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MCI 102-C3 coach to RV - Engine Bay

I just ordered the same tach on ebay for less than $10. If it does the job, it does the job. I already have an infrared thermometer too. Maybe a couple pressure gauges next and I'll be all set for tuning the whole setup.

I kinda wanted to get pumps and motors figured out before ordering the thermostatic valve, but I suppose I could go ahead and get that. I didn't see any more than one option. Must be sort of a one-size-fits-all and tune it as needed item? I need to find the stackable pumps again to see if there's any that will work.

Got occupied and missed my shots at calling places today. There's tomorrow morning before we head up to Springs to meet the wife with the lender about closing on a house. Once we close, we're head straight for building permits to put a shop to house the bus. Possibly a shop big enough to fit two buses because we want to make an enclosed space for other people to use for converting their buses as well.
 
Searching the thermo valves and came across this - Source Engineering Inc | Custom RV Chassis | Eugene, OR
Their Manaco rad fan spins at over 3 grand and it appears to be the exact same blade and hub assembly that Hoverhawk shows.

320-2240 RPM fan speed in this system. https://www.centralstatesbus.com/wp-...s/a3hydfan.pdf
I don't see a pilot control valve on most of the motors. Depending on the full open restriction of the thermo valve, would I not be able to just use the valve as bypass between pump output and res? The fan motors being a resistance to flow that should be greater than what the valve would be, I would think they would spin slowly and pick up speed as the thermo valve began to close off the pump output bypass in response to the coolant temp increase, of course somewhat dependent on pump RPM and thermo valve flow at full open.
 
aczlan said,
JNHEscher said:
Searching the thermo valves and came across this - Source Engineering Inc | Custom RV Chassis | Eugene, OR
Their Manaco rad fan spins at over 3 grand and it appears to be the exact same blade and hub assembly that Hoverhawk shows.

320-2240 RPM fan speed in this system. https://www.centralstatesbus.com/wp-...s/a3hydfan.pdf
I don't see a pilot control valve on most of the motors. Depending on the full open restriction of the thermo valve, would I not be able to just use the valve as bypass between pump output and res? The fan motors being a resistance to flow that should be greater than what the valve would be, I would think they would spin slowly and pick up speed as the thermo valve began to close off the pump output bypass in response to the coolant temp increase, of course somewhat dependent on pump RPM and thermo valve flow at full open.​
You should be able to, but it looks like that valve is made to be an integral part of the fan motor, so it may not be able to be used as an inline valve.
One option for an inline valve could be: https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...-9-5178-30.axd
https://www.brand-hyd.com/wfData/fil...EV(D)-2018.pdf
That should allow you to use a controller that gives variable output voltage to control hydraulic flow from 0-30GPM (or 0-15GPM with the other model).

Aaron Z
 
Spoke with the owner of Hoverhawk some more. We chatted about the details of my potential radiator setup. Type 3 hub blades can be removed, though no pitch adjustment. He recommended the type 3 because it's a much smaller and lighter hub. Shaft sizes are 3/4"-1-1/4". Type 4 and 5 hubs are the same and blade pitch is adjusted by unbolting the front and back half of the hub and resetting the blade pitch with pins. He told me about how he used to have an air boat that was powered with a pair of 6v53"s, so he knew about the two-stroke Detroits and their cooling systems. Love it when myself and the person I'm talking to are on the same page.
 
Sauer Sundstrand thermostatic valve has been purchased. $190, which is apparently a steal for these things. The ports look too small for one valve to make for a sufficient fan circuit bypass. Maybe I'll buy a second valve to run in parallel with the first. A nice upside to two valves would be one at each head or thermostat housing to start spinning up the fans. Full speed once both valves close off.

I searched all over for alternative brands. Best I came up with was Rostra Vernatherm which was another large company that doesn't offer sales to end users.
 
aczlan said,
JNHEscher said:
Sauer Sundstrand thermostatic valve has been purchased. $190, which is apparently a steal for these things. The ports look too small for one valve to make for a sufficient fan circuit bypass. Maybe I'll buy a second valve to run in parallel with the first. A nice upside to two valves would be one at each head or thermostat housing to start spinning up the fans. Full speed once both valves close off.

I searched all over for alternative brands. Best I came up with was Rostra Vernatherm which was another large company that doesn't offer sales to end users.​
As I understand it from the diagrams that have been posted, the valve controls a pilot circuit which controls the main flow.
That's what the "Fan Motor Control" valve block on the back of the OEM fanmotor is for. Then you run small lines to the thermostatic valve and large lines to the fan motor.
Edit: If you look at page 3 of the PDF from the other day ( https://www.centralstatesbus.com/wp-...s/a3hydfan.pdf ), lines E, F and G (the circuit with the thermostatic valve and the charge air override solenoid) are in the pilot circuit, line G is specifically called out as the "Pilot Supply" line.

Aaron Z
 
aczlan said:
As I understand it from the diagrams that have been posted, the valve controls a pilot circuit which controls the main flow.
That's what the "Fan Motor Control" valve block on the back of the OEM fanmotor is for. Then you run small lines to the thermostatic valve and large lines to the fan motor.
Edit: If you look at page 3 of the PDF from the other day ( https://www.centralstatesbus.com/wp-...s/a3hydfan.pdf ), lines E, F and G (the circuit with the thermostatic valve and the charge air override solenoid) are in the pilot circuit, line G is specifically called out as the "Pilot Supply" line.

Aaron Z​
That's what I understood too. I don't know that I'll find hydraulic motors with pilot circuits without paying thousands for motors designed specifically for hydrostatic fans. Surplus Center might have something that I haven't spotted yet. When the thermo valve arrives, I'll post all the specs with a bit of an analysis to determine what, if anything, I can do with it in the circuit I have in mind. The 12 volt bypass valve posted above would work great if the wax motor doesn't pan out.
 
87manche said:
are there external flow regulators with pilot circuits that you can plumb in before the motors?​
There's a number of them. One simple, pilot-operated valve - https://www.surpluscenter.com/Brands...-9-8407-50.axd
I'd like to get a good look at the thermovalve. I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that it would perform the necessary flow control to the fans on its own with some tweaking. A pilot valve may be the only way, though they do add a little more wear a tear and a failure point to the train of moving metal parts.

22" fans it is. 6 blades is probably fine for running 3 or 6. I don't see myself ever taking an 8 blade fan down to 2 blades, but 4 for sure. Such a toss-up when I haven't any way to calculate restriction, pressure, flow, etc. in this application. All the props are essentially rated for free-air flow. Have to go with an adjustable hub so I can try to match motor HP for the RPM. And I'm thinking I should make 2500 RPM the max at engine redline (2400). Cruising engine RPM seems to average at 2000 which would be driving the pump at 4100 RPM.
 
CarterKaft said,

I had a reply I thought I sent...

The motor you use will need to be designed for fan use so it has a free wheel valve to prevent shaft breakage on shutdown. You can plumb one in the hoses externally, but keep that in mind.
 
CarterKaft said:
I had a reply I thought I sent...

The motor you use will need to be designed for fan use so it has a free wheel valve to prevent shaft breakage on shutdown. You can plumb one in the hoses externally, but keep that in mind.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk​
Yep. That's the easy part lol.
 
aczlan said,
JNHEscher said:
There's a number of them. One simple, pilot-operated valve - https://www.surpluscenter.com/Brands...-9-8407-50.axd​
IIRC, the thermovalve closes when it gets hot, correct? Thus, that valve would do the opposite of what you want to do (unless you use a closed center, variable displacment, constant pressure type pump) given that it opens when there is pressure from the pilot side.
JNHEscher said:
I'd like to get a good look at the thermovalve. I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that it would perform the necessary flow control to the fans on its own with some tweaking. A pilot valve may be the only way, though they do add a little more wear a tear and a failure point to the train of moving metal parts.​
So, you are thinking of putting one (or more?) in parallel with the fan motors so that they let the fluid (or some of the fluid) bypass the fan motors until they get hot enough to close?
From what I found in that troubleshooting manual (where is says to use a 4000PSI valve to replace the thermovalve to see if it works), that should be fine as long as it allows enough flow.
JNHEscher said:
22" fans it is. 6 blades is probably fine for running 3 or 6. I don't see myself ever taking an 8 blade fan down to 2 blades, but 4 for sure. Such a toss-up when I haven't any way to calculate restriction, pressure, flow, etc. in this application. All the props are essentially rated for free-air flow. Have to go with an adjustable hub so I can try to match motor HP for the RPM. And I'm thinking I should make 2500 RPM the max at engine redline (2400). Cruising engine RPM seems to average at 2000 which would be driving the pump at 4100 RPM.​
Should be interesting. Do you plan (for testing, if not permanently) to have instrumentation to give you in and out temps for the radiators and the fan speeds so you can track how well its working?

Aaron Z
 
All correct, aczlan.

From all that I read, the thermovalve progressively closes off flow through it as it reaches a particular temperature and the response temperature is adjustable. I don't yet know the size of the ports on the valve, but they look as though they're roughly half the size of the ports on many of the pumps and motors.

With enough thermovalves in parallel, depending on their flow rate, surely they would bypass the fans enough to allow the fans to spin slowly with the engine cool and speed the fans up as the thermovalves close off the bypass to direct all pump flow to the fan motors. I really don't know what pressures I will see in this system. The Central State Bus pdf has a nice chart of values for diagnostics which clues me in pretty well, although my setup won't be identical.

Once all this is assembled and running, I'll be setting up temperature and pressure gauges along with the optical tach and IR thermometer to dial everything in. I'll be charting all readings with each change in thermovalve adjustment and blade pitch under various engine loads. Certainly some work to put in, but designing this whole system is getting really fun to do since I haven't gone this far with a cooling system before.

Edit:
Went on a hunt for what the fan specs were on the system talked about on the Central States Bus pdf. https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.c...ulicSystem.pdf
9 blade, 26".....with a 5 degree pitch?..
With that, a 26" circle is 520.93 sq. in. and four 22" circles is 1,520.52 sq. in. My four fans would be almost triple the fan area of the system mentioned in the pdf.
 
Punching in the numbers into fan calculators using Hoverhawk's 22" 8 blade T3 pressure fan. Dropping the RPM from 3600 to 2500 takes the HP requirement from 23.5 to 7.9. That's a hell of a drop, but makes some sense because 2500 is pretty tame compared to 3600 when you're thinking about air turbulence. I still hesitate to rely on those calculations at this time.
 
aczlan said,
JNHEscher said:
All correct, aczlan.

From all that I read, the thermovalve progressively closes off flow through it as it reaches a particular temperature and the response temperature is adjustable. I don't yet know the size of the ports on the valve, but they look as though they're roughly half the size of the ports on many of the pumps and motors.

With enough thermovalves in parallel, depending on their flow rate, surely they would bypass the fans enough to allow the fans to spin slowly with the engine cool and speed the fans up as the thermovalves close off the bypass to direct all pump flow to the fan motors. I really don't know what pressures I will see in this system. The Central State Bus pdf has a nice chart of values for diagnostics which clues me in pretty well, although my setup won't be identical.​
Sounds like a plan.
JNHEscher said:
Once all this is assembled and running, I'll be setting up temperature and pressure gauges along with the optical tach and IR thermometer to dial everything in. I'll be charting all readings with each change in thermovalve adjustment and blade pitch under various engine loads. Certainly some work to put in, but designing this whole system is getting really fun to do since I haven't gone this far with a cooling system before.​
It might be worth putting in a pair of permanent ports for a sender such as the one for this: https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-SP0F000...dp/B00UZ9H59A/ on your in and out ports, then you could keep an eye on how well the radiators are cooling while driving.
JNHEscher said:
Edit:
Went on a hunt for what the fan specs were on the system talked about on the Central States Bus pdf. https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.c...ulicSystem.pdf
9 blade, 26".....with a 5 degree pitch?..
With that, a 26" circle is 520.93 sq. in. and four 22" circles is 1,520.52 sq. in. My four fans would be almost triple the fan area of the system mentioned in the pdf.​
It should have no problem keeping it cool then.
JNHEscher said:
Punching in the numbers into fan calculators using Hoverhawk's 22" 8 blade T3 pressure fan. Dropping the RPM from 3600 to 2500 takes the HP requirement from 23.5 to 7.9. That's a hell of a drop, but makes some sense because 2500 is pretty tame compared to 3600 when you're thinking about air turbulence. I still hesitate to rely on those calculations at this time.​
About half of the drop from the lower speed alone as the same ~34.3ft/lb of torque that makes 23.5HP at 3600RPM only makes 16.3HP at 2500RPM.

Aaron Z
 
These Detroits came with all kinds of ports. It'll be getting several more gauges than it came with along with sight tubes for each fluid.

16.3 HP sounds much more realistic. HP figure at my RPM is something I'll be calling Hoverhawk again about. I'm sure has at least a ballpark idea.
 
Just might get a pump drive installed tonight. With this I can measure how far in the coupler sits so that I get a pump with the correct length shaft.

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aczlan said,

Very nice. With that all you will need is a total HP requirement from Hoverhawk so you know what size pump to get...

Aaron Z
 
Moving right along. Getting all the pics I can so that there's an album of the process in consecutive order online somewhere. The alternator isn't all that heavy, but does have to be removed to perform the hub swap.

All but one nut on the alternator are 3/4". One at the very bottom, in a very difficult location to access, is 9/16". I had just enough room to slip my 14mm, 72-tooth ratcheting wrench in and get one click at a time to break it loose. Getting that nut back on should be real fun. Turns out that none of the nuts had been torqued. Good catch.

Looking inside the alternator drive, you quickly identify a collision with fasteners. You ever talk to somebody about their car for sale and begin to get the feeling that all these parts they replaced weren't put on merely because they were due? The previous mechanic told me that the alternator had recently been replaced. No explanation. Just that it was done. I am glad they did it and not I. I can't remember what he said it cost them, but it was crazy high.

The accessory housing is off. Easy to pull. As shown, it is one piece with the alternator spacer plate, hence the removal of the alt. is required. Bolts retaining the upper section of the housing are 9/16" and one is a through bolt with a nut on the backside. One strike with a dead blow knocks it right loose.

I thought I had figured out why some of my pictures were clocked 90-180 degrees when uploading them. Guess not. At least they're coming in relatively focused.

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Shot of the blower hub without tangs.

Very easy to swap out hubs once the housing is off. Three 9/16" bolts hold the hub and ring to the drive gear. The hub slips right off the blower drive shaft spline. The snap ring can be left in so as not to lose is in the engine bay abyss.

The frozen wind really picked up, but I went out to my workbench so I could swap hubs on the ring and keep track of it all. Three 9/16" bolts hold the hub to the ring. Snap ring goes on the new hub. Might as well put it in the hub before bolting the ring back onto the gear. The blower drive shaft has a small spring in the blower end of it that will want to push against the snap ring. All fasteners are right-hand thread, btw.
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Stopped here for the moment. New hub, spider and pump shaft coupler are on. A few light taps with the dead blow seats the coupler assembly nicely. I checked the pump coupler and spider against the housing. They don't fit through the pump pilot hole either, so the coupler is on before fitting the housing back on.

I paused here because I wanted to give the housing some thought for a few. I was considering cutting the housing between the alt. spacer and pump mount so that they could be removed separately. No point in exerting the effort, really. Any other time that I have to remove the housing is for a full breakdown and cleaning. At that point, it's all coming apart anyway.

Time to head back out to set up the shop vac and scrape all the junk off so I can reseal the plate.

426.jpg
 
aczlan said,

Are the allen head bolts inside the alternator drive (if I understood correctly that's what it is) chewed up from the previous alternator (bad drive end bearing perhaps?), or was that from the current loose alternator bolts?
Is this the alternator that you said was extremely heavy?
Is the blower located on the drive end by the splines in the drive that you just swapped in? Looks almost like its just sitting loose in there.

Aaron Z
 
aczlan said:
Are the allen head bolts inside the alternator drive (if I understood correctly that's what it is) chewed up from the previous alternator (bad drive end bearing perhaps?), or was that from the current loose alternator bolts?
Is this the alternator that you said was extremely heavy?
Is the blower located on the drive end by the splines in the drive that you just swapped in? Looks almost like its just sitting loose in there.

Aaron Z​
Chewed up allen bolts are definitely from the previous alternator. No bad contact with this one. I'm guessing the shaft nut came loose or a bearing lost its way. The alternator was seated pretty well and snug, but the nuts barely took any torque to break loose. All fasteners have split washers on them.

I was told numerous times that these alternators were somewhere between 200 and 300 pounds. Not at all. More like 100.

Yep, blower is on the other end of the splined shaft hanging there. The hub bolted to the gear keeps it aligned. I'm almost sure there's another coupler at the blower end.
 
All gasket surfaces cleaned up and ready to go. Took the paper gasket off the alternator. Never been a fan of paper or cork gaskets. Permatex Ultra Black tomorrow in the daylight. And then I'll mic the depth between the pump flange surface and end of the coupler. Kinda looks like any pump will reach it, but I want to be sure the shaft can engage plenty.
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Mr. Mindless said,

I used to say the same re: gaskets, but after resealing a Cummins B5.9 using Cummins paper gaskets with Permatex High Tack on both sides of them, along with brake cleaning all holes and fasteners and using red locktite on reassembly, the resulting long-term leak-free situation made me a believer that maybe just RTVing everything might not be the way to go, particularly in high vibration environments.
 
Mr. Mindless said:
I used to say the same re: gaskets, but after resealing a Cummins B5.9 using Cummins paper gaskets with Permatex High Tack on both sides of them, along with brake cleaning all holes and fasteners and using red locktite on reassembly, the resulting long-term leak-free situation made me a believer that maybe just RTVing everything might not be the way to go, particularly in high vibration environments.​
Interesting. This did have RTV on both sides of the paper gasket. Still leaked. I'm omitting the gaskets and going straight Permatex, although I am calling it temporary. Later on down the road, I want to o-ring everything on this beast. I've been looking over all the gasket surfaces and most everything appears to lend itself well to making o-ring pockets. Just a thought for cleaning up this sloppy machine.
 
CarterKaft said,

As long as the gaps aren't excessive I have switched to anerobic sealer instead of RTV and I much prefer it.

I rarely use RTV at work only on some cover plates and oil pan gasket joints/splices.
I feel like the flexible anerboic sealant is far superior for engine use.

Loctite 38657 is what I use almost exclusively but I think 515-518 will work equally as well.

RTV in an engine application is pretty dangerous as the RTV fragments that are squeezed out of the flange will harden and enter the lubrication system clogging piston squirter's and other critical lube passages. Anerobics don't have this problem as they usually wash off the interior and dilute in the oil.
 
CarterKaft said,

The best news is that the Anerobic variety has a near limitless life span.

Bear with me I am not scientist.. It has to have "metal ions" to activate and thus sealed in its little container it lasts along time. Even a open tube lasts me months of occasional use.
 
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