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Self defense? Or not? - Apple River Stabbing

IBB Jury - On the charges of intentional first degree homicide


  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .
Only watched the OG vid a couple times but, can anyone see the blade go into the flesh of any of the victims? I can't.

Also of note, why DID Miu advance rapidly (rushed) on the tubing kid group in the first place. Did he need to run up like that for some reason?

I haven't seen the last several court videos if thats where those things got cleared up :homer:
 
A witness that refuses to answer is held in contempt. They can then be jailed indefinitely, correct? What typically happens, though? He's sent to jail and still refuses to get on the stand and answer, and just waits the trial out? And then they release him?
DV victims cannot be jailed, just fined. Others, yeah-- pretty much indefinitely. I've never seen it happen, but you can be jailed plus incur a daily fine. It can be extremely punishing, but the idea isn't to torture someone. That's why the law let's their statements come in another way. It's mostly a dog and pony show. A lot of people also tell me over the phone they will never come in to Court. Then when I let them know where they live and work, and men with guns will come escort them to Court, they change their minds and schedule a date to appear.

Avoiding the subpoena is the ticket. If I can't find a witness, that's when I start to sweat, because I don't have many hearsay exceptions available.
 
I like that

Thanks for your posts :beer: super cool insight and I appreciate the time to type it out in irate terms
My pleasure. I've learned a ton of interesting shit from this dark little corner of the internet so its nice to give back in a way. The other forum I'm on had a long thread from the GM of a car dealership-- totally fascinating to go behind the scenes of places.
 
Others, yeah-- pretty much indefinitely. I've never seen it happen, but you can be jailed plus incur a daily fine. It can be extremely punishing, but the idea isn't to torture someone. That's why the law let's their statements come in another way. It's mostly a dog and pony show. A lot of people also tell me over the phone they will never come in to Court. Then when I let them know where they live and work, and men with guns will come escort them to Court, they change their minds and schedule a date to appear.

Surely you see the evil in this? If people don't respect the court enough to show the fuck up then that's the courts problem but like everything government you just threaten people with violence if they don't comply because all you have is a hammer.
 
Wasnt it the prosecution that called for lesser included charges?

I dont see how that would benifit the defense but I admit I know jack shit

It would be rare to ask for lesser charges. Ethically, we MUST dismiss a charge if we don't think the evidence can prove it. A lesser charge comes in two flavors-- lesser included, and lesser related. Lesser included will be a charge that has, for example, 4 of the 5 elements of the main charge. An example would be manslaughter to murder, where murder requires malice aforethought. A lesser related, varying by state, sort of doglegs the elements but is somewhat nearby. Think fighting police vs. resisting arrest.

A defense attorney will ask for many lesser charges, knowing a jury will get confused and hang on everything. Procedurally, a jury must find a charge NOT GUILTY before considering a lesser included, but need not do so for a lesser related. The defense goal is to create confusion and prevent agreement, where the prosecution wants agreement and clarity. The more information, the more choices, the harder it will be for 12 minds to meet. Further, juries are more likely to want to seek compromise and give both parties something. Lesser charges fit the bill here. Obviously this bargaining is disastrous for the ideals of justice, but this is the human component of our system that is simply "the way it goes".

If you charge murder and don't get murder, you don't go high fiving people at the office when the jury comes back on a lesser. But for the voters, it still is counted as a "conviction", so there's that I guess.
 
Only watched the OG vid a couple times but, can anyone see the blade go into the flesh of any of the victims? I can't.

Also of note, why DID Miu advance rapidly (rushed) on the tubing kid group in the first place. Did he need to run up like that for some reason?

I haven't seen the last several court videos if thats where those things got cleared up :homer:
I couldn’t see that it and I looked because I didn’t understand how fast it happened. Sort of a “stick and move” type of stabbing it seems. Probably could slow it down and stabilize and see him holding the knife but I don’t think you can see him actually cutting flesh. I think his movement is in part so fast because he’s stumbling from being drunk and shitty footwear on a river bottom. Had that guy leaning forward so travels too fast vibe.
 
Surely you see the evil in this?
It's a terrible feeling to jail someone who has done nothing wrong and was either a victim of a crime or a witness to a crime. Believe me when I say that. It calls for some deep soul searching. But the system won't work unless witnesses are compelled to Court. This is the whole thing with "dropping charges". Victims don't drop charges, and don't get to.

Luckily recently the laws have changed to allow more evidentiary end-runs, and with video live testimony isn't as important as it once was. But yes, I see the devastating potential of that scenario and do it very, very seldomly. Even with gang members, it still is a last resort. And I'm talking a murder will get dismissed if I dont, last resort.
 
Only watched the OG vid a couple times but, can anyone see the blade go into the flesh of any of the victims? I can't.

Also of note, why DID Miu advance rapidly (rushed) on the tubing kid group in the first place. Did he need to run up like that for some reason?

I haven't seen the last several court videos if thats where those things got cleared up :homer:

There is another short video of the period just prior to Miu running up. Video below should start at the right time.

He was looking for a mobile phone prior to the kids floating up on him. They clearly already started heckling him before he ran up on them. He testified that he thought they had the phone he was looking for. The phone in question was recovered, but I never heard where. He testified that he stumbled into their tubes, after seeing it again, I don't think he did, but I can't say for sure that he didn't. It was the taunting from the boys that got the attention of the third party, and it was the assault by the 3rd party that started the violence. Whether Miu, punched, slapped, or pushed kuntface Coen is irrelevant as I think he was well within his right to create some space at that point.

The prosecution claimed over and over that Miu could have just walked away. That same thing could be said about everyone else. In fact, given the circumstances, it was probably safer for the mob to walk away vs Mui who had to worry about the mob surrounding him.

 
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It's a terrible feeling to jail someone who has done nothing wrong and was either a victim of a crime or a witness to a crime. Believe me when I say that. It calls for some deep soul searching. But the system won't work unless witnesses are compelled to Court. This is the whole thing with "dropping charges". Victims don't drop charges, and don't get to.

Luckily recently the laws have changed to allow more evidentiary end-runs, and with video live testimony isn't as important as it once was. But yes, I see the devastating potential of that scenario and do it very, very seldomly. Even with gang members, it still is a last resort. And I'm talking a murder will get dismissed if I dont, last resort.

Imagine a scenario of this river stabbing trial with zero video evidence. Like it's 1999 and no cameras were immediately available. This would be a FAR different trial and what i think i'm saying is, a potentially MUCH different verdict.

Again, your responses are very complete and address every single thing i can think of asking, and then some.

:beer:
 
There is another short video of the period just prior to Miu running up. Video below should start at the right time.

He was looking for a mobile phone prior to the kids floating up on him. They clearly already started heckling him before he ran up on him. He testified that he thought they had the phone he was looking for. The phone in question was recovered, but I never heard where. He testified that he stumbled into their tubes, after seeing it again, I don't think he did, but I can't say for sure that he didn't. It was the taunting from the boys that got the attention of the third party, and it was the assault by the 3rd party that started the violence. Whether Miu, punched, slapped, or pushed kuntface Coen is irrelevant as I think he was well within his right to create some space at that point.

The prosecution claimed over and over that Miu could have just walked away. That same thing could be said about everyone else. In fact, given the circumstances, it was probably safer for the mob to walk away vs Mui who had to worry about the mob surrounding him.



I should watch more of these courtroom videos and get the real scoop by i'm at work and long distractions are something i cannot do. Thanks, tho!
 
The comment section on this video is overwhelmingly for a guilty verdict.

It would be interesting to see an age breakdown. The comments on Reddit are the same, but I assume most of them are young.

My guess is young and liberal = guilty
Older and conservative = not guilty

Its kinda based on how the world is viewed.
 
Logical thinkers, not guilty. People that base everything on feelings, guilty.
The problem is sheltered upper middle class motherfuckers (probably mostly women) who've never been in a situation like this on the jury.

I guaran-fucking-tee you that every 17yo black kid from Detroit knows that "outnumbered by a bunch of drunk teenagers who have decided they're gonna pick on you" has pretty good potential to escalate into you being seriously harmed.
 
The problem is sheltered upper middle class motherfuckers (probably mostly women) who've never been in a situation like this on the jury.

I guaran-fucking-tee you that every 17yo black kid from Detroit knows that "outnumbered by a bunch of drunk teenagers who have decided they're gonna pick on you" has pretty good potential to escalate into you being seriously harmed.
That and the useless fucks that don’t have a pocketknife in their pocket every day. They assume a knife is a weapon, not a tool because the only tool they use is a keyboard
 
Logical thinkers, not guilty. People that base everything on feelings, guilty.

My initial reaction to the actual stabbing, I agree is self defense. I still have some questions though to how exactly he got himself in that situation.

Similar to Kyle Rittenhouse, we can all agree, shooting those guys for self-defense. But it’s my opinion the exercised some poor judgment, put himself in that situation.

When I was 18, a group of friends I was with got into a fight with another group over a cell phone that belonged to somebody we didn’t even like. Somebody from my group pulled out a knife and stabbed one of the other guys in the leg. Fortunately, the wound was quite minor and nothing became of it. We lost that tussle and did not get that $40 flip phone back. :laughing:

This thread is a good reminder of how stupid that was, and how badly that could have escalated. We do some pretty stupid things at that age. Quite similar to this group to kids.
 
It would be interesting to see an age breakdown. The comments on Reddit are the same, but I assume most of them are young.

My guess is young and liberal = guilty
Older and conservative = not guilty

Its kinda based on how the world is viewed.

If knife guy was trans or black and got pushed down by a bunch of white frat boys wearing maga hats then this thing is over = not guilty.
 
Deliberations day 2. Opened with jury requesting to watch part of the video again from the point Miu walks away from the boys through the stabbings.

I was thinking about this last night. Miu DID walk away toward Madison Coen. The the boys followed him. Madison was in his path to his group, and ordering him to go the opposite direction of his group. In my opinion, the interaction with the boys would have been over had it not been for kuntface Coen injecting herself in the situation.

 
Did Madison testify?
For some reason she didn't have to testify on camera.

I can't even find a transcript of her testimony.

10:05 a.m. - Madison Coen takes the stand​

A witness, Madison Coen, took the stand around 10:05 a.m. The feed and video were silenced at the request of the witness.

Edit: found this recap of part of her testimony.
 
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Logical thinkers, not guilty. People that base everything on feelings, guilty.

This and possibly young=guilty, old=not guilty. A lot of young kids behave this way and recognize themselves. So of course they don’t want to say they did something wrong.

I was irritated by the prosecutor saying the boys did nothing wrong twice during closing. You can argue they didn’t warrant the response, but you can’t say they did nothing wrong.
 
For some reason she didn't have to testify on camera.

I can't even find a transcript of her testimony.

10:05 a.m. - Madison Coen takes the stand​

A witness, Madison Coen, took the stand around 10:05 a.m. The feed and video were silenced at the request of the witness.
weird, that one seems like it may be important
 
Imagine a scenario of this river stabbing trial with zero video evidence. Like it's 1999 and no cameras were immediately available. This would be a FAR different trial and what i think i'm saying is, a potentially MUCH different verdict.

Again, your responses are very complete and address every single thing i can think of asking, and then some.

:beer:

It's funny, too, in that regard. not ha-ha funny, I suppose. The younger DAs are supervised by older DAs. (duh) It's a excruciating difference in world outlook. Those guys grew up in a world (late 80s-90s) where it was like the Salem witch trials. Everyone was guilty of everything, max prison sentences, jury pools full of (let's face it, racist) police loving, crime fearing, silent generation whites. No video. No recordings. No CSI. The juries were on your side, the judges certainly were on your side, and if you said someone was guilty, he was. Drugs= prison. No diversion. No mental health courts. Today, those same supervisors expect those same results from the people they supervise, and just can't grip the face of 2020s america. The opposite end of that is anarchist DAs who let all criminals go, with expected results, but there is a medium to be had.

It's by far the most challenging time in the history of the human existence to convict someone of a crime (maybe 2021-22 was the peak), and it should be that way. There's a lotttttttttttttttttttttttttt of folks who went to prison in "good old days" who, in my opinion, didn't get a fair shake by modern standards. A lot of this is new stuff is a pain in my ass, but if I was ever on the wrong end of a charge, I'd want that protection.

Eyewitnesses are absolute garbage. I avoid that if I can help it. It's 10x easier to play videos, ping phones, etc. All that's left then is the behind the doors cases like domestic violence, or sexual assault, crimes against kids, etc. And those will always be a challenge to prove. From now until forever.

So like in this case, when it's first brought in, it's "staffed" by a panel of homicide attorneys. Like a mini jury. I can see in this case, there would be no way we'd all agree. It gets extremely testy sometimes, I've seen people yell at each other. And these are big decisions, so it should be. I've seen a whole group of attorneys refuse to try a case because they don't believe the evidence proves the charge, but another attorney who sees it differently isn't far away. Cops can want us to charge X, and if we can't it creates a huge political problem behind closed doors.

But knowing what I know about this case, I'd punt and do a half-ass job in front of a grand jury so I could wipe my hands of it. I don't like this case. I'm interested to see the verdict.
 
Good closing by defense.

Edit, didn’t realize prosecutors get a brief rebuttal to closing.

The judge said “brief”, apparently not.

Holly shit, It’s a whole nother closing.

No brief rebuttal for the defense. The prosecutor gets to go first and last. Bonanza, is that right?

Bonanza, could you comment on this? Is it normal?
 
Guilty!

IMG_0402.jpeg
 
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I have no idea what reckless homicide is defined as, first time I've heard that one.


From wikipidia

"
Reckless homicide is a crime in which the perpetrator was aware that their act (or failure to act when there is a legal duty to act) creates significant risk of death or grievous bodily harm in the victim, but ignores the risk and continues to act (or fail to act), and a human death results.[1] It is contrasted with negligent homicide, in which the perpetrator did not have the awareness of the risk, but should have had it.[1]"
 
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