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Java's F450 RV

Java230 said:
Good call guys. I'll figure out what is in and out of the cooler. Looks like more room for isolation valves there to me.

Think it will be ok to neck it down to 5/8 lines from 3/4?
Click to expand...
From a best practice point of view it might be better to leave the lines 3/4" for the longer path then neck to 5/8" where needed due to friction loss in long lines.
 
GLTHFJ60 said:
As long as you're not restricting the flow to the oil cooler, yes.
Click to expand...
There will be some resection, just no way around that going to 5/8"

CarterKraft said:
From a best practice point of view it might be better to leave the lines 3/4" for the longer path then neck to 5/8" where needed due to friction loss in long lines.
Click to expand...
Good point, I am sure I can neck it down right before the heater.


Now I am still a bit of a diesel noob.... In OD (I hate this trans wont hold 5th!!) around 2k rpms, when it gets a load (think hill) or you try to accelerate slowly enough that it wont drop to 5th, boost gets way high as do EGT's. Dropping into 5th raises the RPMs, boost goes down as does EGTs. I assume that is because its flowing more air?


Now does this mean it needs more fuel or more air when its in the OD situation?
 
Java230 said:
There will be some resection, just no way around that going to 5/8"


Good point, I am sure I can neck it down right before the heater.


Now I am still a bit of a diesel noob.... In OD (I hate this trans wont hold 5th!!) around 2k rpms, when it gets a load (think hill) or you try to accelerate slowly enough that it wont drop to 5th, boost gets way high as do EGT's. Dropping into 5th raises the RPMs, boost goes down as does EGTs. I assume that is because its flowing more air?


Now does this mean it needs more fuel or more air when its in the OD situation?
Click to expand...
Use reducing Ts or Wyes, so that the oil cooler has unrestricted flow. I would not restrict flow to the oil cooler, that screams bad idea to me.

For the OD situation, boost/EGTs increase as load on the engine increases, so that makes sense. Downshifting reduces load by increasing RPM, so boost/EGT dropping makes sense. Not a problem in my eyes, but if you wanted to reduce your EGTs, you would need more turbo or bigger intercooler.

IMO just let it downshift.
 
GLTHFJ60 said:
Use reducing Ts or Wyes, so that the oil cooler has unrestricted flow. I would not restrict flow to the oil cooler, that screams bad idea to me.

For the OD situation, boost/EGTs increase as load on the engine increases, so that makes sense. Downshifting reduces load by increasing RPM, so boost/EGT dropping makes sense. Not a problem in my eyes, but if you wanted to reduce your EGTs, you would need more turbo or bigger intercooler.

IMO just let it downshift.
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Well If I T or Wye in I don't think I will get any flow unless I add a pump? Seems like the coolant would take the path of least resistance?


It just doesn't want to downshift enough IMO. Lower EGTs would be good if its not going to downshift. So if your saying more turbo, does that mean its over fueling/rich? I was looking at the mishimoto stuff, but it isn't cheap. Not sure how much of a difference I would really see.

I am asking, because I am thinking of getting it tuned..... He seemed to think it needed more fuel if it was going high EGTs like that (unless I completely misunderstood what he was saying. It would be interesting to see what the current tune is doing also.
 
Java230 said:
Well If I T or Wye in I don't think I will get any flow unless I add a pump? Seems like the coolant would take the path of least resistance?


It just doesn't want to downshift enough IMO. Lower EGTs would be good if its not going to downshift. So if your saying more turbo, does that mean its over fueling/rich? I was looking at the mishimoto stuff, but it isn't cheap. Not sure how much of a difference I would really see.

I am asking, because I am thinking of getting it tuned..... He seemed to think it needed more fuel if it was going high EGTs like that (unless I completely misunderstood what he was saying. It would be interesting to see what the current tune is doing also.
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I don't think you want the heater in parallel it needs to be in series. I would try to avoid using the oil cooler circuit unless you can monitor your changes (good or bad) in EOT. The heater lines seem to be the safer bet but you might get the most advantage from the oil cooler return as mentioned.

A pump in the system would need to be a pretty decent pump to handle the temps/pressure.

Diesels are tricky, you can't really overfuel in conventional terms because the fuel is the RPM control not the air.
The air (turbo) responds to fuel energy (heat) and boost is created.

The turbo maps for your turbo(s) have a range that is "on the map" and a range where you are "under the charger" which would be my guess for where you are at that RPM range and heavy load.

You might improve this with more fuel, more air (turbo wheels or complete turbo) or timing changes.
I am no 6.4 expert not even really a novice on 6.4's.

I would just make sure you get a tuner that is used to tuning trucks that tow heavy. A lot of the wrong thing is not what you need at your weight and wind load.
 
CarterKraft said:
I don't think you want the heater in parallel it needs to be in series. I would try to avoid using the oil cooler circuit unless you can monitor your changes (good or bad) in EOT. The heater lines seem to be the safer bet but you might get the most advantage from the oil cooler return as mentioned.

A pump in the system would need to be a pretty decent pump to handle the temps/pressure.

Diesels are tricky, you can't really overfuel in conventional terms because the fuel is the RPM control not the air.
The air (turbo) responds to fuel energy (heat) and boost is created.

The turbo maps for your turbo(s) have a range that is "on the map" and a range where you are "under the charger" which would be my guess for where you are at that RPM range and heavy load.

You might improve this with more fuel, more air (turbo wheels or complete turbo) or timing changes.
I am no 6.4 expert not even really a novice on 6.4's.

I would just make sure you get a tuner that is used to tuning trucks that tow heavy. A lot of the wrong thing is not what you need at your weight and wind load.
Click to expand...

Yes agreed on the heater core being safer bet. Its probably going to be a marginal change there going to 5/8" also. I do watch coolant and oil temps pretty close. I get hot though going up passes.


I too am a diesel novice, all I have heard is don't throw timing at it.

So by not shifting, it adds more fuel=more heat=more boost. I guess that makes sense.

Maybe what I really need is a trans tune that will hold 5th more often. Not even sure how that is programmed.
 
Java230 said:
Yes agreed on the heater core being safer bet. Its probably going to be a marginal change there going to 5/8" also. I do watch coolant and oil temps pretty close. I get hot though going up passes.


I too am a diesel novice, all I have heard is don't throw timing at it.

So by not shifting, it adds more fuel=more heat=more boost. I guess that makes sense.

Maybe what I really need is a trans tune that will hold 5th more often. Not even sure how that is programmed.
Click to expand...

It's hard to say and I don't know enough about the 6.4 to know if the rods/bottom end will like full torque at lower than designed rpms.
If it is downshifting it is because it is out of the programmed fuel maps for the engine. That could be corrected by a tuner but I am not sure if that is desirable.

The engines peak torque rating is at 2000 rpm so if you start dropping much under that the engine will realize it is loosing the battle and will downshift to increase HP and Torque to start the cycle over again.

Here is a random 6.4 dyno chart off the web. It looks like from this chart they are fueling up high (Stock peak hp is at 3000rpm).
So there "street" tunes make less hp than stock at your rpms.
Most of the v8 diesels like to rev, keep them above 2k and they are happy.
The newest 6.7's are changing that with crazy gearing they are putting down 1050 ft lbs of torque at 1650 RPM.

1622564071437.png
 
Java230 said:
Maybe what I really need is a trans tune that will hold 5th more often. Not even sure how that is programmed.
Click to expand...
this.

think of it like this. You're filling the cylinder with an explosion, the explosion travels at a defined speed. The slower your piston is moving, the higher the pressures are going to be in the cylinder. more piston speed=lower cylinder pressures, and therefore temperatures.

There are people doing fummins conversions into these trucks, so someone has to have figured out the transmission tuning to use the ford transmission. I'd find the fummins guy and ask them what's up with transmission tuning.
 
87manche said:
this.

think of it like this. You're filling the cylinder with an explosion, the explosion travels at a defined speed. The slower your piston is moving, the higher the pressures are going to be in the cylinder. more piston speed=lower cylinder pressures, and therefore temperatures.

There are people doing fummins conversions into these trucks, so someone has to have figured out the transmission tuning to use the ford transmission. I'd find the fummins guy and ask them what's up with transmission tuning.
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Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. Sounds like keeping cylinder pressures down is a good thing also.

There are trans tunes out also. I just don't know how/what they monitor to know when to shift.

EDIT: FWIW I am running a GearboxZ +80hp tune. Just a canned one.

Anyone swapped to an alu rad on these?
 
yeah, cylinder pressures spike at low RPM high load.
it's bad for the rod bearings too.

lugging diesel engines is bad. It's always better to be near the redline than at 1500 RPM at WOT.
 
87manche said:
yeah, cylinder pressures spike at low RPM high load.
it's bad for the rod bearings too.

lugging diesel engines is bad. It's always better to be near the redline than at 1500 RPM at WOT.
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I am talking like 50% throttle at most probably. Any more than that and it gets way hot way fast. I don't beat on it. Try to stay under 1100 EGTS and 40 psi. But yes lugging is never good. I am right around 2k at 60-65
 
some of that may very well be tune related.
extra power is extra heat in a diesel.

I'm not familiar with the 6.4 specifically, but what does it spin to? My brothers 6.0 with a tow tune very much liked higher RPMs or the EGTs would climb rapidly above 1300 with 10K lbs behind it. like anything below 3 grand. Spin it and it was happy to pull the grade all day long at 1100.
 
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87manche said:
some of that may very well be tune related.
extra power is extra heat in a diesel.

I'm not familiar with the 6.4 specifically, but what does it spin to? My brothers 6.0 with a tow tune very much liked higher RPMs or the EGTs would climb rapidly above 1300 with 10K lbs behind it.
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3700 RPM's says the google.

And yes It gets hot if I hammer it in lower RPMs.

Think going up a pass, grade gets steeping, you roll a little more into the throttle just to keep pace up. If it doesn't down shift it can get hot unless you back off throttle. Or blip it to drop a gear, but then your gaining speed generally.
 
yeah, if the trans was a bit more aggressive on the downshifts in tow mode that seems like it would solve your problem entirely.

can you drop it a gear manually? Whenever we hit a grade in 6.0 truck we'd just pull it out of the OD on the column. PITA, but was way nicer to the engine.

I see that there were tunes from H&S, but now he's gifted that all to diesel conversion specialists.
might be worth a call to them to see what they can do. It's obviously possible.
 

SCT X4 w/ Custom transmission tuning 5r110 stock tuning

<h2> SCT X4:</h2> <p>The best of SCT in a simple hand held unit. In many circles SCT is regarded as one of the best performance tuners money can buy however we use them for a different purpose which is solely for transmission tuning. The SCT
www.dieselconversion.com www.dieselconversion.com

looks like an SCT box can load trans calibrations.
 
87manche said:
yeah, if the trans was a bit more aggressive on the downshifts in tow mode that seems like it would solve your problem entirely.

can you drop it a gear manually? Whenever we hit a grade in 6.0 truck we'd just pull it out of the OD on the column. PITA, but was way nicer to the engine.

I see that there were tunes from H&S, but now he's gifted that all to diesel conversion specialists.
might be worth a call to them to see what they can do. It's obviously possible.
Click to expand...

Yes exactly if trans held 5th better it would likely be a non issue. I run in tow/haul all the time. Column shift only has 3rd gear option.

87manche said:

SCT X4 w/ Custom transmission tuning 5r110 stock tuning

<h2> SCT X4:</h2> <p>The best of SCT in a simple hand held unit. In many circles SCT is regarded as one of the best performance tuners money can buy however we use them for a different purpose which is solely for transmission tuning. The SCT
www.dieselconversion.com www.dieselconversion.com

looks like an SCT box can load trans calibrations.
Click to expand...
I believe the H&S does also? I would like to find an old mini maxx as I have all the original spartan tunes also, just no way to load them!
 
Java230 said:
Yes exactly if trans held 5th better it would likely be a non issue. I run in tow/haul all the time. Column shift only has 3rd gear option.


I believe the H&S does also? I would like to find an old mini maxx as I have all the original spartan tunes also, just no way to load them!
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some place in canada selling them?

www.minimaxxtuners.com

H&S Mini Maxx Tuner | SHIPS FEDEX 2 DAY AIR! | Official Mini Maxx

2008 - 2015 FORD POWERSTROKE | 2007.5 - 2012 DODGE CUMMINS | 2007.5- 2014 CHEVY DURAMAX APPLICATIONS 250/350/450 Ford Powerstrokes. 2500/3500 Dodge Cummins. 2500/3500 Chevy Duramax.
www.minimaxxtuners.com www.minimaxxtuners.com
 
SCT boxes have a finite number of "locks" before they're useless. Aka they can only ever be used on like 5 different trucks. Be wary of that when buying used, have read of people buying used SCTs that are used up and useless.

Tow/Haul mode locks it out of OD right? Being a box truck, just hit that on steep grades to force it to downshift? IIRC your gross is like 15k, which would be like my F550 towing/hauling 6000# of stuff.
 
GLTHFJ60 said:
SCT boxes have a finite number of "locks" before they're useless. Aka they can only ever be used on like 5 different trucks. Be wary of that when buying used, have read of people buying used SCTs that are used up and useless.

Tow/Haul mode locks it out of OD right? Being a box truck, just hit that on steep grades to force it to downshift? IIRC your gross is like 15k, which would be like my F550 towing/hauling 6000# of stuff.
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I think the H&S can be locked as well. There is a company that sells "unlock codes" tho. But it needs to be cheap used to make up for it if needed.

Nope still in OD (according to my monitor). I believe it just locks up the TQ faster. It does downshift nicely on downhill and braking. They got that part right. Yeah I am 14500-15k ish. Last weighed was 14240, but I wasn't quite done with the build out.
 
I heard through the grapevine that the Mishimoto stuff is rebranded china junk... no proof though on that maybe do your research.

Maybe compare some pix.

Amazon.com: CoolingCare Radiator for 2008 2009 2010 Ford F250 F350 F450 F550 6.4L Powerstroke Diesel Pickup, All Aluminum 4 Row Core : Automotive

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www.dieselpowerproducts.com

CSF 7062 Heavy Duty Aluminum Replacement Radiator 08-10 6.4L Ford Powerstroke

Check out the deal on CSF 7062 Heavy Duty Aluminum Replacement Radiator 08-10 6.4L Ford Powerstroke at Diesel Power Products
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6.4 Powerstroke Radiator for sale | eBay

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CarterKraft said:
I heard through the grapevine that the Mishimoto stuff is rebranded china junk... no proof though on that maybe do your research.

Maybe compare some pix.

Amazon.com: CoolingCare Radiator for 2008 2009 2010 Ford F250 F350 F450 F550 6.4L Powerstroke Diesel Pickup, All Aluminum 4 Row Core : Automotive

Buy CoolingCare Radiator for 2008 2009 2010 Ford F250 F350 F450 F550 6.4L Powerstroke Diesel Pickup, All Aluminum 4 Row Core: Radiators - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
www.amazon.com
www.dieselpowerproducts.com

CSF 7062 Heavy Duty Aluminum Replacement Radiator 08-10 6.4L Ford Powerstroke

Check out the deal on CSF 7062 Heavy Duty Aluminum Replacement Radiator 08-10 6.4L Ford Powerstroke at Diesel Power Products
www.dieselpowerproducts.com
www.ebay.com

6.4 Powerstroke Radiator for sale | eBay

Get the best deals for 6.4 Powerstroke Radiator at eBay.com. We have a great online selection at the lowest prices with Fast & Free shipping on many items!
www.ebay.com
Click to expand...

They are certainly Chinese, but have a pretty big presence and a lifetime warranty (which you do have to ship back... I think) but supposed to be decent. Not a ton more than the Ebay brand which likely has zero support.
 
CarterKraft said:
I heard through the grapevine that the Mishimoto stuff is rebranded china junk... no proof though on that maybe do your research.
Click to expand...
I've read the same numerous times over the last year or so. Some failures popping up, but nothing serious, I don't think.
Java230 said:
They are certainly Chinese, but have a pretty big presence and a lifetime warranty (which you do have to ship back... I think) but supposed to be decent. Not a ton more than the Ebay brand which likely has zero support.
Click to expand...
Got one in my 6.0 that has been holding up very well. A PO had it put in after the factory rad failed. Not sure that I really see any improvement out of it. My truck still builds up heat very quickly on hotter days. I can't find much of anything that isn't from China anymore. Even the OE oil filter cap that I got from Napa in a Motorcraft box says CHINA on it. Mishimoto has been doing well for quite a while. No complaints from me.
 
JNHEscher said:
I've read the same numerous times over the last year or so. Some failures popping up, but nothing serious, I don't think.

Got one in my 6.0 that has been holding up very well. A PO had it put in after the factory rad failed. Not sure that I really see any improvement out of it. My truck still builds up heat very quickly on hotter days. I can't find much of anything that isn't from China anymore. Even the OE oil filter cap that I got from Napa in a Motorcraft box says CHINA on it. Mishimoto has been doing well for quite a while. No complaints from me.
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Thanks, If its not really an improvement, I don't see it being worth the $ then!
 
Java230 said:
I am talking like 50% throttle at most probably. Any more than that and it gets way hot way fast. I don't beat on it. Try to stay under 1100 EGTS and 40 psi. But yes lugging is never good. I am right around 2k at 60-65
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Under 1100? Why? Depending on who you ask, 1200-1400 is pretty safe depending on how long the grade is. These dpf equipped trucks are designed to handle some heat.

Also, it's not an in line 6, pulling grades at 2k RPM is dumb, down shift and the the rpms cool the engine down.

I would not recommend the Mishimoto i/c either. Guy I know went through 2 on his 6.4. I just put a cfs on my 7.3. If it fails, at least it was cheap :laughing:
 
CarterKraft said:
I would bet the largest improvement is not having chicken shit crimped on plastic tanks.
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So not worth the $ until the end caps fail....

YotaAtieToo said:
Under 1100? Why? Depending on who you ask, 1200-1400 is pretty safe depending on how long the grade is. These dpf equipped trucks are designed to handle some heat.

Also, it's not an in line 6, pulling grades at 2k RPM is dumb, down shift and the the rpms cool the engine down.

I would not recommend the Mishimoto i/c either. Guy I know went through 2 on his 6.4. I just put a cfs on my 7.3. If it fails, at least it was cheap :laughing:
Click to expand...
I am trying to baby the engine! 1100 sustained gets the oil and coolant hot real quick. One pass I run all the time I hit 220 coolant 230 oil by the top usually....

It doesn't downshift that is the issue. Unless I want to try to be gaining speed up the pass. This is making me think trans tune to hold 5th faster is what I need.

Hmmm blowing the IC apart or something? I don't know that anyone else makes one really? I see these, but likely just ebay rebrands
www.smedingdiesel.com

Smeding Diesel 2008-10 Ford 6.4L Powerstroke Intercooler

Direct fit for the 6.4L Powerstroke Lowers AIT's 21% 50% less pressure drop than factory Installs in 30 minutes All-aluminum cast end tanks Bar-and-plate core 18% thicker than stock 20% larger core volume than factory Reduces turbo stress and extends life
www.smedingdiesel.com
 
Java230 said:
So not worth the $ until the end caps fail....
Click to expand...

Hard to say, if you are not far from home and getting back with no boost or coolant is not a big deal.
Java230 said:
I am trying to baby the engine! 1100 sustained gets the oil and coolant hot real quick. One pass I run all the time I hit 220 coolant 230 oil by the top usually....

It doesn't downshift that is the issue. Unless I want to try to be gaining speed up the pass. This is making me think trans tune to hold 5th faster is what I need.

Hmmm blowing the IC apart or something? I don't know that anyone else makes one really? I see these, but likely just ebay rebrands
www.smedingdiesel.com

Smeding Diesel 2008-10 Ford 6.4L Powerstroke Intercooler

Direct fit for the 6.4L Powerstroke Lowers AIT's 21% 50% less pressure drop than factory Installs in 30 minutes All-aluminum cast end tanks Bar-and-plate core 18% thicker than stock 20% larger core volume than factory Reduces turbo stress and extends life
www.smedingdiesel.com
Click to expand...

I mean really though 220 coolant is not that hot for pulling grades and 230 is definitely in the normal range.
I agree with not pushing hard but lower engine RPM at higher load IS harder than more RPM at lighter load.
 
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