]

It's a terrible feeling to jail someone who has done nothing wrong and was either a victim of a crime or a witness to a crime.

Why would either of them be jailed? I would do whatever I could to fuck up their case if that happened to me

 

[WashingtonMatt]

What are your thoughts on the verdict

I feel pretty strongly that it was self defense. I likely would have been a holdout on the jury. This jury even stuck him with a battery charge on Madison Coen. So the jury believed that he was holding the knife with intent to use it, yet still chose to punch Madison instead of stabbing her. Just doesn't make sense. He didn't start stabbing until he was taking blows.

The way the video picks up with Miu running toward the tubes makes him seem like a fucking weirdo. That was my initial reaction when I first watched the video. Then once I understood the whole interaction, why he was there (first), it made perfect sense.

The bit from the defense closing linked below should have swayed at least one juror. Any doubt at all, should have been all that's needed. Yes that means guilty folks get to walk sometimes. It's better than an innocent person going away. If they are a real menace to society, they'll reoffend and hopefully be dealt with.

I think he panicked afterwards and started making some really bad choices by ditching the knife, lying, and talking to police without an attorney. Jury understandably didn't like that, and it made them doubt anything that came out of his mouth.

End of the day, I don't think I would have any problem or concern being this guys neighbor.

 

[WaterH]

The problem with this verdict is it’s either self defense or not. If you believe it wasn’t self defense, he should get 2nd degree murder. If you think it’s self defense, he should walk. I think the jury compromised on this reckless shit. I hope the jury gets charged with something they are innocent of and some body compromises and ruins their life.

 

[2big bronco]

Couldn't make it 5 minutes of that. So much wrong in just that time.


Shows they interacted with him first, nothing physical. Sticks & stones...Words...
He escalated by charging at them, only contact looked to be him reaching either between or into the tubes into the water.
He then walks away.


Like you mentioned, she was 3rd party to all this. There was never a reason for her to approach any of them.


I'll have two Eggs Zachery, please.


He did brandish (their word). This was a point the prosecution drove home when he was on the stand, and I would assume in opening and closing. Mui surrounded, Coen in his face, then puts her hand on him. Then he pulls the knife from his pocket. They showed the frame over and over and asked over and over (until objection). Then he is pushed down, hit, and pushed down again. Knife in hand through out (also driven home that he didn't drop it). Then he went jabbing.

Makes it sound like the kids possibly pushed and hit him in self defence. All words till oldie drew the knife.