hey bud, all I said was fuck john deere and their terrible service model and that the IT nerds probably weren't in the union.
are these not facts?
slow your roll.
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John Deere workers on strike
- Thread starter Tin Roof
- Start date
are these not facts?
slow your roll.
Pony_Driver
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As an employer you don't have the right to dictate benefits to the company that hires and pays you. If their benefits suck go find another job. I've done it and moved states to do it. I hope RTR goes through, I also despise coercion whish is what a union is.
ConwayMuddy
Dis member
Radio this morning said something about jd. profits being up something like 60 percent the last year, and the CEO getting something like a 160 percent raise in that time...
Pony_Driver
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and?
DWT
Dirty White Trash
A $1000 iphone (that can be repaired by a civilian easily with readily available kits) Is the same as a $250,000 tractor? 🤦
No the heck it isn't and you know that's a terrible comparison. If we didn't have to call out some dweeb that barely passed the John Deere ag tech course at the local community college to throw parts at a piece of equipment that'd be neat but so many industries are going proprietary and it seems like big green is leading the way so naturally they're going to catch heat over it. It's not right for one or even a handful of big companies to change the way the entire industry operates.
In trucking we now have to deal with E logs, thanks to Warner. They pushed so hard because they have the power to do so and they've tried to force the smaller companies out of the business. Typical big ticket bullshit.
Trackerbacker(fvckvs)
Banned
this statement.....
And this statement, can't be one sentence. Either they are, or they aren't. Which is it?
Are you aware jd is squeezing small dealers out, in favor of multi location dealers, as in, no more john Smiths jd dealer and Jim Smith john deere dealer, now visit all 7 branches of van wall john deere and 13 Mccoy jd dealers
Pt_Ranger_v8
A dministrator
Doesn't make it right.
Deere is moving to this business model (buy to not own) because they can.
They should lose in the end, but who knows.
Also, found the fan boi in here. It's a fucking job man, not a living. just because they write your checks doesn't mean they own you.
ConwayMuddy
Dis member
I'm all for making some profit and not so much for unions. If the workers know these numbers, I can see why they'd be griping for a better contract, especially in this dazzling Biden economy.
krugford
Member
Percentages are funny in that they only tell part of the story. I looked up Deere's financial reports for the last 5 years. Deere's income for the first 9 months of the year dropped ~20% from 2019 to 2020. 2020 to 2021 shows a large increase year over year due to the drop in 2019 in what has otherwise been a steady increase in income.
Likewise, John May didn't become CEO until November 2019 and wasn't named Chairman until May 2020. No comment on executive pay, but the guy literally changed jobs and got a promotion in the time frame that percentage is being compared against.
I briefly skimmed through the tentative agreement posted on the UAW website. From what I can tell, with no personal knowledge on the details, is that the major hold-up appears to be a combination of the two tier wage system and the elimination of a pension for new hires. Personally, I think the two tier wage system is crap. You shouldn't be making less pay for the same job as the guy next to you, given similar experience/skill. As for pensions, those really need to go away. They have been nothing but a gross burden to companies over the last few decades. Stupid promises made by companies when times were good. Turns out, retiring after 30 years then living for another 30 years with a pension costs a lot more money than anybody cared to predict. They also have a history of evaporating when companies go bankrupt or reorganize. A 401k with a company match for new hires seems to be a much more stable solution moving forward, in my opinion. But it does require you to actually take responsibility for your own future via investment decisions and share some risk in a company match that's based on company performance.
I have a pension. You know what I'm doing? I'm planning my retirement assuming it, and social security, won't exist by the time I retire. That means I'm saving and investing now and will continue to do so for the next few decades until I call it quits.
Gravy
Red Skull Member
That's all well and good, but 5-10 years down the road that part maybe discontinued. Imagine buying a used peice of equipment and the tech telling you the software is no longer supported. You're left with buying new (good for deere) but the guy on a budget is screwed.
Hopefully the aftermarket will catch up and support these problems like it does in every market. Deere could potentially sue the aftermarket with government mandates not allowing modifications to oem equipment. Guess the problem would be government being involved in the free market in the end, but then the black market starts getting involved.
The company's providing tuning software got hit hard on violations. Yes, you own the vehicle but do you really?
Yes I'm aware of the dealership consolidation that has been happening since the 1960s. And no I'm not fond of vanwall or 21stcentury, or rdo, or whatever dealer chain you care to name. Its a shame small dealers aren't really supported anymore.
I willl make my other statement a bit more clear for you. Deere is not shoving the politically correct race shit at its employees. There have been no meetings, no classes, no lectures or policies that were directed at employees at the facilities I am a part of.
Ranger,
Yep, I'm the "fan boi" i guess. Grew up with Deere in the home, farm, and family. They write my checks now and I love my job. Can you say you enjoy yours? They don't own me. In fact, I've worked both sides of the ag industry fence....I used to work for Case.
Pony_Driver
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See the post immediately after yours, figures lie and liars figure. There is more to the story than what they were pointing to as there almost always is.
An expanding economy raises wags (real wages) while expanding benefits in a dwindling economy increases the economic burden on companies. Deere doesn't exist to make tractors, they exist to make money. If the employees cost too much they will become uncompetitive and go out of business and then they all lose their jobs. It's really quite simple.
let me guess, you sell deere equipment and/or parts
Last edited:
rockota
white collar hillbilly
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Iirc, Deere won a lawsuit about this already. Something about “owning” the hardware but subscribing to the software
speed bump
Red Skull Member
I think you will see lots of union negotiations go to strike this year and next unless the economy crashes. I know our plants union (boilermakers) has started making a list for when they go to negotiate next summer based on the companies Covid response and inflation.
Going back to the bitching about Deere software. Can you buy software? The complaints sound exactly Cat equipment but when I finally bought the software it was only like $1500 for the software and adapters and a $1000/yr subscription. Considering we can't get a cat mechanic out for less than $500 that seemed cheap as shit.
Going back to the bitching about Deere software. Can you buy software? The complaints sound exactly Cat equipment but when I finally bought the software it was only like $1500 for the software and adapters and a $1000/yr subscription. Considering we can't get a cat mechanic out for less than $500 that seemed cheap as shit.
no.
not even after they agreed too.
John Deere Fails to Uphold Right to Repair Agreement Signed in 2018
Back in 2018, John Deere struck a voluntary agreement in which it would provide manuals, training, and diagnostic software for tractors available to purchase by January 1, 2021. The company does not appear to have done so, or to have plans to do so in the near future.
YotaRedneckGirl
Well-known member
Props to you for one of the best discussions I've read in awhile and actually doing some research! Completely agree - percentages are SO easily to be manipulated to tell one side of the story. 83.2% of all percentages are made up ;)
2020 also brought a massive restructuring to Deere, which included early retirement buy-outs, some 1,500 salary jobs being eliminated and a massive reorg in the remaining positions that I have no doubt moved the profitability needle despite all the challenges of 2020/2021.
The two-tier wage system has been extremely difficult. The pay and benefit differences are mind-blowing and sometimes the haves vs. have-nots are only days in differences, depending on hire dates. One of the most challenging things for me, working in a union shop, is not being able to directly compensate or reward high-performing employees for individual performance. You can have more knowledge, skill, work ethic and drive than the person working next to you and still get paid the same. It does not foster competition, which I believe is necessary for the workplace.
I think so many hold on to the notion of pensions because they saw what the 1st tier employees gained from it, which was great, but really have become a thing of the past and to me, would be a very scary thing to bank my future on. I have a small pension and honestly I'm not even 100% sure how it's calculated, but it's something I maybe look at once a year and don't bank on it being there by the time I retire, so look at it being more of a bonus if it is available by then. I do feel for the new hires that will not have a pension, as it creates another divide, but at the same time they're coming in to a 401k program that is much higher than the previous matches.
Something scary that I have seen, is 2nd tier employees with less of a pension, that have not taken advantage of the 401k program and match over the length of their careers. In the last few years, 2 individuals that I've helped to set up their 401k's had 18 years of service in at that point and in their mid-50's.
In my opinion, I think the major hurdle in this contract is that employees expected to see a significant $/hr increase out of the chute. It has been a struggle to attract new wage talent to Deere, especially during a labor shortage, with the existing 7 month probation period before benefits kick in and other similar jobs in our area increasing their hourly wages to try and get employees in the door. Personally, I expected wages to go up more than what was proposed, but also figured that something else would have to give, like their current health insurance program that is the best that I have ever heard of. While the wages were not increased as much as people had hoped, they also did not lose anything, which is the biggest surprise to me. So, something has to give, right?
Poke
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Then tell your friends and family not to buy deere. Its a simple decision, nobody has to buy them. I own a Deere but I am not a loyal fan, it was the right price at the right time with the right implements, and I would buy it again. If I needed another one I would grab what ever big name tractor that I found in my price range that fit me needs. Same thing with the IH I owned, it was for sale and I wanted a garden tractor with a deck, so I got it.
Pony_Driver
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Key factors not recognized by many.
One of my key gripes about unions. They reward mediocrity and punish people with initiative.
They are eligible for "catch up" contributions. I hope they are able to make use of them.
"Total compensation" is a thing. People should look at their total package, not just their pay stubs. Don't forget that companies started offering "benefits" like insurance because the government put a cap on wages during WWII. Yet another government policy that is still with us and causing issues 80 years later.
speed bump
Red Skull Member
no.
not even after they agreed too.
John Deere Fails to Uphold Right to Repair Agreement Signed in 2018
Back in 2018, John Deere struck a voluntary agreement in which it would provide manuals, training, and diagnostic software for tractors available to purchase by January 1, 2021. The company does not appear to have done so, or to have plans to do so in the near future.www.extremetech.com
Just heard back from buddy who is a service manager for RDO. $1500 for the adapter and $3k/yr for the subscription. So spendy versus the cat stuff but available.
I hadn't heard that.
apparently the bad press earlier this year made that happen.
At least now there's an option.
ConwayMuddy
Dis member
The post you reference is excellent. I only caught the unexplained bit I posted. From reading posts from YotaRedneckGirl , it sounds like it's quite a mess of who's getting paid what and why.
Landslide
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Let’s just say the Dubuque works factory effects me. But don’t get me wrong, I have no beef with equipment owners working on their own equipment, that isn’t my battle. I’m just pointing out that Deere isn’t alone in their business practices.
I look at new vehicles today and wonder about kids learning to turn wrenches on them in their backyards like I did. Stuff was pretty basic back in the 60’s-70’s and easy to cut your teeth on. I think modern vehicles are creating a shortage of future mechanics or technicians. Maybe I’m wrong on that and I hope so.
Don’t worry too much about all this stuff, someday robots with AI will be running the show anyway
Pony_Driver
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They troubleshoot with a computer.Let’s just say the Dubuque works factory effects me. But don’t get me wrong, I have no beef with equipment owners working on their own equipment, that isn’t my battle. I’m just pointing out that Deere isn’t alone in their business practices.
I look at new vehicles today and wonder about kids learning to turn wrenches on them in their backyards like I did. Stuff was pretty basic back in the 60’s-70’s and easy to cut your teeth on. I think modern vehicles are creating a shortage of future mechanics or technicians. Maybe I’m wrong on that and I hope so.
Don’t worry too much about all this stuff, someday robots with AI will be running the show anyway
jimmy123456789
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The same shit that is happening to The agriculture industry that’s happening with cars. Need dealer level tools to program and calibrate modules and such. I’ve got news for you fuckers, it’s not going away. I’m sure guys whined about the switch from carbs to fuel injection saying it was the end of the average man being able to work on their own car, yet here we are 30+ years later still able to work on our cars, albeit with a few more tools in the box.
I’m all for right to repair but the notion that these modern machines should have the same “ease” of serviceability as older machines is fucking stupid. The way I see it you have two options, much like vehicles.
1. Buy older shit that doesn’t have all the bells and whistles and stop bitching.
2. Learn how to service the newer machines (OMG you might have to learn something/spend money
) and stop bitching. Bitching about it ain’t gonna change it.
Just like all the fuckers that whine and cry about the price of this or that, bitching ain’t gonna lower the price, either fork over the money or do without, but please shut the fuck up about “shits so expensive nowadays” because it’s horseshit.
clodhopper
Get off my lawn, punk!
The same shit that is happening to The agriculture industry that’s happening with cars. Need dealer level tools to program and calibrate modules and such. I’ve got news for you fuckers, it’s not going away. I’m sure guys whined about the switch from carbs to fuel injection saying it was the end of the average man being able to work on their own car, yet here we are 30+ years later still able to work on our cars, albeit with a few more tools in the box.
I’m all for right to repair but the notion that these modern machines should have the same “ease” of serviceability as older machines is fucking stupid. The way I see it you have two options, much like vehicles.
1. Buy older shit that doesn’t have all the bells and whistles and stop bitching.
2. Learn how to service the newer machines (OMG you might have to learn something/spend money
Bitching about it ain’t gonna change it.
Just like all the fuckers that whine and cry about the price of this or that, bitching ain’t gonna lower the price, either fork over the money or do without, but please shut the fuck up about “shits so expensive nowadays” because it’s horseshit.
You completely misunderstand the "right-to-repair" issue. Has nothing to do with laziness. Let me get you up to speed. JD refuses to allow access to on-board computers to allow people to troubleshoot and repair their own, or even for private repair shops to purchase the equipment to troubleshoot. Thereby forcing owners to transport unwieldy and oversized equipment back to a dealer for every little issue because the dealers have enough business that they cannot be bothered to make field visits. With thousands of sensors on a combine, you have to have access to the machine's computer to even start working through problems. The option is to jailbreak your combine and accept that you will never be able to take it to a JD servicer ever again.
aczlan
Good Morning!
Or spend $1500 on the adapter and $3000/year on the software as speed bump said and do it yourself.
If you are big enough to need it, it's probably cheaper than the service calls.
Aaron Z
jimmy123456789
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Yes I’m aware of that and I agree that there should be some kind of dealer approved scan tool that should be available to those who wish to service their own equipment, which they could charge a hefty premium for. Not having that option is complete bullshit I agree, IMO they can charge quite a bit and make some serious money by doing so.
Chrysler did a similar thing in 2017-18, making you pay for a yearly subscription fee (and either the factory scan tool or a Snap On one) in order to access anything besides the PCM, read codes and data, use bidirectional controls, etc. Autel had a workaround that involved bypassing the security gateway module, but that’s no longer viable as Chrysler fixed that in a flash update. It sucks, it’s bullshit, but it’s what I have to do in order to keep current with what’s out there. Another reason I despise CDJR.
Until John Deere decides (read: is forced to) to play ball, jail breaking or going to the dealer remains the only option. Or buying older equipment…but YMMV with that.
“I enjoy describing how things are, I have no interest in how they ought to be, and I certainly have no interest in fixing them. My motto: fuck hope.” - George Carlin
clodhopper
Get off my lawn, punk!
If you can get your hands on it. JD says it is available. Call around and you will quickly see that the $4500 of "tools" to fix yer shit is rarer than hen's teeth.
ThePanzerFuhrer
The Rock Breaker God
My local Indy heavy equipment guy has one of these.
Diesel Diagnostics Software for Commercial Trucks
I’m sure it’s not as good as the factory stuff but it gets the job done. Not sure if it can do the sensor calibration that all the really new stuff needs.
Diesel Diagnostics Software for Commercial Trucks
I’m sure it’s not as good as the factory stuff but it gets the job done. Not sure if it can do the sensor calibration that all the really new stuff needs.