Self defense? Or not? - Apple River Stabbing

[Elwenil]

I carry at least a knife at all times. The only time I put them down is when I am at home or somewhere naked.

Based on just what is in the video, I call self defense. The kids were obviously trying to intimidate the guy. You could see his face when they were sticking the phone in his face and tell that he was getting worried about the situation. When he tried to get sway, they got in his face. Pushing him down and surrounding him was the last straw. With that many idiots against me, I would have done the same. If he were truly out to murder them, he wouldn't have stopped when he got away, he could have easily have killed more of them. In my mind, he defended himself, got an opening and took it to escape.

 

[Animalmother]

I don't blame him for standing his ground on the shifty riverbed that day, but it does suck that he brought a knife to a kiddie bar (sandbar, in this case) and a child was deleted. Isn't it odd that on a hot day in a shallow tubing river, in soaked dad-shorts, he carried a buck with him.

It was said in court, one of the friends to knife man asked him to bring a knife so they would have something to cut twine that they used to hold the rafts together with.

 

[BigBurt]

I don't blame him for standing his ground on the shifty riverbed that day, but it does suck that he brought a knife to a kiddie bar (sandbar, in this case) and a child was deleted. Isn't it odd that on a hot day in a shallow tubing river, in soaked dad-shorts, he carried a buck with him.

Well the short answer is I’ve seen deliverance so I’m not going on a river without defense against squealing like a pig.

I dont think so. While I’m not sure what it’s like to tube on the apple river over here it’s an all day affair to go from the put in point to the pick up spot and you have to bring everything you need to make the day fun. The road is miles away at many points. Some times you have to walk and carry everything. When we go here we bring random tools to do random things. A knife being one of them as it can cut the string we use to bind out rafts together and to tie the coolers up. Once you build the raft of tubes you have to cut the string to take them out. We use the knife to open beer bottles. It opens hot dog plastic and cuts food. What else are you going to cut your fishing lines with if you need to? It also provides defense from wild animals we may encounter. I don’t think he had a big knife just your casual every day carry folding knife. Plus is it really boiling down to him justifying why he is in possession of something he needs no excuse to legally allowed to carry?

 

[DMG]

I don't blame him for standing his ground on the shifty riverbed that day, but it does suck that he brought a knife to a kiddie bar (sandbar, in this case) and a child was deleted. Isn't it odd that on a hot day in a shallow tubing river, in soaked dad-shorts, he carried a buck with him.

I have carried a pocketknife since i was given an Imperial Barlow at 6 years old and absolutely carry a knife rafting, tubing, kayaking, etc. There are river knives made specifically for that purpose.

 

[JK13]

One of the clearest portions of the video where he gets pushed down into the water on his ass, then almost immediately someone sucker punched (kicked?) him in the face, is telling.

Yup, some of the people who got shanked didn’t need to in hindsight, but wouldn’t have if they weren’t being little shits and getting all mob-wild. FA&FO that choices have consequences

 

[trampas]

It was said in court, one of the friends to knife man asked him to bring a knife so they would have something to cut twine that they used to hold the rafts together with.

I didn't see that vid, thank you.

For the people on the knife deal, having rafted whitewater my entire life i always carry a throwbag with everything required on a day trip. Knife stays in it until it's needed. But... i haven't tubed a river (the Willamette) since i was a teen. There were far less drunks in that time and age, no matter how young or old.

 

[DMG]

Snorkeling, kayaking, etc i have one of these clipped to the waistband of my swimsuit.

 

[WashingtonMatt]

I watched this lady's testimony. She had not seen the video prior to her testimony. So much of her testimony is in direct conflict with the video. I don't think she's lying either, just wrong. She's clearly disturbed by the events that day. Goes to show how unreliable eyewitness testimony can be.

 

[trampas]

I watched this lady's testimony. She had not seen the video prior to her testimony. So much of her testimony is in direct conflict with the video. I don't think she's lying either, just wrong. She's clearly disturbed by the events that day. Goes to show how unreliable eyewitness testimony can be.

Assuming that's another 45+ minute video (that i'm not going to watch... zzz) what are the bullet points of her statements if you've seen it.

And from which group was she?

 

[WashingtonMatt]

Assuming that's another 45+ minute video (that i'm not going to watch... zzz) what are the bullet points of her statements if you've seen it.

And from which group was she?

She's wrong about a lot. I have no desire to rewatch it for you, but here are a couple timestamps to check out.

13:45


16:30

 

[det107]

Snorkeling, kayaking, etc i have one of these clipped to the waistband of my swimsuit.

 

[WashingtonMatt]

Watching this one now. This guys testimony is fucked. WTF.

13:40


16:30

 

[Lee]

Really..?
Big business here and by the PA border-

Go float the Elk in southwest Missouri on a holiday weekend. Inundated with the absolute worst human garbage, drunk, stoned, no inhibitions or fear. They bring their crotch fruit and turn them loose unsupervised to do whatever the hell they want, usually also drunk and or high.

Canoeing the Elk Labor Day weekend ~2009. If my paddle could have reached I would have split a guy's head open.

 

[BigBurt]

I didn't see that vid, thank you.

For the people on the knife deal, having rafted whitewater my entire life i always carry a throwbag with everything required on a day trip. Knife stays in it until it's needed. But... i haven't tubed a river (the Willamette) since i was a teen. There were far less drunks in that time and age, no matter how young or old.

Tubing is all the kooks, gapers, Joeys, flatlanders or whatever they’re called these days. They’re there to drink first and ride the river second and their behavior shows it.

 

[DMG]

I dont get it

 

[BigBurt]

Watching this one now. This guys testimony is fucked. WTF.

13:40


16:30

Lol…. “He came out of the bushes while fully clothed wearing a coat in summer! But I don’t remember because it was a long time ago!” They told us our generations were getting stupider and here we are.

I bet he can’t swim either.

 

[Yota Up]

You said he was taking pictures of the girls?
Yes.
You saw that?
Yes.
You're telling this jury you saw him with a camera taking pictures?
No.

Good grief, I feel so bad for the lawyer to have to deal with such a low IQ witness.
Every witness is being chewed up by the defense. This guy's case is looking better and better by the minute.

I hope he succeeds and gets a complete not guilty on any charges. No reduced charge, nothing. Just walks away free and clear.

 

[trampas]

She's wrong about a lot. I have no desire to rewatch it for you, but here are a couple timestamps to check out.

13:45


16:30

Thanks, she's an (in)credible witness for sure. Appreciate the time stamp vids, these witnesses are something!

 

[trampas]

Tubing is all the kooks, gapers, Joeys, flatlanders or whatever they’re called these days. They’re there to drink first and ride the river second and their behavior shows it.

I believe it. Back in the day they were coined river rats for those reasons, even though my one and only time spent 'tubing' as a youth was an all-sober group and i saw zero drunks on the river.

 

[DMG]

Thanks, she's an (in)credible witness for sure. Appreciate the time stamp vids, these witnesses are something!

Reminds me of the hamplanet testifying in the Zimmerman trial.

 

[Yota Up]

Reminds me of the hamplanet testifying in the Zimmerman trial.

"Diamond Eugene". Oh yeah, what a treat that was.
The letter she sent to little Obama's parents was put in front of her and she could not read it. Because it was in cursive. She had her friend write the letter in cursive on her behalf. What a bizarre character with a typical ghetto name.

 

[det107]

I don't get it

Makes for a handy rubber tourniquet in case of a snakebite or use them as galoshes for your dainty feet-

 

[DMG]

Makes for a handy rubber tourniquet in case of a snakebite or use them as galoshes for your dainty feet-

Gayyyyyyyy

 

[det107]

Gayyyyyyyy

Then make balloon poodles to impress the ladies.

I think carrying a knife is the "wrong kind of protection"-

 

[Bonanza]

I watched this lady's testimony. She had not seen the video prior to her testimony. So much of her testimony is in direct conflict with the video. I don't think she's lying either, just wrong. She's clearly disturbed by the events that day. Goes to show how unreliable eyewitness testimony can be.

In extreme/stressful situations, it's hard for most people to recall the sky being blue. Without a video, cases like these are nightmares to prove. 10 people seeing the exact same thing usually means 10 completely different recollections. Obviously that's easy for a defense attorney to use, and add to that all the items of evidence prosecutors aren't allowed to bring in, and you have a recipe for complete confusion for a jury. The trick here is to try and get focus on the important stuff-- describe the knife. describe the wound. What color was the water? (red/red/red/red/red/etc) vs. the defense attorney- what color were his swim trunks? (red/black/green/rainbow/I don't recall/etc).

I watched that linked video, thanks WashingtonMatt and still can't tell wtf is going on. The guy looks a bit drunk, so he'll be able to play that card. The teenagers are acting like teenagers, and from that video, it looks like they are in the wrong. But I can't tell what started the whole thing. 7 on 1, add a shove and a punch, and I think there's a reasonable claim of SD both perfect or imperfect. Intoxication can negate intent somewhat, although in CA involuntary intoxication isn't a free ticket out. These victims don't appear to be the most sympathetic, either.

I wouldn't want this case. I'll qualify that on not knowing the full story here. Strategically, I'd only call a few of the sober witnesses and the direct victims. There's just so much damage control here. Truly a worst case scenario as a criminal case, especially with no body. What I mean by that is juries don't really care much unless there's a dead guy. They're much more likely to just shrug it off and hang/acquit if it's confusing and no one's dead. Jury pool in Wisconsin to boot, I think this guy walks. That might be different if he's being tried in a big city.

Regarding page 2 questions re: civil liability, you could go that route, but why? This guy's pockets aren't going to be very deep and the juice won't be worth the squeeze. I wouldn't take the case as a civil plaintiff's lawyer, cause it'll cost me more to file a suit than I'd win.

 

[WashingtonMatt]

In extreme/stressful situations, it's hard for most people to recall the sky being blue. Without a video, cases like these are nightmares to prove. 10 people seeing the exact same thing usually means 10 completely different recollections. Obviously that's easy for a defense attorney to use, and add to that all the items of evidence prosecutors aren't allowed to bring in, and you have a recipe for complete confusion for a jury. The trick here is to try and get focus on the important stuff-- describe the knife. describe the wound. What color was the water? (red/red/red/red/red/etc) vs. the defense attorney- what color were his swim trunks? (red/black/green/rainbow/I don't recall/etc).

I watched that linked video, thanks WashingtonMatt and still can't tell wtf is going on. The guy looks a bit drunk, so he'll be able to play that card. The teenagers are acting like teenagers, and from that video, it looks like they are in the wrong. But I can't tell what started the whole thing. 7 on 1, add a shove and a punch, and I think there's a reasonable claim of SD both perfect or imperfect. Intoxication can negate intent somewhat, although in CA involuntary intoxication isn't a free ticket out. These victims don't appear to be the most sympathetic, either.

I wouldn't want this case. I'll qualify that on not knowing the full story here. Strategically, I'd only call a few of the sober witnesses and the direct victims. There's just so much damage control here. Truly a worst case scenario as a criminal case, especially with no body. What I mean by that is juries don't really care much unless there's a dead guy. They're much more likely to just shrug it off and hang/acquit if it's confusing and no one's dead. Jury pool in Wisconsin to boot, I think this guy walks. That might be different if he's being tried in a big city.

Regarding page 2 questions re: civil liability, you could go that route, but why? This guy's pockets aren't going to be very deep and the juice won't be worth the squeeze. I wouldn't take the case as a civil plaintiff's lawyer, cause it'll cost me more to file a suit than I'd win.

Point of clarification, there is one dead.

My understanding thus far is someone in Mui's group lost a phone. He told them to hold up and he would go back to look for it.

At this point the altercation with the kids started. I read one comment that suggested one of the kids in the group was holding up a phone say saying something. This is unconfirmed, but may suggest why the video picks up with him running towards the tubes. Early on, you see him with a snorkel, which gets batted out of his hand and tossed downriver. Just escalates from there.

Afterwards Mui walks off and ditches the knife, and plays dumb about being involved. I believe there is question on who's knife it was. I think he initially claimed the knife wasn't his.

Day 6 is live now. I think it's expected that Mui will testify.

 

[Bonanza]

Point of clarification, there is one dead.

My understanding thus far is someone in Mui's group lost a phone. He told them to hold up and he would go back to look for it.

At this point the altercation with the kids started. I read one comment that suggested one of the kids in the group was holding up a phone say saying something. This is unconfirmed, but may suggest why the video picks up with him running towards the tubes. Early on, you see him with a snorkel, which gets batted out of his hand and tossed downriver. Just escalates from there.

Afterwards Mui walks off and ditches the knife, and plays dumb about being involved. I believe there is question on who's knife it was. I think he initially claimed the knife wasn't his.

Day 6 is live now. I think it's expected that Mui will testify.

Oh, that changes things. Hm. Thanks for the info!

 

[DMG]

Then make balloon poodles to impress the ladies.

I think carrying a knife is the "wrong kind of protection"-

A knife is a tool. It can be used as a weapon, same as a hammer or screwdriver or a river rock for that matter. But i dont carry it for protection. I use it multiple times a day in my shop/home/woods/water

 

[WaterH]

Oh, that changes things. Hm. Thanks for the info!

I’m curious about what you think of the (sober) female witness above a few posts. The way she answers makes her appear extremely credible. She makes short positive answers with no ambiguity. She doesn’t say things like “as best I recollect” or “I’m pretty sure”. If there was no video, I would totally believe her. But her contradictions to the video give me a complete opposite opinion of her. I would completely disregard everything she says. Do you think she was good for the prosecution?

 

[trampas]

...add to that all the items of evidence prosecutors aren't allowed to bring in...

Bonanza, excellent summation of the goings on in this case. Makes it really clear how much doubt/confusion a jury will see in this mucked up case.

Thank god there's a person who said "oh yeah, i'm recording this whole thing right here!" and he didn't stop holding his phone in the incident, throughout.

Question tho, who/what/why determines what prosecutors are not allowed to bring into the courtroom... assuming said evidence is indeed factual?