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Negotiating tactics part 2, ran when parked

DMG said:
I assume it is 100% fucked and make my offer accordingly. I have seen way too many people get screwed by being optimistic or believing the seller in these situations. Somewhat related, it is kind of annoying when someone sells a car that "just needs a tuneup" to be driveable. If that's all it is, fix it.
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Exactly. You gotta assume that if it was a quick and easy fix they'd just fix it vs. selling at a discount.
 
Yota Up said:
Who steals a starter?
:confused:
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Aren’t you in Crackhead scam land California? No way you’re a car guy and never heard of this “ran when parked” scam?

The crack head with the car for sale is one who “stole” the starter. Among other things so you can’t hear it crank.
 
grumpy356 said:
You fix it, the cost just went up, or I’m keeping it.
Definitely NOT going down at that point.
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How about if I already paid you your full asking price, have a BOS and the title in my hand. Is it mine to work on then?
 
Foxmxrcer said:
I generally try and diagnose the issue, without them knowing what I'm doing. It's not easy.... But I always plan for the worst when negotiating, and have parts priced out in my head before I go.

Quick story:
Ex gf's friend had a decent looking Oliver 1655 tractor for sale for 3k (my price). Went to look at it, and it's in the middle of a field with a plow hooked to it... They thought the trans shit the bed when they were plowing a few days ago and weren't willing to sell it in that condition.... So I popped the shifter off, got it fixed (stuck in 2 gears), drove it around, said I'd take it... "Oh, well... We don't feel comfortable selling it to you since it has a transmission problem... But we do have this 1465 we will sell you for the same price". And that is how I ended up with a turd of an Oliver that there's NO parts availability for, and the Oliver guys don't even classify as an Oliver.
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My Pepere farmed with an 1855 till he retired in 93. That was the big tractor and only diesel he had. He kept it around for snowblower duty

Pretty sure its still on the farm, Mom's sister bought the place as their retirement home. Last I saw it, my uncle had sourced a cab for it, something my Pepere had always talked about.
Open station and snowblowing I'm sure was miserable!

As a kid my brother and I thought that tractor was a beast. I'd own one just for the memories, even though it's wasn't even agreat tractor in the 70s, and definitely not compared to modern stuff.
 
AK_F250 said:
If it were truly a simple fix or "just needs X", the guy selling it would have done that already.
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I've sold stuff like that I was over dealing with... lost interest or decided it wasn't worth my time or money to fix.
 
All vehicles are considered non running unless i can drive/fire it right now.

I apply the same mentality to tranmissions, unless i know you or that particular transmission im not paying more than core or pnp $ for it.

If its something odd or particular or i dont feel like doing the work to pull one i might pay another $100 over core.

When i bought my crewcab it was know not running and had other issues, price was right, i had the major fail point replacements in my garage already. Had it not worked out i would have made x3 the money parting it out.


Boats have jack shit for resale/parts. If it wont run, whats a motor cost? Is it worth it to put a motor in it?

Im a gm guy, dont ever realy consider a boat if it isnt a gm motor.
 
With a boat that sat that long even if it runs great all the seals, bellows etc probably need to be replaced. If it is cheap enough and you have the time then fine but boats here are in a declining market.

I have bought many (50ish) ATVs not running. Usually the carb from sitting. I think 2 had some other engine issue I found later. I still made money on those two selling them still “broken” with disclosing all the issues.

Edit: I bought my boat not running. I paid $23k. If running it was worth $45-50k at the time. It had only been sitting for a year. Seller had receipt from dealer for new engine the year prior with 30 hours on it before it sat. New engine cost $19,000. Seller said squirrels chewed the wires and that is why it didn’t run. It did have some dead rats in the hull and they did chew the wires but that wasn’t the issue. It was dead batteries. They were so low the onboard charger didn’t recognize the voltage to charge them. I put new batteries fixed some minor chewed wires and went through some little stuff and it is currently on the 4th summer with only minor issues (starter, alternator, plug wires) in the 4 summers.

It was a small gamble spending that much on something that didn’t run but around that time I watched a slightly crappier boat sell in less that a week with diagnosed significant engine issues for $25k. So I felt confident I wouldn’t end up on the losing side even if the boat I bought had major engine issues.
 
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east_beast said:
If it's not running right now then that's what it is. It's not running and the price should reflect that. I would not buy a non-running engine under the assumption that it was going to be a quick and easy fix.
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87manche said:
Samsies with a uhaul truck. I looked it over, got it spinning on the starter long enough to see oil pressure and hear that it didn't have a dead cylinder then bought it before I made it run.

Go look at it. Low-ball the shit out of the seller cause it doesn't run. If the number isn't low enough that you can come out ahead for major expenses then it's not a good deal.

Never trust ran when parked or sellers that have diagnosed it as something simple. If it were simple they'd have fixed it and sell it running for more money
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I agree you you guys (and most of the others not quoted) that anything not running should reflect the price. The issue at hand is I don’t mind going through the fuel system or ignition. But I’m not interested in tearing down an engine no matter what the price. I guess I got my answer though (don’t work on it there) I do like spinning it till oil pressure idea. Might also hear some funny noises.

I do know that most people these days are not mechanics and indeed it might be something simple.

Projectjunkie said:
I won't even tell a seller that it was an easy fix after the fact. I might need a duplicate title or they might want to sell me another car, I don't need them to have a sour taste in their mouth
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That is smart.
 
WaterH said:
I agree you you guys (and most of the others not quoted) that anything not running should reflect the price. The issue at hand is I don’t mind going through the fuel system or ignition. But I’m not interested in tearing down an engine no matter what the price. I guess I got my answer though (don’t work on it there) I do like spinning it till oil pressure idea. Might also hear some funny noises.

I do know that most people these days are not mechanics and indeed it might be something simple.



That is smart.
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Yeah, I get it. Look at the actual quick and easy stuff. But if you can't figure it out pretty easily with fire or fuel then you gotta basically assume the thing is bricked.
 
Most boats that have been sitting will need the rubber water pump impeller, also check the bellows. Rubber parts don't need to be run to degrade.
 
You havent said anything about what the boat is, its price or its overall appearences so leaving all that out, what are similar hulls in similar/better/worse conditions listed for in your area?

What is your desier for that particular boat or hull design?



Theres a lot of cheap and moderately priced boats i want, i can find a lot of reasons not to buy all of them.
 
WaterH said:
I agree you you guys (and most of the others not quoted) that anything not running should reflect the price. The issue at hand is I don’t mind going through the fuel system or ignition. But I’m not interested in tearing down an engine no matter what the price. I guess I got my answer though (don’t work on it there) I do like spinning it till oil pressure idea. Might also hear some funny noises.

I do know that most people these days are not mechanics and indeed it might be something simple.



That is smart.
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What type of engines are you looking at?
 
Juztyn00 said:
Most boats that have been sitting will need the rubber water pump impeller, also check the bellows. Rubber parts don't need to be run to degrade.
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If you are water testing a boat, how long would you run it before saying “it’s good”? Right now I’m talking about a small inboard/outboard. Will it run great for 10 minutes and overheat in 20? Do inboard/outboards overheat?

total newb said:
You havent said anything about what the boat is, its price or its overall appearences so leaving all that out, what are similar hulls in similar/better/worse conditions listed for in your area?

What is your desier for that particular boat or hull design?



Theres a lot of cheap and moderately priced boats i want, i can find a lot of reasons not to buy all of them.
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I’m actually looking for two boats right now. One large boat that we can use as a beach house. (Think 40-60 feet) I also want a runabout in the 20-25 foot range. There are lots of running boats for cheap prices, but the ulpolstery always looks like shit. The boat I was looking at was a 25’ Baja with a big block. Everything was perfect looking. Of course, everything looks better in pics. What if I start it for a few seconds. This guy is far from any real water. If he doesn’t want to take it to water, what do you think? I was thinking of paying him a nonrefundable deposit of say $200 to take it to water.
 
'Just needs a battery' gets treated as it doesn't have compression
you are lazy, so am I

.....I also have the cash and you don't if you can't just put a battery in :grinpimp:
 
WaterH said:
If you are water testing a boat, how long would you run it before saying “it’s good”? Right now I’m talking about a small inboard/outboard. Will it run great for 10 minutes and overheat in 20? Do inboard/outboards overheat?



I’m actually looking for two boats right now. One large boat that we can use as a beach house. (Think 40-60 feet) I also want a runabout in the 20-25 foot range. There are lots of running boats for cheap prices, but the ulpolstery always looks like shit. The boat I was looking at was a 25’ Baja with a big block. Everything was perfect looking. Of course, everything looks better in pics. What if I start it for a few seconds. This guy is far from any real water. If he doesn’t want to take it to water, what do you think? I was thinking of paying him a nonrefundable deposit of say $200 to take it to water.
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Outboard is 100% the way to go in FL. Yamaha/Mercury/Suzuki 4 stroke.
They can definitely idle all day long but overheat within a few minutes of wot.

If he says it's water ready tell him you'll meet at the ramp with cash and a truck. If it turns out to be actually water ready you'll take it home.
 
WaterH said:
If you are water testing a boat, how long would you run it before saying “it’s good”? Right now I’m talking about a small inboard/outboard. Will it run great for 10 minutes and overheat in 20? Do inboard/outboards overheat?



I’m actually looking for two boats right now. One large boat that we can use as a beach house. (Think 40-60 feet) I also want a runabout in the 20-25 foot range. There are lots of running boats for cheap prices, but the ulpolstery always looks like shit. The boat I was looking at was a 25’ Baja with a big block. Everything was perfect looking. Of course, everything looks better in pics. What if I start it for a few seconds. This guy is far from any real water. If he doesn’t want to take it to water, what do you think? I was thinking of paying him a nonrefundable deposit of say $200 to take it to water.
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So no youre not set on it by anymeans.

Its a bigblock gm/ford so thats good youre not tied into funky boat specific parts.

Hopefully its new enough to be a closed loop cooling and youre in a warm ish area so freezing/draining of a open loop system and salt wayer in said system isnt an issue. But it does occasionaly freeze in those areas.


Depending on his distance to water you may have to up that but swinging by and checking things out first would be a good idea. Oil/s, cooling system design, elecs.
 
IMO this kind of shit is more about feeling out the seller to see if they're a shitbag looking to extract top dollar from garbage at the buyer's expense or if they're an honest dude who just wants the thing gone and is willing to come to a reasonable meeting point of price in order to do it.

Most people who are selling shit that's sat a long time honestly want it gone. Shitbag flippers who've let things go to shit from poor storage are generally not common to find when you're looking at stuff that's been sitting a long time since those types try and move shit quickly.

Even when selling shit below scrap price I've found most sellers are amenable to minor work that will let you confirm that some major part of it isn't beyond fucked. If something has been sitting for more than a few years and they won't let you do basic shit to assess condition it's not worth the risk unless the price is stupid cheap.

WaterH said:
How do you guys handle this. I’m always tempted to ask them if I can go there with tools and work on it some before buying. I wonder if this is a good plan. For example, I bring a battery and a can of starting fluid. If it fires up and quits, I can figure it’s fuel and probably not to bad to get running.
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I would avoid doing that unless something prevents you from doing that. You're absolutely right that if you have success the price isn't going down.

WaterH said:
Secondary question, I’m looking at a boat right now that has been stored in a climate controlled shop for over 10 years. It looks brand new, but of course doesn’t run. Do I want to just hook a battery up a spray some either? If it fires right up, would I assume it’s good?
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If the condition of the paint and plastics corroborate the alleged inside storage I would pull plugs and bore scope it. If it all checks out (no rust, no holes in pistons) buy it on the basis that while it might need to be un-stuck from sitting it's likely in very good mechanical condition with minimal wear.
 
87manche said:
If the number isn't low enough that you can come out ahead for major expenses then it's not a good deal.
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And if the seller isn't amenable to that sort of logic from the buyer then they're not someone you want to do business with.
 
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A deal isn't a deal until money exchanges hands and a final handshake. If you fix it, the price will go up. My rule of thumb I use is if it has good compression, then chances are it's an easy fix.
 
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ScottRS said:
I've passed on several cars and trucks that looked like a good deal, but the seller wouldn't allow a test drive because bad brakes, bad alignment, blown head gasket, or some other "just needs a" thing. Nobody's selling a Cummins truck for $3k under market that only needs a clutch, but one with a cracked 53 block that can't be driven because "the clutch is bad and the insurance lapsed", better believe I've seen that. A Subaru with two blown head gaskets will still run enough to drive onto a trailer, but tell me I can't even start it up before money changes hands, it may as well be at the pick-n-pull and needs to be priced as such.
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Only middle aged white women in expensive zip codes get a pass for "needs brakes must be towed" type shit and even then it's still a red flag. :laughing:
 
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Here4memes said:
A deal isn't a deal until money exchanges hands and a final handshake. If you fix it, the price will go up. My rule of thumb I use is if it has good compression, then chances are it's an easy fix.
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Pick a lane.

You can't talk about doing cash and handshake business and then talk about jacking prices after someone else does work for free. Well you can. But it kinds makes you a two faced jerk.
 
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arse_sidewards said:
Only middle aged white women in expensive zip codes get a pass for "needs brakes must be towed" type shit and even then it's still a red flag. :laughing:
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That's the car I just picked up. Needs brakes, recommend tow. I told him I'll call a tow truck if it is bad enough but I've driven enough miles with no or very poor brakes that it'll probably be fine. :laughing: tires are my biggest concern from sitting.

He was surprised I didn't bring a trailer.

At most on something I might remove 1 bolt. Most things it isn't necessary though and build/price based off the visual, assuming anything that can't be validated doesn't work or only partially works
 
WaterH said:
I’m actually looking for two boats right now. One large boat that we can use as a beach house. (Think 40-60 feet) I also want a runabout in the 20-25 foot range. There are lots of running boats for cheap prices, but the ulpolstery always looks like shit. The boat I was looking at was a 25’ Baja with a big block. Everything was perfect looking. Of course, everything looks better in pics. What if I start it for a few seconds. This guy is far from any real water. If he doesn’t want to take it to water, what do you think? I was thinking of paying him a nonrefundable deposit of say $200 to take it to water.
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If it's a carbed big block, you should be able to make it run in less than 30mn with super basic hand tools and a good battery.
If I make it run, I always assume the work I put in was for free and I will use this as an extra test of my skills. No matter what, I will put it back in the same state I encountered it. Take notes and keep track of shit.

If you're not willing to make it run in front of the owner for fear of the price going up, a compression test is really the only thing that matters. But even that could be skewed as a broken valve spring or a pitted valve seat could let the compression out and be a quick and easy fix.

Hence, I always assume the "non-running" vehicles have a major issue or they would be running.

Like everyone else I have 1 story of scoring a major deal for cheap on a non-running car that needed 5mn of work in the sellers driveway, but I have a lot more stories about buying something in way worse condition than it was advertised. I almost got burnt last week and was able to pull out of the deal 10mn before money was going to change hands. Experience has made me a lot more cautious / less optimistic about situations like this.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Pick a lane.

You can't talk about doing cash and handshake business and then talk about jacking prices after someone else does work for free. Well you can. But it kinds makes you a two faced jerk.
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arse if you're trying to paint my face...I'm only replying to the OP. Not you. :flipoff2:

I learned from young age you can't go fixing shit before paying for it and then purchase it. That's how the world turns bro. Reality check...:beer:

I've fixed shit before. The price goes up after that I promise. Have you not bought of marketplace lately? You have to assume every seller is a two faced jerk.
 
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Here4memes said:
arse if you're trying to paint my face...I'm only replying to the OP. Not you. :flipoff2:

I learned from young age you can't go fixing shit before paying for it and then purchase it. That's how the world turns bro. Reality check...:beer:

I've fixed shit before. The price goes up after that I promise. Have you not bought of marketplace lately? You have to assume every seller is a two faced jerk.
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I don't deal with scumbags so if we agree I'm gonna do X and if successful pay Y then that's how it goes down.

It's pretty easy to sniff out those types of people who are likely to be those types and just not deal with them.

But I'm also not some POS flipper myself. I understand that those guys, by nature of having to move volume, need to always be buying and selling and are forced to look in the mirror a lot.
 
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