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MCI 102-C3 coach to RV - Engine Bay

02rexwi said,

Do you have any experience in Inventor? I've seen plenty of Fusion 360 videos on Youtube but never tried it since I've got inventor at work. I assume they're fairly similar both being Autodesk products.
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7


That manifold looks great BTW - good work!
 
02rexwi said:
Do you have any experience in Inventor? I've seen plenty of Fusion 360 videos on Youtube but never tried it since I've got inventor at work. I assume they're fairly similar both being Autodesk products.
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7


That manifold looks great BTW - good work!​
I haven't, but I think you're right about them being similar. Same with Solidworks. I started off with SketchUp years ago and eventually got turned on to Fusion from a hobby machinist while I was in the process of building a mini rock crawler for my son. Fusion has been free (so far) so I stick with it and try to learn more each time I use it. No exaggeration, there are probably a million tricks to learn and the updates just keep coming.

Edit: Should've included this. You can switch Fusion to operate much like Solidworks and I'm sure the same goes for Inventor. I've had the hardest time switching between SketchUp and Fusion, as with other folks, because they're are such different animals. Each program is backwards relative to the other. The team at AutoDesk knows exactly what they're doing to make transitions and functionality nearly seamless.
 
I talked to a couple guys at Ticon/Stainless Bros today about their T4 merge collector. Had some good laughs about my project that they thought was pretty cool. The inlets are roughly angled at 12 degrees. Not far from what I assumed that the two inlets were 22.5 degrees apart. I'm putting together a list of pipe parts for the manifolds. Ordered a 12" section of 3" schedule 10 stainless tube off eBay for half the McMaster price with free shipping to give it a try for the oblong transitions.
 
[486] said,
JNHEscher said:
Ordered a 12" section of 3" schedule 10 stainless tube off eBay for half the McMaster price with free shipping to give it a try for the oblong transitions.​
if you're fine with 409 stainless (it gets surface rust but doesn't rust through) then a way cheap source is 90s chevy 2/3500s in the junkyard
the gmt400 ones have more straight sections to them, and some nice mandrel 90s, they are actual 3" OD
when they went from the 5.0/5.7/7.4 to the 4.8/5.3/6.0/8.1 the exhaust got more noodly without nice straight pieces, and the bends are not as nice
 
[486] said:
if you're fine with 409 stainless (it gets surface rust but doesn't rust through) then a way cheap source is 90s chevy 2/3500s in the junkyard
the gmt400 ones have more straight sections to them, and some nice mandrel 90s, they are actual 3" OD
when they went from the 5.0/5.7/7.4 to the 4.8/5.3/6.0/8.1 the exhaust got more noodly without nice straight pieces, and the bends are not as nice​
Didn't know that. Tons of Chevys in the local U Pull n Pay yard. I may check that out because 3" short elbows are pricey. Short cast elbows cost a lot more than long elbows in every size and I'm not sure why yet.
 
Just playing around with stock elbows. Rather surprised how long and short elbows lined right up, but then again, not surprised because the elbows have probably been around as long as Detroit engines which were made fit so much. 11.25" between centers of the merged short elbows, so there would be at least another 6" before reaching the T4 flange. I'd rather go with manifolds that tuck closer to the block and still wish we had gone with the Comp oil-less turbos.

871.jpg
872.jpg
 
[486] said,
JNHEscher said:
Didn't know that. Tons of Chevys in the local U Pull n Pay yard. I may check that out because 3" short elbows are pricey. Short cast elbows cost a lot more than long elbows in every size and I'm not sure why yet.​
they are longer radius elbows not real tight ones, something like 5 or 6" CLR

probably be a good idea to take the 3" ovals for the ports and then cut out some wedges from the other end to turn them into reducers, as 3" primaries is pretty ridiculous on an n/a motor never mind with a turbo squeezing those exhaust gasses down
 
[486] said:
they are longer radius elbows not real tight ones, something like 5 or 6" CLR

probably be a good idea to take the 3" ovals for the ports and then cut out some wedges from the other end to turn them into reducers, as 3" primaries is pretty ridiculous on an n/a motor never mind with a turbo squeezing those exhaust gasses down​
Ya, 3" is huge and I would rather reduce it shortly after the head. CX Racing has cast reducer elbows - https://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-3-...e/143365214768
They have a terrible list of negative feedback regarding the products they sell and their business practices, but if all I'm buying is some bare cast pieces, I think I'd be okay. They're the only place I can find that sell those elbow reducers. Tempted to buy one and smash it into the oval out of curiosity.

The 3" tube off eBay shipped out. I'll press a section of that and see if it matches the head ports more closely. According to Vibrant Performance in reference to their 0.065 wall tubing, 3" = Actual Tube Size of 2.125" x 3.5". 3" schedule 10 pipe may be what fits best.
 
02rexwi said,
JNHEscher said:
Just playing around with stock elbows. Rather surprised how long and short elbows lined right up, but then again, not surprised because the elbows have probably been around as long as Detroit engines which were made fit so much. 11.25" between centers of the merged short elbows, so there would be at least another 6" before reaching the T4 flange. I'd rather go with manifolds that tuck closer to the block and still wish we had gone with the Comp oil-less turbos.​
I know someone that tried Comp oil-less turbos about 5 years back and had nothing but problems with them. With that said I haven't seen anything about them since that time.
 
02rexwi said:
I know someone that tried Comp oil-less turbos about 5 years back and had nothing but problems with them. With that said I haven't seen anything about them since that time.​
I saw a few complaints from a few years ago. They appear to have improved greatly since then. Had a fair amount of trouble getting a price on the oil-less units and they were quite a ways off the sizing when I talked to them, hence the jump on the NRE twins. I'm toying with the idea of swapping the steering pump to the higher accessory drive and running a tandem pump off the lower drive - one for oil pumping and scavenging just for the turbos. I'm highly reluctant to run the nasty Detroit oil through these.
 
CarterKaft said,
JNHEscher said:
I'm toying with the idea of swapping the steering pump to the higher accessory drive and running a tandem pump off the lower drive - one for oil pumping and scavenging just for the turbos. I'm highly reluctant to run the nasty Detroit oil through these.​
Using a bypass filter seems like a much simpler method of oiling than all that.
 
CarterKaft said:
Using a bypass filter seems like a much simpler method of oiling than all that.​
As long as it cleans up the oil enough. I would also love to be able to filter the air box oil for reuse in the engine. There's generally moisture content in it because atmospheric air is being blown across the oil.
 
[486] said,
JNHEscher said:
Ya, 3" is huge and I would rather reduce it shortly after the head. CX Racing has cast reducer elbows - https://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-3-...e/143365214768
They have a terrible list of negative feedback regarding the products they sell and their business practices, but if all I'm buying is some bare cast pieces, I think I'd be okay. They're the only place I can find that sell those elbow reducers. Tempted to buy one and smash it into the oval out of curiosity.

The 3" tube off eBay shipped out. I'll press a section of that and see if it matches the head ports more closely. According to Vibrant Performance in reference to their 0.065 wall tubing, 3" = Actual Tube Size of 2.125" x 3.5". 3" schedule 10 pipe may be what fits best.​
what's the radius on the ports?
I'd go for that diameter tube, then just split a piece and weld in triangles to make the straight sections of the oval ports
 
[486] said:
what's the radius on the ports?
I'd go for that diameter tube, then just split a piece and weld in triangles to make the straight sections of the oval ports​
0.85" radius which would be 1-1/2" schedule 10. When I first got on this, I seriously considered 1-1/2" tube split down center and filling in the flats with 12 gauge 304. Running round tube sure takes up a lot of space. Vibrant Performance has some really nice stainless oblong tubing with mandrel bends. Their 3" looks to be almost half an inch too tall.

873.jpg
 
FirstRam said,
JNHEscher said:
https://insanediesel.com/

Whatcha know? I'd be plenty satisfied with 1-2 microns. Agree that a bypass filter would be far easier than the extra pump setup I mentioned. Putting together a parts list for turbo assemblies.​
Would a bypass setup give you enough oil volume for a turbo or two? As the filter got dirtier the flow would slow even more.

Keep in mind it will take a long time to filter all of the impurities out of that Detroit.
 
FirstRam said:
Would a bypass setup give you enough oil volume for a turbo or two? As the filter got dirtier the flow would slow even more.

Keep in mind it will take a long time to filter all of the impurities out of that Detroit.​
Working on figuring out the flow need. One turbo tag says 1.04 ml/sec and the other tag says 0.49 ml/sec. (0.0165 gal/min., 0.00774 gal/min.) Might stick a pressure sender between the turbos and filter(s). I'm putting BP and EGT senders on the manifolds, so might as well go the extra mile with more senders and gauges to keep an eye on everything. Wouldn't bother me to run more than one 1-2 micron filters in series if that would catch most everything and drop the flow and pressure down to an acceptable level.

The twins have ceramic ball bearings and a filter fitting on the oil inlets with warranty paint on them. I may ask Tom if the filters are restrictive enough to not need a separate restrictor. Even with tight filters, I feel like cleaning up Detroit oil could be a futile effort with the never-ending heaps of soot saturating everything. Maybe a few of the largest filters in parallel with a check valve on each that sends the oil on to the next filter after one has filled up.

Edit: looking up 1-2 micron oil filters brings up some aircraft stuff. Totally forgot about that. While waiting on lines tests and such at the Moberly, MO. airport, I would always stroll into the hangar to chill with a guy working on his single prop. Friggin' sweet billet boxer six running tight filtration. If parts and replacements are cheap enough, I'll do it just to give it a try. Running a separate standalone pump off the lower accessory drive may not cost much more, so the two ideas will be worth comparing.
 
CarterKaft said,

I think you would want to run a filter head with a bypass valve and switch. Run CAT filters and compatible head, super cheap found everywhere.

This filter group is what I was thinking. 174-6173 $150 includes 465-6502 filter $60 (aka 102-2828) has a 25 psi bypass valve and switch.

This is a ultra-high efficiency hydraulic filter so that may not be the right element at all for engine oil... The 25 psi bypass may be too low driving into a turbo restriction fittings but it seems more fool proof than a dedicated pump and drive.

This donaldson brochure should outline the options, I believe they are the OEM for CAT.

This thread screams "Scope Creep" but don't let me get you down. I'm just wondering if you are being honest with yourself about annual miles you plan to put on this thing?
 
CarterKaft said:
I think you would want to run a filter head with a bypass valve and switch. Run CAT filters and compatible head, super cheap found everywhere.

This filter group is what I was thinking. 174-6173 $150 includes 465-6502 filter $60 (aka 102-2828) has a 25 psi bypass valve and switch.

This is a ultra-high efficiency hydraulic filter so that may not be the right element at all for engine oil... The 25 psi bypass may be too low driving into a turbo restriction fittings but it seems more fool proof than a dedicated pump and drive.

This donaldson brochure should outline the options, I believe they are the OEM for CAT.

This thread screams "Scope Creep" but don't let me get you down. I'm just wondering if you are being honest with yourself about annual miles you plan to put on this thing?​
Much appreciated, man. I was picking through filters on Summit last night. $45-$80 for a filter and didn't find a mount with the right threads. The filters I came across leaned more towards hydraulics. With that, I know there's several filter heads for OE machinery to choose from and the filters have a lot of capacity.

In all honesty, I void warranties all the time and care little about the turbo warranty. I do think that a canister filter would do better than the fitting that the turbos came with. A call to NRE is in order.

Scope creep is correct lol. I've been feeling it since around page thirty. Things have changed, life has been a little upside down, and our travel plans could go either way by the time we get rolling. Regardless, we won't even be putting a tenth of the annual mileage on this that these types of buses normally see in their service lives. I'm all for the filter setup as soon as I/we pin down the right parts.
 
https://www.gis-store.net/product.sc?productId=286

1-3/8-12 filter thread on the Donaldson head. Don't know the gasket seat OD or ID yet. WIX 51615, 1 micron, 4.2"x3.735" gasket, 1-1/2-16 thread and $25 on Rock Auto. Can't find a fitting on Summit that has the correct threads to mount the WIX to the Donaldson head, nor a filter mount with 1-1/2" thread. I'll browse Donaldson filters for 1-2 micron tomorrow and call them about the gasket seat.

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DE Jeeper said,

I just put a 1-1/4 in and out filter on out roll back project. Got it from the local plow guy for $35 with filter. Its 25 micron so it may not be the correct filer 4 u. No name or number on the filter head. The filter is a Buyers. Maybe this helps?

881.jpg
 
CarterKaft said,
JNHEscher said:
https://www.gis-store.net/product.sc?productId=286

1-3/8-12 filter thread on the Donaldson head. Don't know the gasket seat OD or ID yet. WIX 51615, 1 micron, 4.2"x3.735" gasket, 1-1/2-16 thread and $25 on Rock Auto. Can't find a fitting on Summit that has the correct threads to mount the WIX to the Donaldson head, nor a filter mount with 1-1/2" thread. I'll browse Donaldson filters for 1-2 micron tomorrow and call them about the gasket seat.​
What are trying to do? Run the filter designed for the head? Mixing threads is sketchy, galling is the biggest concern. That filter head has the bypass switch to let you know the filter is plugged, much more important than visual indicator IMO.

The CAT filter I referenced is a P165332 Duramax filter, correct thread etc. but the CAT part # is cheaper...
P165332
 
DE Jeeper said:
I just put a 1-1/4 in and out filter on out roll back project. Got it from the local plow guy for $35 with filter. Its 25 micron so it may not be the correct filer 4 u. No name or number on the filter head. The filter is a Buyers. Maybe this helps?​
Anything helps. A 1-2 micron lube filter if first and foremost. Then find a head/mount that has the same filter thread or a thread that matches a male-male fitting that I can find on Summit racing to adapt to the filter, along with a gasket seat that will accept the o-ring size on the filter.

Wife and kids just left for errands so I've got a little time to boogie on the bus. Getting that rear frame and eighth floor sheet down is priority before Sunday night. We head out for OKC Monday morning.
 
CarterKaft said:
What are trying to do? Run the filter designed for the head? Mixing threads is sketchy, galling is the biggest concern. That filter head has the bypass switch to let you know the filter is plugged, much more important than visual indicator IMO.

The CAT filter I referenced is a P165332 Duramax filter, correct thread etc. but the CAT part # is cheaper...
P165332​
Yeah, I dig the head with the switch and indicator. I still need to go through filters to find one in the 1-2 micron range that fits that Donaldson head.

A head with female threads would be great. I used a Earl's mount for the fuel filter and an aluminum male-male adapter. That makes it simple to replace the threads that the filters spin onto if needed.
 
CarterKaft said,
JNHEscher said:
Yeah, I dig the head with the switch and indicator. I still need to go through filters to find one in the 1-2 micron range that fits that Donaldson head.

A head with female threads would be great. I used a Earl's mount for the fuel filter and an aluminum male-male adapter. That makes it simple to replace the threads that the filters spin onto if needed.​
The wix you linked is 4um as is the CAT filter.

I can find a true two micron fuel filter head but if you get that small soot loading will increase rapidly.
 
CarterKaft said:
The wix you linked is 4um as is the CAT filter.

I can find a true two micron fuel filter head but if you get that small soot loading will increase rapidly.​
Quick loading is what leans me towards the standalone system and what kindled the separate system idea to begin with. Still need a filter and some sort or pressure restrictor, but nowhere near as much loading and no soot at all. There's diesel nasty, and then there's Detroit two-stroke nasty. Around $50 for a small displacement pump that bolts up.

That Insane Diesel three-stage filter looks pretty cool. $800 for their setup to suit the 8V92 capacity, though. I could do my own three-stage filtration at a reasonable cost. The volume of soot filling the filters is what concerns me the most.
 
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