Is the Non-Comp ARB for Ford 9" Really That Weak?

[94toytruck]

I have a Detroit and it'll lock up if you're still in 4wd and just yank the cutting brake. I kinda pump my cutting brake to keep it from fully locking and it helps a good bit. I have a Toyota case so no front digs however with no rear driveline it seems to dig fine.

 

[Sean]

I have a Detroit and it'll lock up if you're still in 4wd and just yank the cutting brake. I kinda pump my cutting brake to keep it from fully locking and it helps a good bit. I have a Toyota case so no front digs however with no rear driveline it seems to dig fine.

So, IYO....if you had front dig capability, you think the Detroit (or Grizzly in my case) would work fine with cutting brakes once the rear was disengaged?

I'm mostly concerned with situations like this: From about 8:12 when he grabs the cutting brake to 8:22 where he's effectively in 3WD since the rear is still engaged but he's pivoting off the one brake locked tire. Not sure an auto locker or spooled rear diff would allow this.....

Anyone mind taking 10-15 seconds and watching the video to give me their opinion? TIA!

 

[Tech Tim]

It's funny that another of people like to stop to engage their locker, shift into 4hi, ect. I've always found that doing it while rolling at slow speeds works better especially turning slightly.

Yes, you can lock your Air Locker in while moving, you just want the tires to be at the same speed so the differential gears are not moving. I've even locked them in a 40 mph (for testing purposes) and have had no issues.

For people who don't get it, I always recommend stopping their rig to engage the locker.

Awesome that you and Spidertrax made a few batches of them! I may have to ask them if they still have the drawings and if they have interest in doing a small run of them.

They may, if not, let me know, I'll check to see about getting another run made up.

Funny enough I was just digging through the parts I got with them looking for the air collars and found the previous owner gave me a spare lock collar, win.

I have one of the air collars, and I find your statement on locking delay very intriguing, this one was definitely overcompressed and heavily restricted flow through the ID.

There you go, the smoking gun. This is the number one reason why people were having problems with the 9" Air Locker.

So looking around, now that Yukon no longer makes a Zip for the 35 spline 9".....it doesn't seem like there are any other selectable options out there other than ARB.

Beginning to wonder if I should just go with a spool in the rear too (portals/4wheel steer).

I wanted the selectable in the rear to be able to more effectively use the rear cutting brakes.

If you want selectable, go selectable. I think they are the best route, once your learn to drive with them, you can do so much. it's not a black and white open or locked, there is a hug gray area of locking and unlocking for what is needed. Add a cutting brake in there and it's just wow.

Don't let those pics scare you off, there are thousands of those 9" Air Lockers out there running just fine.

Install it (or have it installed) correctly, give it 150+ psi and change out the oil occasionally and you will get a long life out of it.

 

[Tech Tim]

So, IYO....if you had front dig capability, you think the Detroit (or Grizzly in my case) would work fine with cutting brakes once the rear was disengaged?

I'm mostly concerned with situations like this: From about 8:12 when he grabs the cutting brake to 8:22 where he's effectively in 3WD since the rear is still engaged but he's pivoting off the one brake locked tire. Not sure an auto locker or spooled rear diff would allow this.....

Anyone mind taking 10-15 seconds and watching the video to give me their opinion? TIA!

I can't say how that would work with an auto-locking diff, but it is easy with a selectable locker.

 

[Sean]

Yes, you can lock your Air Locker in while moving, you just want the tires to be at the same speed so the differential gears are not moving. I've even locked them in a 40 mph (for testing purposes) and have had no issues.

For people who don't get it, I always recommend stopping their rig to engage the locker.




They may, if not, let me know, I'll check to see about getting another run made up.




There you go, the smoking gun. This is the number one reason why people were having problems with the 9" Air Locker.





If you want selectable, go selectable. I think they are the best route, once your learn to drive with them, you can do so much. it's not a black and white open or locked, there is a hug gray area of locking and unlocking for what is needed. Add a cutting brake in there and it's just wow.

Don't let those pics scare you off, there are thousands of those 9" Air Lockers out there running just fine.

Install it (or have it installed) correctly, give it 150+ psi and change out the oil occasionally and you will get a long life out of it.

I really appreciate the insight since obviously, you'd know. So, provided I'm stopped or at the very least traveling slow speed/straight so the differential gears aren't moving, I should avoid "crash locking" the diff?

I've set up gears/lockers in my D60s in the past. While I enjoyed learning how and haven't had any issues with them since install, I had to spend a whole weekend doing it and there was a lot of back and forth and cussing (as well as help from PBB posting images of the patterns and getting input about which direction to go) that I'd planned to avoid by simply ordering up all 4 diffs from ECGS with their 5 year warranty. Hopefully they know better than to crush the copper air line.

I don't doubt ARB would be the most capable option....it's just that I now question going with the non-comp model since it's pretty clear the engagement on the locking collar on this model is a bit lacking.

Does the RD99CE have markedly more engagement? Sounds like the best, but most expensive solution, if it does...is to get the comp model. But again, that begs the question: why doesn't ARB just make it the standard 9" model unless the materials are unobtainium/expensive.

 

[Tech Tim]

I really appreciate the insight since obviously, you'd know. So, provided I'm stopped or at the very least traveling slow speed/straight so the differential gears aren't moving, I should avoid "crash locking" the diff?

Yes, avoid crash locking any selectable locker.

The older 1st gen Air Lockers (old 3 pc style) would handle quite a bit of crash locking due to their engagement and how the teeth on the side gear were shaped with ramps. But you were still shock loaded all the gears, so crash locking would still be bad.

Does the RD99CE have markedly more engagement? Sounds like the best, but most expensive solution, if it does...is to get the comp model. But again, that begs the question: why doesn't ARB just make it the standard 9" model unless the materials are unobtainium/expensive.

I've never been deep inside the RD99CE or the RD249CE, those were released after I got out of the racing scene. I know the 99 inside and out as I helped many race teams make those things live with the abuse they were getting.

Though I would love to get inside those models to do an in-depth comparison.

I know they have forged gears, though I think all (or most) Air Lockers have forged gears these days. I believe the 99CE cases are chromoly, standard Air Lockers are a cast steel. Then they've done other stuff inside to increase strength and support, so the cost is higher to produce. Now is it twice the price to produce or is ARB just charging an extra premium for an extra premium product? IDK, I would guess it is a bit of both.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Yes, you can lock your Air Locker in while moving, you just want the tires to be at the same speed so the differential gears are not moving. I've even locked them in a 40 mph (for testing purposes) and have had no issues.

For people who don't get it, I always recommend stopping their rig to engage the locker.

I can understand that, se people will just hear "you dont have to stop" and potentially engage them when spinning 1 tire at 25 mph

with say a Toyota or samurai tcase, you can really feel the teeth engage when going from 2 hi to 4hi. The shift collar design is very similar to the arb. I guess years of shifting those i learned that usually moving slowly works better than dead stop.

I'm talking about very low speeds with the locker, off the throttle.

 

[Sean]

Yes, avoid crash locking any selectable locker.

The older 1st gen Air Lockers (old 3 pc style) would handle quite a bit of crash locking due to their engagement and how the teeth on the side gear were shaped with ramps. But you were still shock loaded all the gears, so crash locking would still be bad.




I've never been deep inside the RD99CE or the RD249CE, those were released after I got out of the racing scene. I know the 99 inside and out as I helped many race teams make those things live with the abuse they were getting.

Though I would love to get inside those models to do an in-depth comparison.

I know they have forged gears, though I think all (or most) Air Lockers have forged gears these days. I believe the 99CE cases are chromoly, standard Air Lockers are a cast steel. Then they've done other stuff inside to increase strength and support, so the cost is higher to produce. Now is it twice the price to produce or is ARB just charging an extra premium for an extra premium product? IDK, I would guess it is a bit of both.

It's closer to 3X the price.... ~2400 vs. $850 at ECGS if you're having them build your 3rd.

I guess you get what you pay for.....lol.

 

[06h3]

I've set up gears/lockers in my D60s in the past. While I enjoyed learning how and haven't had any issues with them since install, I had to spend a whole weekend doing it and there was a lot of back and forth and cussing (as well as help from PBB posting images of the patterns and getting input about which direction to go) that I'd planned to avoid by simply ordering up all 4 diffs from ECGS with their 5 year warranty. Hopefully they know better than to crush the copper air line.

I think having someone setup a 3rd like ECGS isn’t a terrible idea. I’m sure your capable of doing it yourself and you would then know it’s correct but I’ll over emphasize, install must be perfect.

I was wheeling yesterday and this guy had air locker issues in my 60 front and 14 bolt rear yesterday. 2 years ago I’d be thinking to myself, fuck those air lockers. My e locker works perfect…..but after breaking many selectables including said e locker and now running an ARB I said, who knows what the previous owner did in terms of install (he bought the rig used) and how many times he crash locked it. It was probably a less then ideal install just slapping shit together

 

[Sean]

I think having someone setup a 3rd like ECGS isn’t a terrible idea. I’m sure your capable of doing it yourself and you would then know it’s correct but I’ll over emphasize, install must be perfect.

I was wheeling yesterday and this guy had air locker issues in my 60 front and 14 bolt rear yesterday. 2 years ago I’d be thinking to myself, fuck those air lockers. My e locker works perfect…..but after breaking many selectables including said e locker and now running an ARB I said, who knows what the previous owner did in terms of install (he bought the rig used) and how many times he crash locked it. It was probably a less then ideal install just slapping shit together

My other thought with buying pre-built 3rds is that if I blow a 3rd, I'll likely have a spooled third on hand for a spare and can quickly/easily it change out, then order another one. If it's under warranty, great. If not, I'm not any worse off.

I've already talked to ECGS about doing custom stuff like adding the 9" pinion oil slinger for my application since it will be flipped and installing the Trail Gear Toyota to Ford 9" flanges for the drivelines...so they will do some 'custom' stuff.

 

[94toytruck]

So, IYO....if you had front dig capability, you think the Detroit (or Grizzly in my case) would work fine with cutting brakes once the rear was disengaged?

A auto locker will never allow a 3wd dig, get a selectable for that. A auto locker if already locked will not let you lock one wheel, it needs to be already unlocked to do a single wheel burn. If I was after what you are I'd be doing a selectable which is why I plan to do a selectable in the rear.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Well, miracles do exist

 

[Sean]

Where'd you score that beauty? And can you get more?? ;)

 

[Tech Tim]

Might be able to get Spidetrax to do another run.

I could get another run made too, but either way, it wouldn't be cheap and there would need to have a bunch of people lined up for them.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Where'd you score that beauty? And can you get more?? ;)

Just happened to get lucky and find a person that had one sitting around that never made it into a 3rd member . They didn't have any more, I think chances are slim for there to be more unused ones floating around, but never say never haha.

Might be able to get Spidetrax to do another run.

I could get another run made too, but either way, it wouldn't be cheap and there would need to have a bunch of people lined up for them.

Awesome man, nice to have that option on the backburner, I wonder if there would be enough interest out there to get a group buy together. I'm good now, at least for the first locker haha. Though I plan to keep the other axle detroit for now, we'll see.

 

[94toytruck]

Might be able to get Spidetrax to do another run.

I could get another run made too, but either way, it wouldn't be cheap and there would need to have a bunch of people lined up for them.

Like how much and how many people? I might be interested as I'd rather have a ARB in back when I switch out my 14b for my 9" housing.

 

[Sean]

Awesome man, nice to have that option on the backburner, I wonder if there would be enough interest out there to get a group buy together. I'm good now, at least for the first locker haha. Though I plan to keep the other axle detroit for now, we'll see.

I'd be in for 2. Depending on price, maybe 4.

 

[Bebop]

Just so yall know, and I didn't see this earlier, but there is a little European company that makes a badass full chromo billet locker for 9" stuff :

Ford – Atom-9

www.atom-9.com

They work better than the ARB ones, my local friends can certify.

 

[AKnate]

That had to have been way back..... Back in my day at ARB ('97 to 06), we were having rock crawl competitors running up to 300 psi without any issues.

Dang, it's been 17 years since I was at ARB.... I'm getting to be a dinosaur!

Did you host a class in Anchorage once, around 2003-2004?
Think I've met you.

 

[Sean]

Just so yall know, and I didn't see this earlier, but there is a little European company that makes a badass full chromo billet locker for 9" stuff :

Ford – Atom-9

www.atom-9.com

They work better than the ARB ones, my local friends can certify.

Better than the comp model ARB, b/c by the time you pay conversion fees...it's about what the comp ARB is on sale?

 

[Bebop]

Better than the comp model ARB, b/c by the time you pay conversion fees...it's about what the comp ARB is on sale?

But it doesn't break...

 

[Sean]

But it doesn't break...

Everything breaks...but this is the first I'm hearing the comp model ARB 9" is breakage prone....

 

[Sean]

Just so yall know, and I didn't see this earlier, but there is a little European company that makes a badass full chromo billet locker for 9" stuff :

Ford – Atom-9

www.atom-9.com

They work better than the ARB ones, my local friends can certify.

Thanks for the heads up on these, BTW. Didn't know there was another option available.

 

[Tech Tim]

Like how much and how many people? I might be interested as I'd rather have a ARB in back when I switch out my 14b for my 9" housing.

IDK, it's been so many years, I'd have to check into it.

iirc, we used to sell them for $300 each and I was having runs of 10 & 20 made.

Did you host a class in Anchorage once, around 2003-2004?
Think I've met you.

If you are talking ARB, that was probably Chris Wood.

Never been to AK, my brother lives in Anchorage, we've been trying to get up there the past couple years to see him and check it out.

 

[AKnate]

IDK, it's been so many years, I'd have to check into it.

iirc, we used to sell them for $300 each and I was having runs of 10 & 20 made.




If you are talking ARB, that was probably Chris Wood.

Never been to AK, my brother lives in Anchorage, we've been trying to get up there the past couple years to see him and check it out.

Chris sounds familiar now. I still have the class paperwork somewhere.

 

[Peter S]

Just so yall know, and I didn't see this earlier, but there is a little European company that makes a badass full chromo billet locker for 9" stuff :

Ford – Atom-9

www.atom-9.com

They work better than the ARB ones, my local friends can certify.

The atom from Dieter / DG tuning workerd perfect in my nissan ( HB233 )axles. I had some of the first badges.

To be honest. i was super happy but there are also haters and switching back to HF lockers.
Dieter runs the company with lots of passion and always try to improve the product. so for us european defenitly an alternative for arb.

He just need to make them for dana 60 and 14 bolt but thats not a common axle over here.

 

[Sean]

The atom from Dieter / DG tuning workerd perfect in my nissan ( HB233 )axles. I had some of the first badges.

To be honest. i was super happy but there are also haters and switching back to HF lockers.
Dieter runs the company with lots of passion and always try to improve the product. so for us european defenitly an alternative for arb.

He just need to make them for dana 60 and 14 bolt but thats not a common axle over here.

What's an HF locker? Harrop? Or??

 

[Peter S]

What's an HF locker? Harrop? Or??

Harbor freight
cheap chinese locker for nissan axles

 

[Sean]

Harbor freight
cheap chinese locker for nissan axles

Ah...gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[06h3]

is that spidertrax locking collar made of a better material? The tooth area seems to be bigger. Just curious if its a material upgrade, design upgrade or both.