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Self defense? Or not? - Apple River Stabbing

IBB Jury - On the charges of intentional first degree homicide

  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .
CJF said:
He can't be "called to". The defense chooses whether to have the defendant testify. They may or may not in high profile cases, because as soon as you do you're open to cross-examination. Rittenhouse is an example of a defendant who chose to testify, and it worked for him. OJ is an example of a defendant who chose not to testify, that too turned out to be a good decision.
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Thx. F if i know how courts work.
 
trampas said:
I caught that blip, i think he's not an American born citizen. He should definitely not take the stand if called to. He'll ruin himself if he does.
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Who is Nicolae Miu?​

According to the defense's opening statements, Miu was born in Romania. When he was a teenager — about 15 or 16 — he immigrated to the United States because his father wanted his family to have a better life. They were taken in as political refugees and accepted by a church in Minnesota.


Defense attorney Aaron Nelson highlighted Miu's language proficiency; he grew up speaking Romanian but also learned Russian. By the time he moved to the United States, Miu also knew French and Latin. Then he picked up his fifth language: English.
 
Apple river is a pretty well known party spot for tubing. There's big campgrounds that have live music or DJ's and it gets pretty wild. I haven't been there, but know a few people that go.
 
This is barely news. This is what happens when you get groups of drunks. River, bar, or festival, you get that many people, and add alcohol ...

It's why I don't like crowds, and especially crowds that are there with the main purpose is, drinking in excess.

I've witnessed 2 stabbings, (one in an apartment, and one in a parking lot) and both were drunk people.
 
grumpy356 said:
This is barely news. This is what happens when you get groups of drunks. River, bar, or festival, you get that many people, and add alcohol ...

It's why I don't like crowds, and especially crowds that are there with the main purpose is, drinking in excess.

I've witnessed 2 stabbings, (one in an apartment, and one in a parking lot) and both were drunk people.
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It usually is drunks but in HS I saw a sober friend get fed up with a bully and start slicing. We found a big piece of thumb stuck to his car later. :laughing::barf:
 
I watched the first vid. (Without sound) Not sure how I feel about it. Kind of seems like self defense to me. Was the guy drunk also? Are they charging any of the kids with something also?

Ive always heard if someone dies in the commission of a crime, you can be charged. (Even if you had nothing directly to do with it.) Those kids set this in motion by ganging up on him.
 
Kids got really scared and started crying after the knife came out which I won’t say is funny but they went from aggressors to backed off real quick. They didn’t even check on the yellow guy as his blood filled the river or call 911, but sure enough though Mr T turns the camera around to show his reaction. Wonder how long it took first responders to get there
 
KenV said:
Seems like a lot of detail is missing regarding why the guy approached the kids. Grabbing their tubes doesn't make sense either.
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Even if he doesn't take the stand, his lawyer will have to offer a reason for why he approached them and engaged with them to begin with.
You can't start shit and then claim self defense.

Zimmerman did not start shit. He simply followed to keep eyes on and got surprised by a punch when he took a corner. Never said a word or put a hand on little Obama or engaged with him in any way.
 
That was painful to watch, fuck young assholes who think they’re invincible. A bunch of punk ass kids all shouting at the same time was annoying AF. Not saying they should or shouldn’t have been stabbed but zero fucks given here.

Cool starry bra time:
I was down by the river with my kids last summer and some dumbass was blatantly parked on the sidewalk. A bit later as we were leaving there was a bunch of college age kids loading up their tubes and shit in the tahoe and I politely asked if they could not park on the sidewalk cause its for walking :laughing: they were like “we didn’t even know” and playing dumb while cussing me out in front of my 2 young boys so I was like whatever and just left.

Well as they were pulling out, they started mouthing off again and flipping me off and I just snapped and sprinted after them and punched the back door. They stop, hop out and I get ready to start swinging then they start trying to disengage and talk me down before half ass apologizing…so yeah, fuck tubers :flipoff2:
 
JK13 said:
That was painful to watch, fuck young assholes who think they’re invincible. A bunch of punk ass kids all shouting at the same time was annoying AF. Not saying they should or shouldn’t have been stabbed but zero fucks given here.

Cool starry bra time:
I was down by the river with my kids last summer and some dumbass was blatantly parked on the sidewalk. A bit later as we were leaving there was a bunch of college age kids loading up their tubes and shit in the tahoe and I politely asked if they could not park on the sidewalk cause its for walking :laughing: they were like “we didn’t even know” and playing dumb while cussing me out in front of my 2 young boys so I was like whatever and just left.

Well as they were pulling out, they started mouthing off again and flipping me off and I just snapped and sprinted after them and punched the back door. They stop, hop out and I get ready to start swinging then they start trying to disengage and talk me down before half ass apologizing…so yeah, fuck tubers :flipoff2:
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Maybe you should grow up a little and prioritize your kids over your ego?
 
BigBurt said:
Kids got really scared and started crying after the knife came out which I won’t say is funny but they went from aggressors to backed off real quick. They didn’t even check on the yellow guy as his blood filled the river or call 911, but sure enough though Mr T turns the camera around to show his reaction. Wonder how long it took first responders to get there
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It goes from “I’m a fucking badass” to “is this even real?” in a hurry. Oh no, consequences.
 
trampas said:
WaterH, watch it with sound.
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Just watched it with sound. Didn’t make any more sense. I still think self defense. I did not see the guy trying to escalate. The kids were trying to escalate right up to the point of getting hurt. I also thought the video guy was more interested in the video than his friend.
 
WashingtonMatt said:
I’m thinking he has a pretty strong self defense case against anyone that actually assaulted him. Probably guilty on the others.
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I think if he’s down and swinging around a knife, he should not be charged with hitting someone accidentally. I think he feels he’s being attacked from all sides. I don’t really think there are innocent bystanders there.

CJF said:
He can't be "called to". The defense chooses whether to have the defendant testify. They may or may not in high profile cases, because as soon as you do you're open to cross-examination. Rittenhouse is an example of a defendant who chose to testify, and it worked for him. OJ is an example of a defendant who chose not to testify, that too turned out to be a good decision.
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So if he gets acquitted, can they call him as a witness to prosecute the kids? Once he’s no longer in danger of self incrimination.
 
WaterH said:
I think if he’s down and swinging around a knife, he should not be charged with hitting someone accidentally. I think he feels he’s being attacked from all sides. I don’t really think there are innocent bystanders there.



So if he gets acquitted, can they call him as a witness to prosecute the kids? Once he’s no longer in danger of self incrimination.
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You're potentially always in danger of self incrimination in a case like this. This is when we might sometimes offer immunity, of which there are varying types: (won't use your statements against you, or we won't prosecute you for X crime). Under those circs, I can't use someone's statements against them, unless they are dishonest. There's a bunch of backdoors and workarounds, and it's an annoying process.

Especially in severed gang member cases (trying people one at a time vs. as co-defendants), where even though a dude is a defendant, he isn't a defendant in a case against another person. So there, I'd call him, he pleads the 5th, we take a big break, I get all the paperwork for immunity, judge grants it, other gang member still tells me to fuck off, I ask judge to order him to answer, he still doesn't, and then I introduce a statement of witness through a hearsay exception once all that shit unfolds.

Regarding the initial post, it's flagged as NSFW and I'm at W. Can someone give me a cliffs of the events per the video?

Basic rules are most crimes of violence, I need to prove the defendant didn't act in self defense. Self defense can't be provoked/contrived, and you can't use more force than reasonably necessary. Self defense fades when combat/threat fades. There's self defense of others (that guy's getting killed!), mistaken self defense (I thought he had a gun!), mistaken self defense of others, defense of property, dogs, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Long story long, DISproving self defense is pretty damn tough. Of the cases I've lost, it's getting hung up on this issue. Some states allow for SD as a mere defense, but here I have to disprove it altogether. So if you have even a skimpy claim of it, you can hammer that home and rest on the state not disproving self defense. This is also why prosecuting cops is so challenging. Self Defense is a tough little bitch.
 
WaterH said:
I think if he’s down and swinging around a knife, he should not be charged with hitting someone accidentally. I think he feels he’s being attacked from all sides. I don’t really think there are innocent bystanders there.



So if he gets acquitted, can they call him as a witness to prosecute the kids? Once he’s no longer in danger of self incrimination.
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Thing is there were three parties involved. The 3rd party guys supposedly were going to try to break it up. The stabbing was done before anyone realized there was a knife. The people getting stabbed thought they got punched.

Just last fall I broke up three separate fights all at the same time at a high school football game. It would have really sucked to spring a leak for trying to do the right thing.
 
Bonanza said:
You're potentially always in danger of self incrimination in a case like this. This is when we might sometimes offer immunity, of which there are varying types: (won't use your statements against you, or we won't prosecute you for X crime). Under those circs, I can't use someone's statements against them, unless they are dishonest. There's a bunch of backdoors and workarounds, and it's an annoying process.

Especially in severed gang member cases (trying people one at a time vs. as co-defendants), where even though a dude is a defendant, he isn't a defendant in a case against another person. So there, I'd call him, he pleads the 5th, we take a big break, I get all the paperwork for immunity, judge grants it, other gang member still tells me to fuck off, I ask judge to order him to answer, he still doesn't, and then I introduce a statement of witness through a hearsay exception once all that shit unfolds.

Regarding the initial post, it's flagged as NSFW and I'm at W. Can someone give me a cliffs of the events per the video?

Basic rules are most crimes of violence, I need to prove the defendant didn't act in self defense. Self defense can't be provoked/contrived, and you can't use more force than reasonably necessary. Self defense fades when combat/threat fades. There's self defense of others (that guy's getting killed!), mistaken self defense (I thought he had a gun!), mistaken self defense of others, defense of property, dogs, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Long story long, DISproving self defense is pretty damn tough. Of the cases I've lost, it's getting hung up on this issue. Some states allow for SD as a mere defense, but here I have to disprove it altogether. So if you have even a skimpy claim of it, you can hammer that home and rest on the state not disproving self defense. This is also why prosecuting cops is so challenging. Self Defense is a tough little bitch.
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Maybe this one.

Edit: this one has parts cut out.

 
Yota Up said:
Maybe you should grow up a little and prioritize your kids over your ego?
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Oh 100%, not my proudest moment but a good teaching lesson all around for my oldest boy. Dad isn’t perfect, admitting what he’s done was wrong, don’t be a little shit to strangers, FAFO etc…My ex had just divorced me and I was in my first homeless stage so not in the best place. But I didn’t get all Slavy-Stabby so :flipoff2:
WaterH said:
Just watched it with sound. Didn’t make any more sense.
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Fuckin Yoots hootin’ and hollerin’, so annoying lol

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Some back and forth from Arfcom
 
I’m not going to watch it again, but does he ever go after someone and stab them or did everyone that got stabbed go in on their own? This reminds me of those videos where the kids beat up some guy in a park. One kid runs in from one side and quickly gets out while another goes in. If you go in and find out he has a knife this time, tough shit. I hope he gets off or at the very least everybody gets charged. It really pissed me off when Kyle got charged and his attackers didn’t.
 
If he does get out of criminal charges or whatever would they/will it be worth it to still go after him civilly? If he’s found innocent on self defense grounds what doors here stay open?
 
WaterH said:
I’m not going to watch it again, but does he ever go after someone and stab them or did everyone that got stabbed go in on their own? This reminds me of those videos where the kids beat up some guy in a park. One kid runs in from one side and quickly gets out while another goes in. If you go in and find out he has a knife this time, tough shit. I hope he gets off or at the very least everybody gets charged. It really pissed me off when Kyle got charged and his attackers didn’t.
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I couldn’t definitively tell, some shit happened off camera as well. I only watched it twice but he seems to at a point start going after anyone within reach and gets a one or two chicks which I think was too far, one of the guys might have been trying to break it up and just happened to be too close…I don’t care enough to study the video, but it’s an interesting case to casually follow for the commentary.
 
If you’re about to get rat packed in the water its fight for your life time. I don’t know if knife guy started it,it certainly looked like the kids escalated it, but knife guy finished it. The sound of of those drunk kids taunting is nearly unbearable to hear.
 
JK13 said:
Oh 100%, not my proudest moment but a good teaching lesson all around for my oldest boy. Dad isn’t perfect, admitting what he’s done was wrong, don’t be a little shit to strangers, FAFO etc…My ex had just divorced me and I was in my first homeless stage so not in the best place. But I didn’t get all Slavy-Stabby so :flipoff2:
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Good to hear it was a teaching moment.

During Covid BS, I had some mask idiot tell me to put on a mask in Tahoe.
Obviously me refusing meant he would certainly die because he got all huffy and puffy with me.
Had it been 20 years back I would have dropped him like a bag of meat.
But, grown up with assets, so...

Told my kids, I had 2 options: Walk away or get some. Walk away and life stays the same.
If I chose to get some, it would end in 2 ways:
1) I win and he sues me and I possibly get arrested.
2) I lose and get hurt.
Lose/lose.

Always told them to ask themselves "Is my life better than his? Do I have more to lose than he does?"
 
BigBurt said:
If he does get out of criminal charges or whatever would they/will it be worth it to still go after him civilly? If he’s found innocent on self defense grounds what doors here stay open?
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Bonanza will have the final say on this, but I think they can go after you with a lower standard to be met before the court.
Civil cases require less to succeed. Ex: OJ won his criminal but lost the civil.
I do know that if you get convicted criminally, then the following civil suit is a slam dunk. But no, it does not appear to work in reverse, in other words that if you win the criminal it automatically removes the civil.
 
JK13 said:
I couldn’t definitively tell, some shit happened off camera as well. I only watched it twice but he seems to at a point start going after anyone within reach and gets a one or two chicks which I think was too far, one of the guys might have been trying to break it up and just happened to be too close…I don’t care enough to study the video, but it’s an interesting case to casually follow for the commentary.
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One of the clearest portions of the video where he gets pushed down into the water on his ass, then almost immediately someone sucker punched (kicked?) him in the face, is telling.

Didn't someone mention on page 1 that he was looking for his phone, or something he thought he lost in the river, and that's why he came toward their tube gathering in the first place?

With his multi-lingual non-American background and the look on his face that seems to display "i don't know wtf all these kids are screaming about" - and if my speclations are mostly correct... i think if i were in that situation i'd be pissed AF if those river rats shoved me down and smacked me in the face while i wasn't being aggressive in any sense, assaulting, or whatever.

I don't blame him for standing his ground on the shifty riverbed that day, but it does suck that he brought a knife to a kiddie bar (sandbar, in this case) and a child was deleted. Isn't it odd that on a hot day in a shallow tubing river, in soaked dad-shorts, he carried a buck with him.
 
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