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MCI 102-C3 coach to RV - Engine Bay

aczlan said,
moneymike said:
1cV-5UGzor1SPSOCKDTPnhCJ0YqxyeTdS


Here's the my 102c3 radiators. Pulled them end of last winter to have them cleaned.​
Image links (you have embedding disabled):
https://lh3.google.com/u/0/d/1LU-46m...w1366-h645-iv1
https://lh3.google.com/u/0/d/1n1ydgQ...w1366-h645-iv1
https://lh3.google.com/u/0/d/1cjNWOT...w1366-h645-iv1

Aaron Z
 
CarterKaft said,

I'm on the fence with the champion radiators but using the Meziere water pumps is pretty crazy.

Maybe I am out of touch but as a heavy equipment mechanic I can't see a "racing" part having a 1/4 of the durability of a industrial application.

It says to have a 3000+ hour life expectancy, that's pretty laughable from a industrial stand point.

I like the out of the box thinking and that you aren't scared to challenge the status quo but I am worried you are taking some aspects of this too lightly.

The D series radiator if adequate @ $500 sounds like the way to go, proven core size, shape etc.
 
CarterKaft said:
I'm on the fence with the champion radiators but using the Meziere water pumps is pretty crazy.

Maybe I am out of touch but as a heavy equipment mechanic I can't see a "racing" part having a 1/4 of the durability of a industrial application.

It says to have a 3000+ hour life expectancy, that's pretty laughable from a industrial stand point.

I like the out of the box thinking and that you aren't scared to challenge the status quo but I am worried you are taking some aspects of this too lightly.

The D series radiator if adequate @ $500 sounds like the way to go, proven core size, shape etc.
Click to expand...​
I wouldn't be using the Meziere pumps if I could find another remote mount pump that would work the same with longer life and better price. Still can't find out what the stock pump flow is to know if I'm even in the ballpark. I'm going to message Meziere to find out what part(s) it is in their pumps that have such a short lifespan. Only thing I would expect to need service that soon is the brushes. Even then, I think the brushes in the OE blower fan motors lasted longer than that.

I measured for the D series radiator pair a couple days ago. They won't fit anywhere but at the bottom bay corners unless I modify the upper shelf where the squirrel cage used to reside. About an inch short of even cramming them in at a severe tilt. I am tempted to modify it to fit the D rads because much of the framework in the back wall area is rather rusty. All rusted frame is getting replaced. I have to replace some of the stainless in the rear structure as well. Discovered that this bus had been backed into something by the looks of the craptastic repair work.

We placed our first ebay order with Jay Fowler last week for one of his electric D series wiper kits. Took a few days for him to respond so we were a little worried about $300 going to a dud seller. If the wiper set looks decent, we'll feel more comfortable about ordering radiators. He has a few nasty reviews so we will be diligent.

Whichever radiators we choose, I'd almost prefer to mount them where the originals were, but clocked at a 45 degree or so angle on a vertical axis. After looking at mounting radiators below and building scoops in the doors, I got the feeling that the scoops would catch a hell of a lot of debris in the spray that comes off the tires on wet roads. My hesitancy to mount them up above again was the 90 degree bends in the air flow and lack of it. I think I can make adequate scoops and exits near the corners.
 
Back to the original idea, it sounds like. All responses from electric water pump manufacturers said that their product would fail quickly in this application. For the cost, I was hoping they'd last longer than a few weeks lol. To hell with that. I definitely want the longevity of industrial grade components. Just really had myself set on the benefits of electric control. Ah well.

I'm sifting through this listing of MCI D series and later radiators - M.C.I. - Bus - Radiators. Something's gotta fit without me cutting the bus up. Nobody lists prices on any of the part numbers, so I'll be picking a few out for Luke at US Coach to quote for me. Both my wife and I agree that we would rather purchase new than used. Jay's used rads look rusty in spots and I have enough rust to deal with as it is.
 
350TacoZilla said,

Just wondering here but what about using a commercial 110v water pump? I imagine that as an RV you will have 110v available and if the pump is meant for constant commercial\industrial use you would think it would be fine for the amount the bus is going to be running.

This was a 30 second search so not saying it is best choice but maybe a option?

https://www.absolutewaterpumps.com/a...1-hp-stainless


I see where it says max temp 200 but the same site has some good up to 260.
 
87manche said,

now you're relying on two pieces of electrics for critical cooling.

IMO there's not going to be any substitute for the mechanical water pump.
 
[486] said,

straight from a BMW driver, no less

they got electric engine cooling water pumps on them, and they predictably fail
 
350TacoZilla said:
Just wondering here but what about using a commercial 110v water pump? I imagine that as an RV you will have 110v available and if the pump is meant for constant commercial\industrial use you would think it would be fine for the amount the bus is going to be running.

This was a 30 second search so not saying it is best choice but maybe a option?

https://www.absolutewaterpumps.com/a...1-hp-stainless


I see where it says max temp 200 but the same site has some good up to 260.​
Being an AC motor, I'd have to run it off an inverter which unfortunately uses much more power. It'd be a cool unit otherwise.
 
87manche said:
now you're relying on two pieces of electrics for critical cooling.

IMO there's not going to be any substitute for the mechanical water pump.​
All in all I take mechanical over electric in most cases. Pump speed control that isn't directly proportional to engine RPM would be really nice for those long hill pulls.
 
[486 said:
;44153212]straight from a BMW driver, no less

they got electric engine cooling water pumps on them, and they predictably fail​
I read all about those when they came out with the design. Worthless, but hey, Beamer drivers can afford it. I had high hopes that standalone electric water pumps for the automotive sector would be sturdy units. No such.
 
Elwenil said.

I would just use a normal mechanical pump. If you really need electric power, you could drive it off a heavy duty DC motor, but it would probably be more trouble than it's worth. A mechanical pump driven off the engine is going to be much more reliable. If you need to ramp up the speed of the pump more you can always change the ratio of the pulleys.
 
87manche said,
[486] said:
straight from a BMW driver, no less

they got electric engine cooling water pumps on them, and they predictably fail​
yeah, one that just got the codes for the death of an electric water pump that's going to cost me $400 to replace. :laughing:

the fucker's still working, I just got the error message that the DME couldn't talk with it all the time, which is the precursor to pump electronics failure. It did go ten years and 137K miles, so it's not too bad.
 
Elwenil said:
I would just use a normal mechanical pump. If you really need electric power, you could drive it off a heavy duty DC motor, but it would probably be more trouble than it's worth. A mechanical pump driven off the engine is going to be much more reliable. If you need to ramp up the speed of the pump more you can always change the ratio of the pulleys.​
Far more trouble. All accessories on the 8v92 are gear-driven. On the front and rear of the block, there's a gear case with no disconnect. I don't know yet what all the ratios are or if they can be changed. The 8v92 also uses a water pump with a snap ring holding the cover rather than the five bolts like on other models. If it weren't for that, I'd make the CAD file for an adapter plate to mount a DC motor directly to the pump.
 
bdkw1 said,

I used a Mezeire electric pump on my old Bronco. Worked brilliantly. As far as lifespan I have no idea. I put 50K of Baja miles on it over about 8 years. Never a hiccup. Sold it when I parted out that pig. Unsure what ever happened to it.

I had it thermostatically controlled with no T-stat and no bypass to start with. Which meant when it was cold I had zero heat in the cab
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
. Ended up putting a T-stat back in it.

It was nice to be able to run it full speed in the border wait lines with the AC cranking though, never even thought about getting hot.
 
bdkw1 said:
I used a Mezeire electric pump on my old Bronco. Worked brilliantly. As far as lifespan I have no idea. I put 50K of Baja miles on it over about 8 years. Never a hiccup. Sold it when I parted out that pig. Unsure what ever happened to it.

I had it thermostatically controlled with no T-stat and no bypass to start with. Which meant when it was cold I had zero heat in the cab
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
. Ended up putting a T-stat back in it.

It was nice to be able to run it full speed in the border wait lines with the AC cranking though, never even thought about getting hot.​
I almost bought a Meziere remote mount years ago for one of my Toyota crawler builds. Honestly, I feel they would last far longer than what Meziere states, but the initial cost is hefty for something that could fail quickly. My reasoning for wanting to install a pair is the same as installing multiples of all our electronics. There's a saying going around that pertains to redundancy. "One is none and two is one". If one fails, you have a backup. That and I wanted to be certain that there would be sufficient coolant flow for normal driving.

Neither manufacturer explained to me why they expected their product to fail quickly in this application. Meziere didn't actually answer my questions I sent to them. They only stated that my engine would want the pressure in the cooling system that the factory pump would supply. Huh? I didn't mention the Evans coolant that doesn't require pressure in the system to raise the boiling point, but some of the ancillary lines going to water-cooled accessories are kinda small and may need some pressure to encourage flow. Still, the heat from the engine is what makes the water content expand in 50/50 mixes to increase the pressure in a sealed system and subsequently increase the boiling point.

I'll fire up the Canon again to post pics for you guys. The OE water pump is large and heavy, sealed on both sides and from what I understand, very difficult to rebuild without the exact tooling.
 
Here it be. Elwenil got me thinking. What would be really trick is if I could take this in to the machine shop for two or three turnings so that I could put a roller clutch on the gear and a direct drive DC motor on the front face. That way the engine would run the pump for all normal stuff and then the motor would take over to spin it faster when needed and to spin it slowly to cycle the floor heat when the engine is off. Also a roller clutch between the rotor shaft and pump so that the rotor weren't being spun when the engine is taking care of pump operation.

Without dismantling a perfectly good OE pump, I don't know how difficult adapting a motor to it would be. Considering the cost of aftermarket electric pumps, I have a hunch that the modifications to the OE pump would cost less and last longer. Whatcha think? I'm digging all the cooling system discussion.

364.jpg
365.jpg
366.jpg
 
Pro's and con's on the OE pump mod that I came up with last night:

Pro's -
Simplified plumbing using the OE pump body. Strong pump designed specifically for the engine. Retains engine drive and adds all benefits of electric drive for the purpose in mind. I already have three different 24-volt DC brushed motors to choose from, though don't yet know if either are suitable. If I source a pump with the 5-bolt cover, mounting a motor will be very easy with no more than a dowel or other center positioning .

Con's -
After studying the rebuild procedure in my manual, it's a pain in the ass. A sprag clutch would be best, but smaller roller clutches are all that I can find to fit and they have very limited torque holding capacity. From what I understand, the snap ring pump was designed to flow more than the 5-bolt pump. Complete rebuilt units range from $500-$800. Kits run just under $200, but require a pretty square press to assemble.
 
[486] said,

pros of just running the pump you got with the rads you got and the fans you got and the coolant god intended:
runs for a million miles with zero effort invested
cons:
it isn't german-car-overcomplicated
 
[486] said:
pros of just running the pump you got with the rads you got and the fans you got and the coolant god intended:
runs for a million miles with zero effort invested
cons:
it isn't german-car-overcomplicated​
I wish they ran a million miles. Bunch of other MCI owners say that the water pumps don't last that long. No problem with running what I've got, but I still need an auxiliary pump to cycle floor heat.
 
CarterKaft said,
87manche said:
yeah, one that just got the codes for the death of an electric water pump that's going to cost me $400 to replace. :laughing:

the fucker's still working, I just got the error message that the DME couldn't talk with it all the time, which is the precursor to pump electronics failure. It did go ten years and 137K miles, so it's not too bad.​
I was actually going to suggest the bimmer pump as a option. I have one off my E90 that I have saved for who knows what but I really think you are going to want/need mechanical pump to make this not a huge headache.

I think the radiator conversion is where you want to focus your efforts, build bad ass fans for them if you need to but skip the water pump for now.
 
CarterKaft said:
I was actually going to suggest the bimmer pump as a option. I have one off my E90 that I have saved for who knows what but I really think you are going to want/need mechanical pump to make this not a huge headache.

I think the radiator conversion is where you want to focus your efforts, build bad ass fans for them if you need to but skip the water pump for now.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk​
I'm going to look into the BMW pumps for the hell of it. I do agree that the mechanical pump is a flow monster that's best for the engine cooling. Either way I go, I still have to have some kind of pump to cycle the floor heat. Gonna put that on the back burner until I hear back from U.S. Coach & Equipment. I picked out four MCI radiators to get quotes on. There's a few Prevost rads that would work too. There's a little more I want to measure on the OE pump to pursue the mod idea out of curiosity. Using an RPM range of 500-2400, the water pump spins at 785-3,771rpm.
 
MarkObtinaro said,
JNHEscher said:
I'm going to look into the BMW pumps for the hell of it. I do agree that the mechanical pump is a flow monster that's best for the engine cooling. Either way I go, I still have to have some kind of pump to cycle the floor heat. Gonna put that on the back burner until I hear back from U.S. Coach & Equipment. I picked out four MCI radiators to get quotes on. There's a few Prevost rads that would work too. There's a little more I want to measure on the OE pump to pursue the mod idea out of curiosity. Using an RPM range of 500-2400, the water pump spins at 785-3,771rpm.​
I still do not understand why you are trying to reinvent the wheel in regards to the cooling system.

If all that you need is a pump to circulate the coolant when the engine is not running then a school bus heater booster pump is all that you need. Heater Booster Pumps

Espar and Webasto both make fuel fired coolant heaters with built in circulation pumps.
https://www.eberspaecher-na.com/prod...chool-bus.html
https://www.webasto.com/us/markets-p...lastic-heater/
 
[486] said,

the bmw pumps are brushless three phase, I don't remember 100% but I'm pretty sure the controller board is CAN bus switched
 
87manche said,
[486] said:
the bmw pumps are brushless three phase, I don't remember 100% but I'm pretty sure the controller board is CAN bus switched​
this, 100%

they are controlled via the BSD serial bus with an onboard electronic controller.

You can command them to do specific pump speeds with diagnostic software, so in theory you could sniff out the buss commands to make it do stuff.
bt then you're have to do some sort of custom controller to control the pump based on coolant temp, or a knob or whatever.

way too many failure points, and I doubt the pump is large enough to do the job anyhow. The in/out i's only about an inch in diameter, and it's only meant to cool a 3 liter motor, that's made of magnesium or alumnum.
 
I'd say the beamer controls are way too much to rely on in this case. The fanciest I'd get with an electric motor is a PWM operating off a thermistor with the correct values.
 
CarterKaft said,

Yeah I didn't intend you to run the BMW controller only the motor and pump section. A 3 phase speed control should be easy to hack together from the RC/Hobby world.

Again though anything that you add will be a 1/4 as reliable as a gear driven water pump.

I see the appeal though.
 
I gotcha. Brushless would be preferred with efficiency in mind. Brushed makes the wiring and control so much easier if all I'm using the electric pump(s) for is the radiant heat. I'll look in to the control. I have to compare some costs between that and snagging a Meziere or two for the floor.
 
87manche said,
CarterKaft said:
Yeah I didn't intend you to run the BMW controller only the motor and pump section. A 3 phase speed control should be easy to hack together from the RC/Hobby world.

Again though anything that you add will be a 1/4 as reliable as a gear driven water pump.

I see the appeal though.​

meh, I'd actualy argue that building an arduino with a can shield to control it would be easier than figuring out the motor circuitry.

plus all the electronics are already sealed in the pump.

of course that' also it's achilles heal.
pump failure is actually pretty rare, it's generally always the electronics.
 
Java said,

So why not just run the engine driven water pump, and a small circulation pump for thr floor? The ones I use in radiant systems seem to last forever. Grundfos are the ones I like. They are also easily replace with ball flange valves.
 
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