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New tech for old axles? (kingpin)

Sterlingfire said:
I dove down this rabbit hole before just making the switch to 05+ sd.... the best route i could find is to fabricate your own custom knuckles with stub shafts in mind, or buy the Reid setup... both not cheap, one maybe less expensive, but pretty damn time consuming jigging that up to work right, and have decent geometry. Good luck my man. Maybe a cad man can draw something up???
Click to expand...

You mean like this? :homer:

ParadisePWoffrd said:
Here is the updated image of the CAD. The 5 bolt splindle pattern of the ford interferes with the UB pattern slightly. The larger holes are there to allow socket clearance for tightening bolts, since the UB and Knuckle are both threaded, although one could possibly be drilled out and have the adapter threaded.



You can see the thicknesses here. Orange is 99-04 and Blue 05+, both with older Ford stubs.



When drawing these the dimensions to factor are the mating flanges and their recess and spacing, along with where the stub interacts with the hub. The 05+ spacer is so long because the UB is shorter from rear to spline section. It might be possible to use a 99-04 stub with the 05+ UB and shave ~2" off the thickness.

To your other statement, I use Onshape. It is all online, so doesnt need a ton of computing power. It is free, is similar to Solidworks, and has a ton of tutorials. Downside, the free version makes all your drawings public. You can pay and keep everything private. For me, I just give things odd names, and use it for hobby/fun purposes, so it doesnt really matter.
Click to expand...
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Why don't ried and solid just drill both spindle patterns into their knuckles then?
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If you clock the brake caliper brackets "right" on both, the hole patterns end up binocular in one or two places. Non-OEM-D60 calipers/brackets and it's usually not an issue, but I'm sure they wanted to be able to accomodate stock-replacement and aftermarket applications.
The spindle bore diameter is the same on Ford/GM/Dodge KP60 (I have redrilled Ford spindles on Chevy knuckles on my axles right now).
Unit bearing has a much deeper "stick-in" than KP spindles, so it will interfere with the steering joint unless it's spaced outward. Might be possible to machine the stub to fit, but I think you'd end up taking too much off and lose strength by the time it actually fit together.
 
Sterlingfire said:
Yes, i saw that, but it doesn't work..
The bolt holes interfere with each other...
I don't see how that's something you're OK with:homer:
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If I am interpreting the picture right, it looks to mean like you would bolt the adapter to the unit bearing first using the socket pass thru hole, then using a wrench attach it to the knuckle and use a washer.
 
Sterlingfire said:
Yes, i saw that, but it doesn't work..
The bolt holes interfere with each other...
I don't see how that's something you're OK with:homer:
Click to expand...

I'm running gm 6 stud knuckles, I'm pretty sure you could clock them to not interfere.

ScottRS said:
If you clock the brake caliper brackets "right" on both, the hole patterns end up binocular in one or two places. Non-OEM-D60 calipers/brackets and it's usually not an issue, but I'm sure they wanted to be able to accomodate stock-replacement and aftermarket applications.
The spindle bore diameter is the same on Ford/GM/Dodge KP60 (I have redrilled Ford spindles on Chevy knuckles on my axles right now).
Unit bearing has a much deeper "stick-in" than KP spindles, so it will interfere with the steering joint unless it's spaced outward. Might be possible to machine the stub to fit, but I think you'd end up taking too much off and lose strength by the time it actually fit together.
Click to expand...

Caliper bracket alignment is a good point. It would also be nice if they made knuckles with cast in arms higher up. Negating the need for expensive steering arms and studs. But again, they are trying to make it fit for everyone.

I think spacing it out in order to use the stock 99-04 stub shafts would be the best way to get it done. I'm looking at a ton of different pics of the 95-97 BJ live spindle knuckles, and the 99-04 BJ ub knuckles. The ub mounting face definitely protrudes more, but I'm not seeing 2.5" maybe I'm missing something?
 
YotaAtieToo said:
I'm running gm 6 stud knuckles, I'm pretty sure you could clock them to not interfere.



Caliper bracket alignment is a good point. It would also be nice if they made knuckles with cast in arms higher up. Negating the need for expensive steering arms and studs. But again, they are trying to make it fit for everyone.

I think spacing it out in order to use the stock 99-04 stub shafts would be the best way to get it done. I'm looking at a ton of different pics of the 95-97 BJ live spindle knuckles, and the 99-04 BJ ub knuckles. The ub mounting face definitely protrudes more, but I'm not seeing 2.5" maybe I'm missing something?
Click to expand...

Alright, so i didn't take that into consideration... my bad
 
YotaAtieToo said:
I think spacing it out in order to use the stock 99-04 stub shafts would be the best way to get it done. I'm looking at a ton of different pics of the 95-97 BJ live spindle knuckles, and the 99-04 BJ ub knuckles. The ub mounting face definitely protrudes more, but I'm not seeing 2.5" maybe I'm missing something?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's closer to 1" difference of "stick-in" between the KP spindles and the Ford UB I have from the back face. I don't know how much difference there is in the distance between that face and joint centerline from the UB stub to the KP stub, I don't have a UB stub.

The other "gotcha" to the UB in a non-UB knuckle is the length of the pilot register on the back vs the overall length and diameter of the "stick-in". I don't see that working out for spacing it out of a knuckle with the same register size but needing an inch of spacer to put the joint where it belongs. If the knuckle register was bigger, or the spacer bigger, I could see it working out, but a bigger spacer screws the joint lineup, and a bigger knuckle register means custom machined knuckles.

I guess I'd either make the wheel bearing assembly into a unit bearing and use a slip over rotor, or use the BJ/UB knuckle assembly as it is. Can't clear the HP center section, stick the knuckles you want on an e250/350 van 60 LP center.
 
Man, I have missed alot in the last few days....

Scott is pretty much on point... The UB sticks into the knuckle deeper than the KP spindle. I believe that you could use a smaller spacer than i have drawn, to put the 99-04 UB in a KP knuckle, using the 99-04 stub. The big question then would be brakes.

The KP spindle works with the dodge knuckle and counter, and i guess that is an option, but the SD UB are much better. I dont have anything but an assembled KP knuckle here, but I have seen 4 different Ford knuckle designs over the years; KP & BJ thru 99, 99-04 SD, and 05+ SD. The KP & early BJ share the same dimensions other than the top of the knuckle.

If the interference comment was on my drawing, the overlapping holes were mostly so you can get a socket in to secure the bolts. The knuckle and UB are threaded, so my plan was to bolt the UB to adapter first, and use studs and nuts in the knuckle. The washer under the nut would handle any overlap. You could easily make a small spacer to fit also, if it was a concern.
 
ParadisePWoffrd said:
If the interference comment was on my drawing, the overlapping holes were mostly so you can get a socket in to secure the bolts. The knuckle and UB are threaded, so my plan was to bolt the UB to adapter first, and use studs and nuts in the knuckle. The washer under the nut would handle any overlap. You could easily make a small spacer to fit also, if it was a concern.
Click to expand...

Just a point of note, the KP knuckles are not threaded, they're through-drilled and use a clipped-head knurled stud pressed in from the backside. Ford knuckles are drilled at 7/16, Chevy/Dodge at 1/2", if you want threads in either, you'll have to tap to the next size up (which will be bigger than your spindle holes, but there's room), helicoil them, or drill a second pattern entirely.
 
ScottRS said:
Just a point of note, the KP knuckles are not threaded, they're through-drilled and use a clipped-head knurled stud pressed in from the backside. Ford knuckles are drilled at 7/16, Chevy/Dodge at 1/2", if you want threads in either, you'll have to tap to the next size up (which will be bigger than your spindle holes, but there's room), helicoil them, or drill a second pattern entirely.
Click to expand...

That's right, it's been a while since Ive had mine apart. I just remembered that you couldnt just put a bolt in from the back, like a UB knuckle, and it would need to use a stud or custom bolt.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Fwiw my solids are threaded, and I'm pretty sure rieds are also.
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In the spindle stud holes? Interesting, mine aren't. But as 4x parts go, mine are... ancient... they say Dedenbear on them. :laughing: The stock ones were not threaded there, just through holes.
 
ScottRS said:
In the spindle stud holes? Interesting, mine aren't. But as 4x parts go, mine are... ancient... they say Dedenbear on them. :laughing: The stock ones were not threaded there, just through holes.
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My solids are 100% sure, I have it apart right now.

Google images make the rieds look like what you're saying.
 
unit bearing's stub shaft seem to have more distance between back of the yoke to u-joint centerline compared to 88-98 stub shaft. eyeballing to be around a solid 1" difference.
88-98 stub shaft
10007762_Top__ra_p.jpg

99-04 stub shaft
2002692_Top__ra_p.jpg


94-99 Dodge D60 stub shaft
83500184.jpg

FWIW
 
Was doing some maintenance to the rig and decided to test fit the 3d printed pieces, since I had it apart.

I didnt have the correct bolts/studs so ignore that part, but the dimensions seem to match up well. The slug and cap still need work to finish them out, but honestly that is the part most places would already know.

Would still need to figure out the brakes, but there should be plenty of room to adapt a bracket to work.

20201018_172041-jpg.3110650


20201018_171836-jpg.3110649


20201018_171803-jpg.3110651
 
Has anyone looked into making a 05+ UB adapter (as short as possible) and then running a custom stub that splines directly into the UB........AKA No drive slug? I think Overson makes a kit where the stub splines directly into the hub with a 2" shaft.

Edit: yes I've read this whole thread. I know the UB sticks into the knuckle farther. that could be accounted for in the adapter.
 
Blase said:
Has anyone looked into making a 05+ UB adapter (as short as possible) and then running a custom stub that splines directly into the UB........AKA No drive slug? I think Overson makes a kit where the stub splines directly into the hub with a 2" shaft.

Edit: yes I've read this whole thread. I know the UB sticks into the knuckle farther. that could be accounted for in the adapter.
Click to expand...

You mean like have overson or RCV make a long version of those shafts?
 
What i'm suggesting is if the adapter was made to bolt a 05+ unit bearing on a king pin axle.....You could possibly have a stub shaft made that splines directly into the 05+ unit bearing like Overson does. Pictures for reference!

photo28930.jpg


photo28931.jpg
 
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Blase said:
What i'm suggesting is if the adapter was made to bolt a 05+ unit bearing on a king pin axle.....You could possibly have a stub shaft made that splines directly into the 05+ unit bearing like Overson does. Pictures for reference!
Click to expand...

The OD of the rear of the 05+ bearing is bigger than the opening in the knuckle, so the adapter would need to support a bearing/bushing for the stub. Bolting together might be a challenge too, but could likely be figured out. You will need to have it spaced out some, anyway, to fit a rotor and caliper.

The biggest reason against this idea, running a stub like pictured, with a 1480 joint, seems pointless. I dont believe you can stuff a 1550 yoke into an older knuckle.
 
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