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MCI 102-C3 coach to RV - Electrical System

87manche said:
I certainly wouldn't re engineer anything to make more of them fit.

the other thing to consider is that batteries are only going to gain capacity. So in five years when you replace those ones, you'll just magically get more amp hours.​
So true. I often look at my dads collection of vinyl and compare it to my music collection on an SD card that holds six times what he has in the palm of my hand. Batteries are progressing similarly.
 
bigun said:
Ah but where is the pleasure of looking at the Album cover while the record is playing on your SD card?​
That and daydreaming about how a group of real individuals mastered their instruments and collaborated in sequence for minutes at a time to get it all in one shot. The days.
 
Temp floor in so maybe there won't be so much snow and dirt blowing in. Most of the snow has melted out and should be all gone by tomorrow afternoon. Back to assembling conduits and battery trays so I can put the real floor down.

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https://youtu.be/meUD10D9pdQ

Worth sharing here. When we started off with designing the PV array and power bank, the responses were alike. "You can't run that much." "RV's never do that." "Just run your generator." "By my calculations, that is impossible." - that was lead acid calculations, btw. This is the most I've ever seen Marc talk in one video. He looks excited. The fact that six Battle Born BB10012's is only half of what we can house is pretty sweet.

I didn't jump on the Victron bandwagon. They really took off with off-grid systems for mobile applications. At first, I was comparing them to Schneider and found that not a single Victron model would fit where I wanted the inverters to go. The cable routing also created difficulties. So far, the Schneider 4024 is a dead on fit and two can be daisy chained for higher power. If I need more, I can just parallel off the battery bank to operate a second, dedicated inverter bank.
 
Collected a few goods in town. More 610-308 wheel studs from O'Really's, some washers at Fastenal to take up the gap between the stud head and battery post, nylon spacer for seating said studs without gouging the brass posts, and two bars of 1/4"x1"x14" C110 copper at Stoner Metals (6061dude on ebay) to make bus bars with. The copper is $33 on Ebay. I was pleasantly surprised to find that walk-in price was $23.

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I started digging up info on combining charge controllers with inverters and lithium batteries again and began to have serious doubts about the Schneider inverter charging feature. All good, I think.

This had me wondering how I could control the charging parameters -

"Which Lithium Ion batteries are suitable for Conext SW/XW+ battery based inverters?

The Conext SW/XW+ battery based inverters support out of the box ONLY LiOn batteries which are direct replacements for lead acid batteries.
Examples of LiOn batteries which are direct replacements for lead acid batteries include SimpliPhi Power (Lithium Ferrous Phosphate - LFP), Ojai Energy Systems, GSB and Lithionics
The Conext SW/XW+ battery setting LiOn is applicable for these batteries.

Other LiOn batteries which require their own BMS to monitor each individual battery cell in real time are NOT supported out of the box. The LiOn batteries BMS will need to be capable and programmed by the installer to communicate back to the Conext SW/XW+ to the Conext ComBox through the RS-485 Modbus connection. The ComBox shall keep a translation table between Xanbus ID's and Modbus addresses. The installer will need to develop their own Modbus scripts to communicate with the Conext SW/XW+

IMPORTANT NOTE: The Conext Battery Monitor is not suitable for Lithium Ion batteries as noted in the installation manual."



I found that there is supposed to be a "Custom" battery setting in the menu of the System Control Panel. Just have to call Schneider to confirm all this. I'll have to post my own video of programming the SCP for the Battle Born batteries since there is no such explanation of this anywhere on the internet that I can find.

More: I was given the opportunity to talk with Ben at the AltE store today. We went over all the components I would be using and their compatibility. All is a go. All I need to add is the Schneider SCP.

Got some user input, as well. A full-timer running Schneider and lithium.:
It works pretty well, but has some quirks and the documentation / tech support is not very helpful. Biggest issues seem to be when plugged into 110, either on a 30A or 15A outlet. They don’t tell you straight out, but load shaving limit is 15A on 110, even if you are on a 30A. Also if run a large load on the opposite phase to the incoming phase only, it seems hard on the unit and it eventually freaks out. For example the incoming 110 is on black, and you have a 1000W heater running on red, we’ve had it start rebooting and interrupting power before morning. Same heater plugged into black all night is no problem. Big loads on both red and black have been no problem. Same heater on red when we are on battery, no problem. So it seems specific to however they are transferring the power from the incoming phase to the opposite output phase. All of which they don’t give any guidance on.

But overall it has worked really well, particularly considering we are using it on a 64V lithium battery that is right at the top end of its rated specs.
 
Changing up to parallel 24-volt. Less cabling mess and no imbalance to ever deal with. The BB5024's are the exact same case profile, so they mount just the same with a little flip or two to route cables. I dug out a few battery tray parts to get started on that again. Might be able to strip some unistrut and tack it in tomorrow.


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avistar23 said,

I work on offgrid power / own a solar contracting buisness every day of the week, and in my opinion outback inverters will make you much happier and all charging parameters are easily setup. I know Ben from alte and speak to him regularly, hes a good guy and can help alot.
 
avistar23 said:
I work on offgrid power / own a solar contracting buisness every day of the week, and in my opinion outback inverters will make you much happier and all charging parameters are easily setup. I know Ben from alte and speak to him regularly, hes a good guy and can help alot.​
A good friend of mine that owns and operates a solar install business uses Outback a lot. Definitely a good brand. I had spent quite some time researching each component of our future electrical system. Landed on the Schneider because if its many features including the split phase output built into a single unit. I do love me some 240.

Ben had no words of caution in regards to the combination I'm assembling and I got Schnieder's better manuals to load last night. All should be well and I couldn't be happier with the physical arrangement of the Conext SW's compared to any other option. The grid tie problems have their workarounds. We intend to be fully off-grid as much as possible anyway, although I am setting everything up to be able to hook to municipal supply as a supplement because I like the idea of having multiple sources rather than relying on one. The new house, for example. Exclusively electric, and the power goes out every damn day.
 
CarterKaft said,

The Victron stuff really looks like the Apple of solar/rv electronics.

As much as I was bucking it I am pretty much sold on all their products for now.

I am really interested in a Winston/Thundersky lithium battery bank with a 123/smartBMS.
 
CarterKaft said:
The Victron stuff really looks like the Apple of solar/rv electronics.

As much as I was bucking it I am pretty much sold on all their products for now.

I am really interested in a Winston/Thundersky lithium battery bank with a 123/smartBMS.​
Agree. The killer for me is their elevated cost for a number of features I have no need or desire for. That and no matter what model I use that has enough grunt, I have to cut into the rear bay wall and build a recessed pocket to fit them. Creating 240 volts with Victron also requires stacked inverters and a transformer, which isn't a deal breaker, but a major consideration.

Keeping in mind that I'm sticking with the drive axle wheel tub area for intrinsic safety and the bonus of utilizing all that dead space that puts the power bank weight right over the drive axle, I have space constraints that have more or less worked out perfectly for this. I also have a growing concern for all the people filming their battery bank locations that are now filled with several thousand dollars worth of lithium housed right behind an exterior door made of fiberglass. At some point, these are bound to be a niche market for thievery.
 
Here I go again lol. Sometimes the right idea takes a while to culminate. CAD keeps your sanity intact. Same sheet of paper for months.

As shown in previous pictures, I've had a longitudinal row of batteries bunched up to a transverse pair in order to maximize the power density of the compartment. There is a bit of fawkery involved in routing cables around batteries and under tracks to achieve a bank that is easy to service and has equal length cabling. Went out to the bus last night to look at what it would take to open up more room to stack all the batteries longitudinally for consistent cable routing.

Turns out, I get another 29" to shove more batteries into. I am boxing in all the overhang over the engine bay anyway because it will be more dead space exposed to exterior temperatures and nearly impossible to reach, making installing anything else in there quite useless. This opens up room for 8 batteries per side. I called Battle Born today about paralleling 16 of their 5024's and the guy said no problem. They have another customer that just paralleled 16 of them. Massive.

So, I've been messing around with the possibility of welding the battery tray tracks to the underside of the floor for a while now. Doing this keeps them out of the way and would not put any bending stress on the tracks if too much weight overhangs off them because the stationary track would stop at the door ledge. I think I'll be slicing one side of an outer track off and welding hangers to the inside tracks so that the rails still ride on the delrin rollers. A 5"ish gap in the outer rails to make room for a hinged door swing because I want to build a sealed, locking door there. Looking pretty cool now.

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I forgot to add that the 45MT or 50MT starter motor on our engine requires 333-375 amps. With as many Battle Born batteries as we have room for, there's more than enough current available to start the engine off the house batteries. I haven't decided yet if I really like the idea.
 
Took me quite a while to figure out a cable route that would work with these batteries stacked over each other because of the orientation of the posts. Nothing would fit no matter what I looked up. Going to order a few of the Quick Cable dual end lugs to test out. They're the best option I can find and have the benefit of keeping the full string connected even if I ever take any battery offline. 1/0 cable isn't necessary for this parallel connection, but that's the smallest size the lugs are offered for and the high 1/0 Class M ampacity is extra insurance against roasted cabling.

I'll need to use a bar as a mandrel to bend the cable lug ends inward to clear the battery and such. Hopefully they'll bend without fatiguing. I think they'll bend just right to capture the lug nuts pictured. I just happen to have 16 of those nuts from another build and they have a 19mm flange diameter and a nice length that won't require that I shove a socket in between the bent lug ends to install or retrieve the nut. The flanges should sit right in the 18.2mm recess in the lug flanges.

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CarterKaft said,

With 8 batteries and 100 amp per battery draw rating will 1/0 be enough for running a 3000w+ dual phase inverter at those cable chain lengths you will need?

At 5' with 1/0 and 800 amps I am coming up with a 6.55% drop.
4/0 still puts you at 3.27% drop.

I don't know what your inverter can pull but I bet you are going to want close to 4/0 for the inverter string supply.

Your calculations are well thought out so ignore me if I am messing this up.

edit: I was doing 12v calculations, I think you may have said you were going 24v or higher...
 
CarterKaft said:
With 8 batteries and 100 amp per battery draw rating will 1/0 be enough for running a 3000w+ dual phase inverter at those cable chain lengths you will need?

At 5' with 1/0 and 800 amps I am coming up with a 6.55% drop.
4/0 still puts you at 3.27% drop.

I don't know what your inverter can pull but I bet you are going to want close to 4/0 for the inverter string supply.

Your calculations are well thought out so ignore me if I am messing this up.

edit: I was doing 12v calculations, I think you may have said you were going 24v or higher...
Click to expand...​
Yup, 24 volts. The BB5024's are 50 amp with a 100 amp surge. The Schneider draws a max of 230 DC amps. The 1/0 Class M has a max of 260 amps. I can go 4/0. Planned to run 4/0 in the beginning.

Another edit: 24 volts is nominal. The bus runs at 27.5. I'll double check what the BB batteries output.

BB specs for the 5024:
•50 Amp Hour, 24 Volt Battery
•LiFePO4 Chemistry
•3000- 5000 Cycles*
•60 Amp Continuous Current
•100 Amp Surge Current (30 Seconds)
•1/2 second surge for higher loads
•Drop in Replacement for Lead Acid Batteries
•Acceptable Voltages 28.8 – 29.2 for bulk charging
•10 Year Warranty
•Designed and Assembled in the USA
•12.75 x 6.875 x 9 (L x W xH)
•29 lbs
 
Found four of my nuts. 18.65mm flange diameter. I'm going to try to get a pack of the cable lugs ordered tonight. Gotta be creative with finances when you're a stay-at-home dad and your wife ignores your requests to order parts. 3/0 is the largest I can get in the dual end lugs. The thickness of the lug flange and battery post comes to 0.412" and the nuts on the studs with a washer clamps down to 0.358". Plenty snug.

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Wasn't going to bother drawing the smaller DC components, but it's great to have them in the file for brainstorming and fitment checking. The bus bar and main DC load center are in the general vicinity of where I plan to mount them. Battery bank +'s directly to the C11000 bus, 2/0 pair headed to the Blue Sea 3116 breaker box to supply a 250 amp remote trip Midnite Solar breaker for each inverter, and hopefully a ganged DC breaker to match the 4/0 I plan to run up to the upstairs DC load center where all the smaller loads will distribute. Since there are six positions in the BS breaker box, I think I'll run a couple smaller breakers dedicated to the tool bay to keep the heavier gauge cables to a minimum in each conduit.

The cables between the battery banks and bus bar would be around 5' and there would be around another 3' total between the bus and each inverter. That's longer than I want to run. There's not much I can do to shorten the run, but I'll mess around with and think of something.

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CarterKaft said,
JNHEscher said:
Wasn't going to bother drawing the smaller DC components, but it's great to have them in the file for brainstorming and fitment checking. The bus bar and main DC load center are in the general vicinity of where I plan to mount them. Battery bank +'s directly to the C11000 bus, 2/0 pair headed to the Blue Sea 3116 breaker box to supply a 250 amp remote trip Midnite Solar breaker for each inverter, and hopefully a ganged DC breaker to match the 4/0 I plan to run up to the upstairs DC load center where all the smaller loads will distribute. Since there are six positions in the BS breaker box, I think I'll run a couple smaller breakers dedicated to the tool bay to keep the heavier gauge cables to a minimum in each conduit.

The cables between the battery banks and bus bar would be around 5' and there would be around another 3' total between the bus and each inverter. That's longer than I want to run. There's not much I can do to shorten the run, but I'll mess around with and think of something.​
I apologize, I couldn't find where you talked about the inverter. Are you running the inverter on 48v or 24v?
 
CarterKaft said:
I apologize, I couldn't find where you talked about the inverter. Are you running the inverter on 48v or 24v?​
24 volts. It's the Schneider Conext SW4024. 4,000 watt, 24 volt.
 
Grabbed $65 worth of hardware yesterday to throw some wheels on the welding table so I could roll it beside the bus. Got three out of four wheels pretty darn straight for eyeballing it. Two benefits; wind block from the strong storms out of the west and my welder leads reach out the bus so I'm not dragging it and the bottle in and out so frequently.

Spent much of Sunday dressing and welding battery track rails until the wind picked up pace and began blowing my gas away. My dad was cutting extremities off while I prepped and welded. This stuff goes so much faster when I have a second person to form an assembly line. We would be at again right now if it weren't for a strong wind out of the south. Go figure.

For the complete battery tracks, I need all the rails from for more cars. U Pull & Pay has five. Half price day on the 27th of this month that I will be taking advantage of.

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Home and rested. Cable lugs arrived today. I went with 2/0. As with all parts I order for test fitment, I have to compare the manufacturer's drawings to their actual product. More often than not, they dont match. On the upside, the wheel lugs are a direct fit into the recess. I should be able to make these fit.

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3/8" drive extension. How about that? Fits the 2/0 sleeve like it was machined for it.

Bent the first lug alone in the vice. Doing so squeezed the nut recess into an oval. Round two. Pressed the nut into the recess to help hold shape and began bending. I needed some sort of mandrel that would hold the flat down and allow me to bend the sleeves over at a particular crease line. A drop of square tube and a deep socket handily protruded at the same length to hold both the lug flat and the nut. Successfully made the first of the bends.

This turned out very well and the nut is indeed captured like I had hoped. A few quick spins of the nut with a socket wrench rubbed the paint off the flange ridge which allows the nut to spin freely while it is still captured in the lug. Super happy with that because I love snug fitment of electrical connections.

On another note, I do wish the image uploader would stop flipping my pictures 90 degrees counterclockwise. The PBB platform must be getting outdated.

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CarterKaft said,

The Inverter manual shows to use 3/0 cable.
Are these 2/0 cables just for the jumpers? Still using 3/0 to inverter from string end?
 
CarterKaft said:
The Inverter manual shows to use 3/0 cable.
Are these 2/0 cables just for the jumpers? Still using 3/0 to inverter from string end?​
I may not have detailed all that previously. The 2/0 is just for the battery interconnects. Bank to inverters can be 3/0. I may go 4/0 anyway. All DC cabling between the banks and inverters/distribution panels will be Class M. Color coded and printed text heat shrink for proper identification.

Link to where I've been purchasing my cable. They list ampacities. https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/welding-cable/
 
And for the evening, the driver's J-box again. I had to finish up tracing and pulling the last of the wires through the tire bay. Headlights, markers, horn, brake switches. I needed to make way for valve relocation. The rest of the pneumatic valves within the tire bay are likely to be mounted along the bulkhead. A much more organized routing done with DOT brake hose.

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