What's new
By:
Filters

MCI 102-C3 coach to RV - Engine Bay

87manche said:
I love summit.

they back products too. I had a cheapish fuel pump on a jeep with a fuel cell, it was maybe 2 months old. I drove it around town a weekend before a trip to make sure all was well, pump died. Summit didn't have it and it was backordered. I explained to guy on the phone that I was leaving to go wheeling at the end of the week. The next day there was an aeromotive pump at my door. It was like $80 more expensive, dude told me to go have a great weekend.​
Wow. Yes, I love their service. I haven't been that hard up, but as far as returns, they've made the process easier than taking a leak in the yard.
 
Fingers crossed. Tomorrow morning I'm making the call to figure out payment for ten 2W5540 folded cores. All sonic cleaned and pressure tested. Whole bundle shipped to us for around $550. I don't care if they fit right in. For that price, I'll cut anything to make room. Going by the dimensions I was given today after several calls, ten of these would make roughly 2,800 square inches of surface area versus the stock 955ish square inches. I think the port ID of the folded cores is 1.25" or so. Stock rad ports are around 1.875" ID. Don't have an fluid volume comparison until I have everything on hand.
 
CarterKaft said,

The surface area improvement sounds excellent. I looked up some machines that use that core and there is a 3408B gen set that uses 8 of those cores in its radiator 7C-2489.

That sounds like a good thing to me as the 3408B is of the same vintage as your 8v I think and probably suffers from the same in-efficiencies.

I think it calls for a 40" fan in that configuration.

I do wonder how much improvement you could get by running the AMOCS dual pass in your size. It seems the AMOCS has replaced folded core in all CAT applications I could find. I would think it is more expensive for CAT to use AMOCS so there must be some benefit to it.
 
Really great points, guys.

I just got off the phone with the owner and secretary at Best Radiator in Hays, KS. The folded cores are ours and will probably ship out Monday or Tuesday. Any better price than what he's giving me and they'd be free.

I got prices on folded and AMOC cores while talking to the manager at Denver Radiator (a subsidiary of Sherck). The AMOC cores were around $300 higher per core than their folded counterparts. I'll be playing around with the folded cores to see how viable a dual pass configuration with them will be.
 
Just returned from our radiator core retrieval endeavor. 10 cores home safe and sound.
394.jpg
 
CarterKaft said,

I did some looking at a Foretravel RV in our truck shop the other day. It had a side mount radiator with a hydraulic fan and belt drive pump. It looks like it has a temperature regulated signal relief valve in the upper coolant pipe that controls the fan motor speed. No electronics to speak of.
Not a large engine though, I think a 9 liter, I'll ask the tech that overhauled it.

5c03c60465a0f6033f688cca8d3f2298.jpg
 
Been pondering that for a bit now. If I can get some appropriate hydraulic motors and pump to set this up, I'm all for it. Like most everything in this build, I want to keep it easy to replace parts. I've been trying to find info on all the power steering pump mount options on these engines. Prior to buying our bus, I read through all the DD engine data I could conjure up and I swear I saw that there were at least two ways to mount the pumps. Mounting a second, gear-driven pump to drive the fan motors would be awesome. Some kind of thermostatic valve to adjust the oil flow accordingly would be perfect. Almost like a spool valve with a wax motor to keep it all mechanical.
 
87manche said:
Side Radiator wax valve replacement - iRV2 Forums


the hydraulic option seems like it would be awesome. Checks all the boxes. that guy has found the source of cheap wax thermostat hydraulic controller bit.​
Hory shet. This^. We're on to something, guys. Now I need a real answer on the power steering pump options for the 8v92. Direct mounting and gear drive is preferred. The member in that forum said he measured over 3k psi. Best I can do with another Vickers pump would be 2k. Just a guess, but I wouldn't think pressure as high as 3k would be necessary. Still piecing this together as I research.

Brought the cores inside today and got solid measurements. The cores are 6.5" wide and 41.25" tall. 268.125 sq.in. each. Ports are 1.25" ID. We received the full set of brackets with them so I should be able to mock a few up in the next day or two to get an assembled width figure. They're mostly likely mounted at 90 degrees from each other, but I like taking actual measurements.
 
87manche said,

so the foretravel seems to be using components from these people, best I can tell.

https://www.bucherhydraulics.com/480...ems/index.aspx

I would call them.
The external gear pump is available in various models and flange configurations, including those required for direct flange-mounting on all common internal combustion engines.​
it seems to me like if the fans are being bypassed you'd have the low HP cost of just spinning the pump, like electric, but when things get hot you have a legit engine driven mechanical option that's going to move a shit ton of CFMs.

It appears components are kind of pricey, but long lived.
 
The Haldex catalog doesn't list our particular pump, but I'm not sure that's the pump I'd use anyway unless it's all that fits. What I really need to find out is if and where there's a specific location to run a second gear-driven pump. From what I understood, the Detroits where designed with a somewhat modular accessory assembly that allowed mounting of stuff like the air compressor or power steering pump in a couple locations. I haven't yet figured out if the location variations are specific to accessory mounting housings or if one housing can accommodate two of a particular accessory. I could be wrong altogether. My manual shows only partial descriptions of some assemblies or just doesn't elaborate as much as I need it to.
 
About 9” wide per pair in the folded configuration. About 13” wide per pair when left parallel. Mounting options in mind are: Eight of them mounted horizontally up top, two sets of four spanning the full width of the bus - or up to six per side mounted vertically in relatively the same area as the original rads. I still intend to run them in a dual pass configuration, so having an even number of cores is necessary. We can buy two more of these for a pretty reasonable price to make a total of twelve cores.

The stock rad ports are 2.41”sq. to 2.76”sq. Two Micon core ports equates to 2.46”sq. and 3.69”sq. for three. Overkill to run twelve cores?

395.jpg
396.jpg
 
aczlan said,
JNHEscher said:
The Haldex catalog doesn't list our particular pump, but I'm not sure that's the pump I'd use anyway unless it's all that fits. What I really need to find out is if and where there's a specific location to run a second gear-driven pump. From what I understood, the Detroits where designed with a somewhat modular accessory assembly that allowed mounting of stuff like the air compressor or power steering pump in a couple locations. I haven't yet figured out if the location variations are specific to accessory mounting housings or if one housing can accommodate two of a particular accessory. I could be wrong altogether. My manual shows only partial descriptions of some assemblies or just doesn't elaborate as much as I need it to.​
What is the mounting type for your current pump? If its a standard setup (ie: SAE A, AA, B, etc) they make passthrough pumps that you can stack them on top of each other. Someting like this perhaps: https://www.surpluscenter.com/Brands...p-9-8704-C.axd
1.53+cu+in+White+AP+1210251ABAA+Hydraulic+Pump_M.jpg

Another option might be this pump: https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...ump-9-7705.axd
0.43+0.43+0.69+Axial+Pump+Casappa+Hydraulic+Triple+Pump_L.jpg

It uses a hydraulic servo to control a pair of variable piston pumps and has a fixed displacement gear pump in the back, with that you might be able to tie both of the pumps outputs together and use the wax valve to control the fan speed (assuming that it is setup to close off flow when it gets hot), or else you could have two independent fans. Then the gear pump could be used for your power steering and bus leveling system.


Aaron Z
 
87manche said,
CarterKaft said:
That is the same wax motor that is on the RV I mentioned, good find.​
yeah, I just needed an RV manufacturer to find out what system they were using.

I didn't even know that it was a thing.
 
CarterKaft said,

The CAT OEM setup has a 1/4" gap between the cores for trash removal but I don't think you will really need that in the bus.

I think the hydraulics will be allot easier than you think it is once you get that far.
Fan size/speed etc. are going to be the head scratching part.
 
87manche said,
JNHEscher said:
About 9” wide per pair in the folded configuration. About 13” wide per pair when left parallel. Mounting options in mind are: Eight of them mounted horizontally up top, two sets of four spanning the full width of the bus - or up to six per side mounted vertically in relatively the same area as the original rads. I still intend to run them in a dual pass configuration, so having an even number of cores is necessary. We can buy two more of these for a pretty reasonable price to make a total of twelve cores.

The stock rad ports are 2.41”sq. to 2.76”sq. Two Micon core ports equates to 2.46”sq. and 3.69”sq. for three. Overkill to run twelve cores?​
I would arrange them in the way that makes shrouding the fan the easiest/most effective.
since you're going to be nearly 100% relying on it for airflow.
 
The data plate may not be legible from a low quality mobile post, but we have a VTM42 40 55 15. The coastal hydraulics site says the bolt circle is 4.192/4.182, so perhaps slightly slotted. When I was looking at the pump last night, I thought stacking would be ideal but unavailable. I’m not familiar with mounting codes but that has to be easy info to track down. Coupling shafts and gears on the other hand might take a minute to figure out. Coastal's info on the pump - http://www.coastalhydraulics.net/technical-library/International Fluid Power of America/Vane Vickers & Denison style.pdf

Edit: Looks like I have the SAE A pattern. I'm not sure what will fit with what as far as adding a pump in between the engine and OE steering pump.

397.jpg
 
aczlan said,
JNHEscher said:
The data plate may not be legible from a low quality mobile post, but we have a VTM42 40 55 15. The coastal hydraulics site says the bolt circle is 4.192/4.182, so perhaps slightly slotted. When I was looking at the pump last night, I thought stacking would be ideal but unavailable. I’m not familiar with mounting codes but that has to be easy info to track down. Coupling shafts and gears on the other hand might take a minute to figure out. Coastal's info on the pump - http://www.coastalhydraulics.net/technical-library/International Fluid Power of America/Vane Vickers & Denison style.pdf

Edit: Looks like I have the SAE A pattern. I'm not sure what will fit with what as far as adding a pump in between the engine and OE steering pump.​
Looks like it should be a 5.5GPM (at 1600RPM) pump with a 1500PSI relief and a displacement of 0.76 cubic inches, a 2 bolt SAE A mount, a tapered shaft, a manifold intake without a bypass and a 3/4" NPT input port.
Looks like Surplus Center doesn't have anything that has a tapered shaft on the engine side...

Aaron Z
 
aczlan said:
Looks like it should be a 5.5GPM (at 1600RPM) pump with a 1500PSI relief and a displacement of 0.76 cubic inches, a 2 bolt SAE A mount, a tapered shaft, a manifold intake without a bypass and a 3/4" NPT input port.
Looks like Surplus Center doesn't have anything that has a tapered shaft on the engine side...

Aaron Z​
That's what I figured. The shaft and snout of the OE pump aren't going to be anything I can find elsewhere to mate to the engine and utilize the gear. I'll keep looking. There may very well be something out there that works.
 
aczlan said,
JNHEscher said:
That's what I figured. The shaft and snout of the OE pump aren't going to be anything I can find elsewhere to mate to the engine and utilize the gear. I'll keep looking. There may very well be something out there that works.​
There are plenty that you could put in place of it, but I don't see anyone showing one that can be stacked so both could be driven off of the same gear.
Do you have a place that you could run one off of a belt?

Aaron Z
 
aczlan said:
There are plenty that you could put in place of it, but I don't see anyone showing one that can be stacked so both could be driven off of the same gear.
Do you have a place that you could run one off of a belt?

Aaron Z​
If I make the brackets I could run a pump off a pulley. I eliminated all the belt-driven stuff and didn't really want to add any others. On the back of the engine plate, there's one more spot that looks like a place to mount something. It has a two-bolt cover plate. I'll head out there and pull it off to peek at what lies beneath. Could just be a place to adjust timing gear backlash. I'm going to keep pursuing the notion that there's some way to mount another steering pump or at least anything with a shaft and gear to mesh with the gear train.
 
CarterKaft said,

I was thinking on the DD 8v's there are 4 places to mount pumps on the rear engine case.
I might need to go back and look at your pics.
 
Might have something here. Pulled the cover plate off and measured the bolt circle. Identical to the steering pump flange circle, also with 3/8" bolts. In the hole, you see the blower drive with no tangs for an accessory. In my manual, this is said to be an accessory drive with the option to replace the three-bolt blower drive plate with another OE drive plate that has the two tangs that are identical to the tangs on the drive plate for the steering pump. The depth of both accessory drive housings is identical as well. They're actually the same housing. Only difficulty is that it appears I can't remove the housing over the blower drive without pulling the 300-pound alternator. Took a few pics to hopefully clear up what's going on here. I think I need to invest in a used GoPro.

Note: I pointed at the upper accessory drive along with the air compressor and the steering pump underneath.

398.jpg
399.jpg
402.jpg
401.jpg
400.jpg
 
And to add - I kept thinking the steering pump drive gear was attached directly to the pump shaft. Not so. The gear is within the flywheel housing and has the three-bolt drive plate with tangs on it. And I'm guessing the pump has a tanged drive bell on it like in this picture.

403.jpg
 
CarterKaft said:
So is the pump shaft tapered then?​
They don't appear to be. Pics and the Coastal Hydraulics diagram show the VTM pump to have a smooth shaft with a keyway. There's a lot of pumps with the same shaft, but it's how much the Vickers pumps protrude into the drive housing that makes them unique to this. I'm not seeing any other brand with similar dimension.
 
Sample picture here, but I found the part number for the blower drive hub that has the accessory drive tangs. You see it atop this blower drive assembly pictured. Bunch of them on eBay, so I put a $21 offer on one and will have one ordered by some time tomorrow. I believe I have the option of running any VTM42, V10 or V20 Vickers pump, but I can't figure out what the hell the name of the coupler that mounts on the pump shaft is to find one. Pump shaft options range between splined, straight with key slot and straight or maybe slightly tapered with woodruff key.

Coupler options are of interest so I can narrow down which pump to use to drive the fan motors. I could snag that NOS Vickers on eBay that already has the coupler, but I have some learning to do before I can decide if the pump specs are appropriate. The blower drive spins at 2.05xcrank RPM.

404.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Back Refresh