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MCI 102-C3 coach to RV - Engine Bay
- Thread starter JNHEscher
- Start date
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
bdkw1 said:
Holy shit those are thick! Whats the fin count on them?
Ha. I don't even care lol. Ya, they're way too thick. If you ask me, they're terrible. Entirely too much resistance to air flow to be of much use. I haven't taken a tape to them, but they're roughly 6" thick. And they weigh a crap load for a radiator.Holy shit those are thick! Whats the fin count on them?
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
Something to debate with the wife when she wakes up. You guys as well. Radiator placement is still to be determined.
As you may have noticed, the only parts that occupied the area above the engine bay were the two radiators and the squirrel cage blower. I have the opportunity to place the radiator(s) up above again or beside the engine. I have pro's and con's on each.
Up top, there's more than ample space to make an awesome setup. The radiator stays out of harm's way and the hoses are pretty straightforward. I can fit just about anything that would to the job well. The one major potential for disaster that has been in the back of my mind for months at that if any hose below the radiator had popped, the coolant would drain from the radiators and severely compromised the system if not caught right away. Lastly, the only obstruction to air flow is the back wall. Air has to be drawn from the sides.
Down below, I would more than likely need to use two radiators again in order to have sufficient heat exchanger volume. Cooling may not be as efficient, even if I place the radiators as far away from the engine as possible. Their placement could make them more susceptible to damage, although I intend to choose aluminum radiators that are fairly common and quick to replace. If a leak springs at even half the height of a radiator, the water pump still has a chance of drawing enough coolant to limp you down the road with a reasonable amount of coolant as long as it pushes it up to the combustion chambers. Air flow may be far better as I could easily fab up scoops in the side doors which are place further ahead than the vents up top, potentially offering ducting with less bends to force air through and maybe even keeping wind noise isolated to down below. If engine-related parts are omitted for above, this opens up a ton of storage room in either our bedroom or the engine bay. I do want to keep jugs of lube and such on hand as reserve. Filling the cooling system wouldn't require a ladder. What goes up must come down, but even with a closed loop system, I have a feeling that reducing the pump head would take a little load off.
As you may have noticed, the only parts that occupied the area above the engine bay were the two radiators and the squirrel cage blower. I have the opportunity to place the radiator(s) up above again or beside the engine. I have pro's and con's on each.
Up top, there's more than ample space to make an awesome setup. The radiator stays out of harm's way and the hoses are pretty straightforward. I can fit just about anything that would to the job well. The one major potential for disaster that has been in the back of my mind for months at that if any hose below the radiator had popped, the coolant would drain from the radiators and severely compromised the system if not caught right away. Lastly, the only obstruction to air flow is the back wall. Air has to be drawn from the sides.
Down below, I would more than likely need to use two radiators again in order to have sufficient heat exchanger volume. Cooling may not be as efficient, even if I place the radiators as far away from the engine as possible. Their placement could make them more susceptible to damage, although I intend to choose aluminum radiators that are fairly common and quick to replace. If a leak springs at even half the height of a radiator, the water pump still has a chance of drawing enough coolant to limp you down the road with a reasonable amount of coolant as long as it pushes it up to the combustion chambers. Air flow may be far better as I could easily fab up scoops in the side doors which are place further ahead than the vents up top, potentially offering ducting with less bends to force air through and maybe even keeping wind noise isolated to down below. If engine-related parts are omitted for above, this opens up a ton of storage room in either our bedroom or the engine bay. I do want to keep jugs of lube and such on hand as reserve. Filling the cooling system wouldn't require a ladder. What goes up must come down, but even with a closed loop system, I have a feeling that reducing the pump head would take a little load off.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
bdkw1 said:
How big are the lower openings? Top openings?
Top center is 18H, 50W, 20D. Top sides are 30H, 17W, 19D. Bottom side doors are 30H, 23W, 26D. That's loose measurements for installation room. There's quite a bit of room for diagonal radiator mounting for large units.How big are the lower openings? Top openings?
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
bdkw1 said,
I would go diagonal in the bottom. You could get 2 32" wide standard radiators in each side. Airflow would be better also. 2 fans on each one. Scoops on the outside.
Center top the airflow would suck unless you used 2 radiators in a "V". Top sides would work equally well but would have drain back issues as you noted.
I would go diagonal in the bottom. You could get 2 32" wide standard radiators in each side. Airflow would be better also. 2 fans on each one. Scoops on the outside.
Center top the airflow would suck unless you used 2 radiators in a "V". Top sides would work equally well but would have drain back issues as you noted.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
bdkw1 said:
I would go diagonal in the bottom. You could get 2 32" wide standard radiators in each side. Airflow would be better also. 2 fans on each one. Scoops on the outside.
Center top the airflow would suck unless you used 2 radiators in a "V". Top sides would work equally well but would have drain back issues as you noted.
x2. Wife sounds like she's up for the extra storage too. I'll browse Summit tonight. They've been my best source for non-OE parts so far. No plastic end caps for sure. I didn't really have any plans to stuff anything else in there so that leaves me lots of room for radiators.I would go diagonal in the bottom. You could get 2 32" wide standard radiators in each side. Airflow would be better also. 2 fans on each one. Scoops on the outside.
Center top the airflow would suck unless you used 2 radiators in a "V". Top sides would work equally well but would have drain back issues as you noted.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
Coming up a little short on radiators with the appropriate configuration without a massive price tag. Preferably at dual pass that's roughly 30x24-26 overall. Getting a couple big cores and welding on my own end tanks is looking like the best way to go since I would like the hose ports to be on the end of a tank running parallel to coolant flow. Weld-on bungs are plentiful and I don't need a cap or vent.
I've found some weld-your-own radiators at a decent price. Largest is 31x19 which would be alright. There's not much in the way of testimonies on those though so I'm unsure on quality. I would have to cut one end cap off and re-weld it with a baffle to make it dual pass.
Pic of an intercooler was all I could find as an example of the port direction I'm looking for.
I've found some weld-your-own radiators at a decent price. Largest is 31x19 which would be alright. There's not much in the way of testimonies on those though so I'm unsure on quality. I would have to cut one end cap off and re-weld it with a baffle to make it dual pass.
Pic of an intercooler was all I could find as an example of the port direction I'm looking for.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
I believe I've found a radiator to suit. https://www.jegs.com/i/Champion-Cool...716DP/10002/-1
The only info I need to secure is the hose port threads for the proper AN fittings. Little by little.
The only info I need to secure is the hose port threads for the proper AN fittings. Little by little.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
MarkObtinaro said,
I hope you are kidding about that radiator.
That might be large enough for an engine oil cooler but even if you got four of those I doubt you would have enough cooling capacity for an 8V-92 in the back of a bus. I doubt if one radiator that size would be half large enough to cool the transmission.
Go back and measure the amount of cooling ability the stock radiators had.
Even in a C3 the engines were prone to overheating if the hill was long enough, steep enough, or the ambient temp was high enough. The C3's were nearly as bad as the -7's, -8's, and -9's were. But the C3's still overheated.
I hope you are kidding about that radiator.
That might be large enough for an engine oil cooler but even if you got four of those I doubt you would have enough cooling capacity for an 8V-92 in the back of a bus. I doubt if one radiator that size would be half large enough to cool the transmission.
Go back and measure the amount of cooling ability the stock radiators had.
Even in a C3 the engines were prone to overheating if the hill was long enough, steep enough, or the ambient temp was high enough. The C3's were nearly as bad as the -7's, -8's, and -9's were. But the C3's still overheated.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
It's for real and true. We're not pulling the trigger on those radiators just yet in case I come across something I like more. The cooling is something I'll have to toy with for a little while.
We just got four gallons of the heavy duty Evans waterless stuff yesterday. I'm going to play around with it before putting any in the bus. It states that it has a boiling point of 375 degrees Fahrenheit at atmospheric pressure. If that's true, that's badass. Running an engine past the 220 mark would no longer be a threat. I know it's still snake oil to some. Have to find out for myself since the arguments between the experienced and unexperienced leave a person on the fence. I guess I invite all to see how it goes.
If all goes well today, I'll have to rest of the downstairs conduit runs laid out and ready to mount. There's much to get done while the weather is decent.
We just got four gallons of the heavy duty Evans waterless stuff yesterday. I'm going to play around with it before putting any in the bus. It states that it has a boiling point of 375 degrees Fahrenheit at atmospheric pressure. If that's true, that's badass. Running an engine past the 220 mark would no longer be a threat. I know it's still snake oil to some. Have to find out for myself since the arguments between the experienced and unexperienced leave a person on the fence. I guess I invite all to see how it goes.
If all goes well today, I'll have to rest of the downstairs conduit runs laid out and ready to mount. There's much to get done while the weather is decent.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
bdkw1 said:
Like an old car, if it starts to over heat just turn on the heater and roll down all the windows
That floor heater should be able to dissipate some BTU's.
Bingo. The fantastic part is that the floor will be a 15-20 gallon reserve of cool fluid. And to clarify ahead, because several people thought that I would be popping a valve wide open and cracking the block with cold coolant, whatever valve/thermostat I put in will be plenty slow and controlled.Like an old car, if it starts to over heat just turn on the heater and roll down all the windows
That floor heater should be able to dissipate some BTU's.
If the Evans works, this won't even be necessary. It is an option, though, since the cold side of the floor heat will already be routed to the block the keep the engine above freezing during the winters.
I bet it all sounds like total lunacy. I couldn't convince myself that the factory cooling components would satisfy us. All it took to overheat when we were bringing it home was a steep hill. We had high teens and 20mph winds in the middle of the night to help us out. It still shut down. To hell with that. The Evans supposedly won't boil (which is where overheating comes from) and typically stays under 3psi. That solves two major problems, but we shall see.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
bdkw1 said,
The other downside is not being able to fill up from a hose if you loose some. That and the cost.
JNHEscher said:
The Evans supposedly won't boil (which is where overheating comes from) and typically stays under 3psi. That solves two major problems, but we shall see.
It does have lower thermal transfer properties than regular antifreeze water mix though. So your radiator will need to be a little larger.The Evans supposedly won't boil (which is where overheating comes from) and typically stays under 3psi. That solves two major problems, but we shall see.
The other downside is not being able to fill up from a hose if you loose some. That and the cost.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
Yep. A few things I'll have to contend with soon. I could not come up with any aluminum radiator larger than 31x19ish. The Champion is at least 3-row, dual pass. Any bigger and I jump into industrial territory and major expense. I'd make my own if it were worth the trouble.
The factory units have a lot of volume. They're just difficult to move a lot of air through because of how thick they are. If you were to spread the OE rads out in the same core thickness as the Champions, they might actually be comparable.
The factory units have a lot of volume. They're just difficult to move a lot of air through because of how thick they are. If you were to spread the OE rads out in the same core thickness as the Champions, they might actually be comparable.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
87manche said,
If you add 100 degrees of coolant temp, what's head temperatures going to look like?
How are all of the rubber parts going to hold up to that?
then there's the issue of what happens when it leaks? You didn't want to put the radiator above the engine because a small leak would disable the bus, but you want to put waterless coolant in it? What happens when you have a small leak and can't get the evan's coolant readily, or are you going to carry around gallons of it at @$50 a gallon?
JNHEscher said:
I It states that it has a boiling point of 375 degrees Fahrenheit at atmospheric pressure. If that's true, that's badass. Running an engine past the 220 mark would no longer be a threat.
.
there's more to the cooling system than just keeping the coolant from boiling.I It states that it has a boiling point of 375 degrees Fahrenheit at atmospheric pressure. If that's true, that's badass. Running an engine past the 220 mark would no longer be a threat.
.
If you add 100 degrees of coolant temp, what's head temperatures going to look like?
How are all of the rubber parts going to hold up to that?
then there's the issue of what happens when it leaks? You didn't want to put the radiator above the engine because a small leak would disable the bus, but you want to put waterless coolant in it? What happens when you have a small leak and can't get the evan's coolant readily, or are you going to carry around gallons of it at @$50 a gallon?
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
87manche said,
I found this the other day in an unrelated search
it may be useful
http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get...FULLTEXT01.pdf
I found this the other day in an unrelated search
it may be useful
http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get...FULLTEXT01.pdf
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
From discussions with their staff and what I've gotten from fleet owners trying it out, large diesels are sticking around normal temps with the heavy duty blend and haven't seen a rise of more than 50ish degrees over normal. We'll see if that holds true.
I've been getting all the measurements to switch all hose and clamp connections to AN/JIC connections. Anything is prone to leaks, but that'll cut down on something like 30 hose clamps connections that the factory setup had. Loosing liquid gold that isn't readily available was what held me back from going ahead with it for a while. Luckily, the floor will be a reserve. Expensive, still. We do plan to keep fluid reserves on hand.
If I see the gauge getting close to 300 degrees, I would be wise to let off the throttle regardless of how awesome the coolant may be. Hoses are usually only good for about that much anyway.
I've been asking around for months about what the stock water pump GPM range might be. No answer. I'm looking to run a pair of electric pumps. The benefit of those is speed control no matter what the engine RPM is. Going up a hill with the mechanical pump, your RPM slows, your flow slows, your heat exchange goes to shit while your load increases. I can keep the mechanical pump and supplement with the electrics.
Still laying out all the pros and cons, so I'm not battling any comments. The Evans isn't going in the bus right away. Got time to turn around and stick with water mixes. I'm still thoroughly curious about the waterless, though. Gotta see what it does for my own eyes.
I've been getting all the measurements to switch all hose and clamp connections to AN/JIC connections. Anything is prone to leaks, but that'll cut down on something like 30 hose clamps connections that the factory setup had. Loosing liquid gold that isn't readily available was what held me back from going ahead with it for a while. Luckily, the floor will be a reserve. Expensive, still. We do plan to keep fluid reserves on hand.
If I see the gauge getting close to 300 degrees, I would be wise to let off the throttle regardless of how awesome the coolant may be. Hoses are usually only good for about that much anyway.
I've been asking around for months about what the stock water pump GPM range might be. No answer. I'm looking to run a pair of electric pumps. The benefit of those is speed control no matter what the engine RPM is. Going up a hill with the mechanical pump, your RPM slows, your flow slows, your heat exchange goes to shit while your load increases. I can keep the mechanical pump and supplement with the electrics.
Still laying out all the pros and cons, so I'm not battling any comments. The Evans isn't going in the bus right away. Got time to turn around and stick with water mixes. I'm still thoroughly curious about the waterless, though. Gotta see what it does for my own eyes.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
87manche said:
I found this the other day in an unrelated search
it may be useful
http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get...FULLTEXT01.pdf
I read that one a few years ago. I'll go over it again tonight. Got a few variables to figure out yet.I found this the other day in an unrelated search
it may be useful
http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get...FULLTEXT01.pdf
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
MarkObtinaro said,
Again I have to ask if you are kidding about your cooling system.
I seriously am not trying to rain on your parade. But it just seems to me as if you don't quite understand the care and feeding of a 2-cycle DD engine.
Having a coolant that won't boil until it reaches well over 300* might be a nice thing to have but your engine will melt down into a puddle of broken pieces long before your coolant starts to boil.
2-cycle DD's are very sensitive to overheating, much more so than any 4-cycle engines. With a 2-cycle engine on every cycle every piston fires. There is no "rest" cycle that can scavenge excess heat out of the combustion chamber. Also unlike a 4-cycle, with a 2-cycle using a blower you don't have to worry about head temperature--each cycle gets an injection of fresh air which keeps the head temperature down. When a 2-cycle DD gets too hot the rubber seals in the water jacket will fail or you will crack a piston liner. When the rubber seals fail or you crack a piston liner the coolant will run from the water jacket into the combustion chamber. It will turn the engine into a steam engine for a short period of time until it hydrolocks. Once the engine hydrolocks you will put a piston through the side of the block or blow the crankshaft out the bottom of the engine.
Ideal operating temperature of a 2-cycle DD is 180*-210*. Any cooler and the combustion won't burn all of the fuel completely. Any warmer and you risk cooking the engine.
I understand your desire to find a better way to cool the engine in your bus. But the path down which you are heading is not going to provide enough cooling capacity. If you have ever looked at the radiator in a MCI D-series you will see one radiator in the center instead of one radiator on each side of the bus. Both use essentially the same belt to run the radiator fans. The difference on the D-series is the D-series has a single fan about the size of a large airplane propeller.
If the whole purpose of getting rid of the two side radiators is to get something that will cool the engine off better you may want to consider adapting the D-series radiator to your bus. Just be aware that most D-series had the DD Series 60 4-cycle engine that usually requires a diesel fired heater to create enough heat in the winter. In other words the Series 60 equipped buses don't require as much cooling capacity as a bus with the 8V-92 or 6V-92.
You may also want to look at a Setra S215 with an 8V-92. Those buses had an auxiliary radiator that was about 2/3's the size of the main radiator. Most of the time it did the job and those Setras didn't overheat. The same bus with the Series 60 had an additional luggage compartment instead of an additional radiator and they never overheated.
I will repeat, I am not trying to rain on your parade but I really don't think you are thinking everything through and calculating completely your cooling requirements. So far in your plan I have yet to see any provision for engine oil cooling or transmission fluid cooling. Most of the MCI -7's, -8's, and -9's that left the factory with stick shifts that were later retrofitted with automatic transmissions had more of a problem with overheating. The driver's side radiator was used to cool the transmission fluid essentially cutting the engine cooling capacity in half.
Again I have to ask if you are kidding about your cooling system.
I seriously am not trying to rain on your parade. But it just seems to me as if you don't quite understand the care and feeding of a 2-cycle DD engine.
Having a coolant that won't boil until it reaches well over 300* might be a nice thing to have but your engine will melt down into a puddle of broken pieces long before your coolant starts to boil.
2-cycle DD's are very sensitive to overheating, much more so than any 4-cycle engines. With a 2-cycle engine on every cycle every piston fires. There is no "rest" cycle that can scavenge excess heat out of the combustion chamber. Also unlike a 4-cycle, with a 2-cycle using a blower you don't have to worry about head temperature--each cycle gets an injection of fresh air which keeps the head temperature down. When a 2-cycle DD gets too hot the rubber seals in the water jacket will fail or you will crack a piston liner. When the rubber seals fail or you crack a piston liner the coolant will run from the water jacket into the combustion chamber. It will turn the engine into a steam engine for a short period of time until it hydrolocks. Once the engine hydrolocks you will put a piston through the side of the block or blow the crankshaft out the bottom of the engine.
Ideal operating temperature of a 2-cycle DD is 180*-210*. Any cooler and the combustion won't burn all of the fuel completely. Any warmer and you risk cooking the engine.
I understand your desire to find a better way to cool the engine in your bus. But the path down which you are heading is not going to provide enough cooling capacity. If you have ever looked at the radiator in a MCI D-series you will see one radiator in the center instead of one radiator on each side of the bus. Both use essentially the same belt to run the radiator fans. The difference on the D-series is the D-series has a single fan about the size of a large airplane propeller.
If the whole purpose of getting rid of the two side radiators is to get something that will cool the engine off better you may want to consider adapting the D-series radiator to your bus. Just be aware that most D-series had the DD Series 60 4-cycle engine that usually requires a diesel fired heater to create enough heat in the winter. In other words the Series 60 equipped buses don't require as much cooling capacity as a bus with the 8V-92 or 6V-92.
You may also want to look at a Setra S215 with an 8V-92. Those buses had an auxiliary radiator that was about 2/3's the size of the main radiator. Most of the time it did the job and those Setras didn't overheat. The same bus with the Series 60 had an additional luggage compartment instead of an additional radiator and they never overheated.
I will repeat, I am not trying to rain on your parade but I really don't think you are thinking everything through and calculating completely your cooling requirements. So far in your plan I have yet to see any provision for engine oil cooling or transmission fluid cooling. Most of the MCI -7's, -8's, and -9's that left the factory with stick shifts that were later retrofitted with automatic transmissions had more of a problem with overheating. The driver's side radiator was used to cool the transmission fluid essentially cutting the engine cooling capacity in half.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
Elwenil said,
I think it's probably a bad idea to be looking at automotive radiators too cool what is basically a commercial vehicle. I'd be looking at something out of a Kenworth or Peterbilt, or perhaps another bus that has a better design than your current one.
You could always cut out the roof and mount them up top like a locomotive.
I think it's probably a bad idea to be looking at automotive radiators too cool what is basically a commercial vehicle. I'd be looking at something out of a Kenworth or Peterbilt, or perhaps another bus that has a better design than your current one.
You could always cut out the roof and mount them up top like a locomotive.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
87manche said,
swapping the coolant isn't going to change whether or not you have enough radiator.
I don't have much experience with the DD's. I only know one piece of equipment with one, but that fucker has the most giantest radiator I've ever seen for a motor that's not that large.
JNHEscher said:
From discussions with their staff and what I've gotten from fleet owners trying it out, large diesels are sticking around normal temps with the heavy duty blend and haven't seen a rise of more than 50ish degrees over normal. We'll see if that holds true..
but I assume that those commercial diesels are still using their adequately sized factory radiators?From discussions with their staff and what I've gotten from fleet owners trying it out, large diesels are sticking around normal temps with the heavy duty blend and haven't seen a rise of more than 50ish degrees over normal. We'll see if that holds true..
swapping the coolant isn't going to change whether or not you have enough radiator.
I don't have much experience with the DD's. I only know one piece of equipment with one, but that fucker has the most giantest radiator I've ever seen for a motor that's not that large.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
bdkw1 said,
I think you guys are missing how a radiator works. Those original units were extremely thick making them very inefficient. They would have been great on an airplane going 450MPH. Going with more surface area greatly improves efficiency. They do not need to be 6" thick.
My only concern would be the reduced heat transfer ability's on the Evan's coolant. I don't really care about it's higher boiling point because if it gets to that range you are all ready screwed.
That and I'm way to cheap to buy it
Lets calculate this out, what were the dimensions of the original radiators?
I think you guys are missing how a radiator works. Those original units were extremely thick making them very inefficient. They would have been great on an airplane going 450MPH. Going with more surface area greatly improves efficiency. They do not need to be 6" thick.
My only concern would be the reduced heat transfer ability's on the Evan's coolant. I don't really care about it's higher boiling point because if it gets to that range you are all ready screwed.
That and I'm way to cheap to buy it
Lets calculate this out, what were the dimensions of the original radiators?
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
[486] said,
it is a pusher bus, there's no natural airflow unless you poke the radiator 3' up out the roof, or 3' out the side
bdkw1 said:
I think you guys are missing how a radiator works. Those original units were extremely thick making them very inefficient. They would have been great on an airplane going 450MPH. Going with more surface area greatly improves efficiency. They do not need to be 6" thick.
they had enough fan to use themI think you guys are missing how a radiator works. Those original units were extremely thick making them very inefficient. They would have been great on an airplane going 450MPH. Going with more surface area greatly improves efficiency. They do not need to be 6" thick.
it is a pusher bus, there's no natural airflow unless you poke the radiator 3' up out the roof, or 3' out the side
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
I get how they work. I'm still searching everything that I can think of. Every aluminum commercial truck and bus radiator I come up with that would be a drop-in solution runs $2,500+. I can put in eight of the Champions for that cost and have the room to do it. That would certainly equal the surface area of the commercial units.
I think everyone agrees that the units I pulled out are too thick. 2-3" core thickness would be optimal for sufficient air flow. Scoops are a must. I don't have any aerodynamics maps of buses, but there's gotta be a vortex of sorts at each corner that works against the factory setup when you start picking up speed. Much like passing by an 18-wheeler. You get pushed away at the front of it and pulled back in at the rear.
What I find attractive about multiple, smaller units, I guess, is the ease of repair. If one large unit fails, I would have to take it to a shop and pay a chunk for the repair unless it's something I can solder up myself. If I run four or more of the automotive units and one or two fail, I could bypass them and should be able to have new units in hand within a couple days. The remaining radiators would at least allow us to tool around a bit. Every time I've gone in with a co-worker or boss for radiator repair on their equipment, they've had to wait 1-2 weeks. Surely that's not normal everywhere, but it's been my experience.
The upside to a large, single unit or a pair placed above center is less hose routing and I don't fill the lower bay with radiators. I can get a couple D series rads from Jay Fowler for $500 each plus freight, but I'm shooting for aluminum.
I'll head out to get some radiator measurements for you guys in a few. I don't think they were quite big enough, even if you spread them out to a 3" core thickness. One of the nice features of the Champion radiator that I posted is that every port is threaded. Although I did call to find out that the hose ports are -16 which is rather small. I haven't any interest in using the standard hose clamps again. Champion and a few other automotive radiators let me go straight to AN fittings. Anything else will require welding or brazing on bungs.
I think everyone agrees that the units I pulled out are too thick. 2-3" core thickness would be optimal for sufficient air flow. Scoops are a must. I don't have any aerodynamics maps of buses, but there's gotta be a vortex of sorts at each corner that works against the factory setup when you start picking up speed. Much like passing by an 18-wheeler. You get pushed away at the front of it and pulled back in at the rear.
What I find attractive about multiple, smaller units, I guess, is the ease of repair. If one large unit fails, I would have to take it to a shop and pay a chunk for the repair unless it's something I can solder up myself. If I run four or more of the automotive units and one or two fail, I could bypass them and should be able to have new units in hand within a couple days. The remaining radiators would at least allow us to tool around a bit. Every time I've gone in with a co-worker or boss for radiator repair on their equipment, they've had to wait 1-2 weeks. Surely that's not normal everywhere, but it's been my experience.
The upside to a large, single unit or a pair placed above center is less hose routing and I don't fill the lower bay with radiators. I can get a couple D series rads from Jay Fowler for $500 each plus freight, but I'm shooting for aluminum.
I'll head out to get some radiator measurements for you guys in a few. I don't think they were quite big enough, even if you spread them out to a 3" core thickness. One of the nice features of the Champion radiator that I posted is that every port is threaded. Although I did call to find out that the hose ports are -16 which is rather small. I haven't any interest in using the standard hose clamps again. Champion and a few other automotive radiators let me go straight to AN fittings. Anything else will require welding or brazing on bungs.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
The cores are - drumroll - 24.5" high, 19.5" wide and 7.25" thick (holy shit). I don't know how many rows unless I pull and end tank off. The tubes look to be 5/8". I'll let that brew with you guys. I have work to do.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
bdkw1 said,
So your originals are 478 square inches.
The champions are 542.
So 2 of the champions would be 2.25 X's the surface area. Yes they are not as thick but they are much more efficient. I doubt the last 2.5" of the stockers were doing much anyway.
Total volume is about 2/3's but the floor could more than make up for that if push came to shove.
So your originals are 478 square inches.
The champions are 542.
So 2 of the champions would be 2.25 X's the surface area. Yes they are not as thick but they are much more efficient. I doubt the last 2.5" of the stockers were doing much anyway.
Total volume is about 2/3's but the floor could more than make up for that if push came to shove.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
I'll add that most of the stock coolant connections have an ID of 1-5/8". -16AN hose is around 7/8" ID. Too restrictive, as far as I can tell. I still have no idea what the stock water pump flow rate is or what the gear ratios are between it and the crank. I would assume that it's overdriven.
Those monster thick rads would have little fluid flow resistance. The highest GPM of any of the Meziere remote mount pumps is 55GPM. I still plan to run a pair and use one at a lower voltage to cycle the floor heat when the engine is off.
Those monster thick rads would have little fluid flow resistance. The highest GPM of any of the Meziere remote mount pumps is 55GPM. I still plan to run a pair and use one at a lower voltage to cycle the floor heat when the engine is off.
JNHEscher
Red Skull Member
One more https://www.jegs.com/i/Champion-Cool...C1165/10002/-1
739 square inches. Save $26 per radiator to put towards welding -20 bungs on. -16 is just too small. The 1165 utilizes the lower bay space the best.
I'll keep digging for commercial radiators over the next few days. If I don't come up with any all aluminum units that will be easy to deal with, I'd say a few of the Champions will do the job.
739 square inches. Save $26 per radiator to put towards welding -20 bungs on. -16 is just too small. The 1165 utilizes the lower bay space the best.
I'll keep digging for commercial radiators over the next few days. If I don't come up with any all aluminum units that will be easy to deal with, I'd say a few of the Champions will do the job.