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Guy answers door in Arizona - shot dead by cops in 5 seconds. Oh he's white...

Why is it either the dead guy or the two cops fault alone? This is not an A or B deal here. Maybe the cops were maveriks just rampaging around the city, but more likely they were operating based on training or managerial directives. There are too many methodologies employed by the two officers to not believe that some, most or all of their actions were per the department's guidelines or training. The outcome here is a mess that is the fault of many sides, the dead guy carries his responsibility, the cops do as well for not realizing the methods they used, whether their own or the department's, are flawed and risky, and the police department management owns a big chunk of it for knowingly fielding officers that operate in this manner, or worse training them to do so.

However, it is easier and cleaner to just pick a scapegoat in the matter. So, carry on gentlemen.
 
clodhopper said:
Why is it either the dead guy or the two cops fault alone? This is not an A or B deal here. Maybe the cops were maveriks just rampaging around the city, but more likely they were operating based on training or managerial directives. There are too many methodologies employed by the two officers to not believe that some, most or all of their actions were per the department's guidelines or training. The outcome here is a mess that is the fault of many sides, the dead guy carries his responsibility, the cops do as well for not realizing the methods they used, whether their own or the department's, are flawed and risky, and the police department management owns a big chunk of it for knowingly fielding officers that operate in this manner, or worse training them to do so.

However, it is easier and cleaner to just pick a scapegoat in the matter. So, carry on gentlemen.
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The dead guy does not carry any responsibility in his death.

One can debate, albeit foolishly, the reasonableness of the murdering cop’s actions, but you can’t share or remove his responsibility in this situation. There is nothing that he can accurately articulate that would lessen his responsibility for killing the dude regardless of protocols. Protocols are not excuses
 
Paragon said:
The dead guy does not carry any responsibility in his death.

One can debate, albeit foolishly, the reasonableness of the murdering cop’s actions, but you can’t share or remove his responsibility in this situation. There is nothing that he can accurately articulate that would lessen his responsibility for killing the dude regardless of protocols. Protocols are not excuses
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Dead guy carries his part, a small part of responsibility, but he carries his part. I am not saying he did anything illegal, just stupid. Come ripping out the front door, chest pumped up, gun in hand, looking to bluff a fight, …. not the smartest thing to be doing. He realized it was the cops and quickly tried to change his trajectory, but too late. Even if it wasn't the cops, some other bad actor, his choices were poor. Now, he might have had repetitive knock-n-dash incidents from the local kids or several "karens" for neighbors that were pissing him off, .. I can certainly see a situation where you might want to barrel out the front door to brusquely encourage pains in the ass to quit their activity.

If you are talking straight up legal liability, then you are right, he is free of fault. But if you are exempting personal responsibility for poor choices from the situation and only look at legal aspects, the cops don't look that bad, provided they were following departmental guidelines and training. The whole thing chalks up to unintended accident.

I don't know if it really is an issue of really bad training or bad departmental protocol, but it looks that way to me. First time I watched it left me full of question marks over the actions of the officers who were clearly doing something they have done over and over (other than the shooting itself).
 
Paragon said:
The dead guy does not carry any responsibility in his death.

One can debate, albeit foolishly, the reasonableness of the murdering cop’s actions, but you can’t share or remove his responsibility in this situation. There is nothing that he can accurately articulate that would lessen his responsibility for killing the dude regardless of protocols. Protocols are not excuses
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You simply have no common sense. You are just like BLM and the rest of the woke Dems out there.
 
clodhopper said:
Dead guy carries his part, a small part of responsibility, but he carries his part. I am not saying he did anything illegal, just stupid. Come ripping out the front door, chest pumped up, gun in hand, looking to bluff a fight, …. not the smartest thing to be doing. He realized it was the cops and quickly tried to change his trajectory, but too late. Even if it wasn't the cops, some other bad actor, his choices were poor. Now, he might have had repetitive knock-n-dash incidents from the local kids or several "karens" for neighbors that were pissing him off, .. I can certainly see a situation where you might want to barrel out the front door to brusquely encourage pains in the ass to quit their activity.

If you are talking straight up legal liability, then you are right, he is free of fault. But if you are exempting personal responsibility for poor choices from the situation and only look at legal aspects, the cops don't look that bad, provided they were following departmental guidelines and training. The whole thing chalks up to unintended accident.

I don't know if it really is an issue of really bad training or bad departmental protocol, but it looks that way to me. First time I watched it left me full of question marks over the actions of the officers who were clearly doing something they have done over and over (other than the shooting itself).
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Yep.
 
Rewatched the video, the guy even put the gun down and away, and signaled "okok" with his left hand.
Should have resulted in a "face down on the floor now", not shots fired. POS cop.
​​
 
Neighbor making the call, cops knowing it was probably a bogus call are the 2 that are responsible. Otherwise you have to assume the cops are just going to shoot people in their own home. Yes 50 years ago cops were way more violent in these type of situations. But one has to ask what has caused the recent change from a police office knocking on a door and asking questions vs standing where they know they cant be seen without opening the door and using that as an excuse to gain access.

I think a big part of it is the unions fighting for the cops they know are criminals, because union. Not a shot at union guys but a shot at union management. Combine that with the fact that government employees are obviously held to a different legal standard than private sector employees and then my favorite “cops cant go to GenPop because there are criminals in there that may hurt them. Well tough shit if your going to GenPop then you are a convicted criminal as well...

If we held all citizens to the same legal standard then these problems would not be nearly as common. But what we have seen in the last 20 years is “As long as the officer goes home safely at night” is going to prevent any accountability for the behavior of officers.

Cop knowingly shuts off all the safeties that prevent their K9 from overheating in the back of a cruiser and the dog dies we hear. The officer is grieving At the loss of his fellow partner and friend. He will undergo counseling to get him through this. He is now back on the force even though he killed a officer (K9).

You kill a K9, and you are charged with murdering a cop. Cop shoots you K9 through a glass window and they are cleared and worst case they have to find a different force to work for.

It is not a department problem it is a system wide problem of justice not being blind but very much picking and choosing who is above the law.

I lost a friendship after friends dad, retired CHP, told me he was proud to say he had never taken a bribe. I asked him if he knew of or ever saw any dirty cops and he sheepishly ducted his head and said yes (mumbled). I then asked if he turned them in, to that he said no. I pointed put his bribe was his career because he knew that if he crossed that thin blue line it would have effectively ended his career. There was a brief look of shame on his face before anger came out.
 
ev13wt said:
Rewatched the video, the guy even put the gun down and away, and signaled "okok" with his left hand.
Should have resulted in a "face down on the floor now", not shots fired. POS cop.
​​
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And which video was that? The one I saw most of it was blacked out.
 
Morning news "official report" death from being shot in the back, blood alcohol .15 percent.
 
Yup. Use anything they can to blame the victim in this case. I hate to say it but a big reason is probably because he is white. Had he been black the cops would be getting blamed, or even non white. We sadly have a race war against white people going on in this country

Ultimately the militarization of the police and the “Us vs. Them” mentality played a big roll. Anybody that doesn’t think that mentality exists has never worked security at a bar or club. When the cops have to show up, you identify yourself as security right away and they treat you far different than everyone else in the club. Fail to do so and you can easily end up on the ground courtesy of the storm troopers...
 
.15 is quite a bit...




But the victim still had the wherewithal to arm himself before he answered the door and then once realized the who/what was going on, lowered the gun and was already getting on the ground.


The cop was trigger happy and that is all there is to it. In the video they were going in hot and the outcome is unfortunately not surprising.


With that being said, had he not had the gun it probably would have ended with a beat down because he was drunk and resisting arrest or some shit.

Someones life was changing that night PERIOD
 
Lil said:
.15 is quite a bit...




But the victim still had the wherewithal to arm himself before he answered the door and then once realized the who/what was going on, lowered the gun and was already getting on the ground.


The cop was trigger happy and that is all there is to it. In the video they were going in hot and the outcome is unfortunately not surprising.


With that being said, had he not had the gun it probably would have ended with a beat down because he was drunk and resisting arrest or some shit.

Someones life was changing that night PERIOD
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Isn't .15 just 4 beers? Not that I would want to talk to talk to cops after 4 beers.
 
for the average sized person, with average hydration, etc.

.02 = one drink (one "beer" even though they vary of course, or one shot of average liquor)

Your body burns .01 per hour under average conditions.

For me, a normal sized glass in my home with half Jack and half Pepsi would put me at about .06-.08 in one glass. Drink two of those in a hour (more like 15-20 minutes around here) and you get there to .15ville.

At home, that isn't much while sitting around with a GF playing video games for the evening.

Doubtful the guy was sloppy drunk. He immediately went to set the gun down and the other hand came up in the universal OK OK OK sign. Doesn't matter though. He is in his home, made no threatening moves, and was given about 3 seconds before unloaded on.

Cop needs jail
 
[486 said:
;n117242]

he was drunk in his own home, certainly his fault 100% jeez the nerve of these people
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He was drunk in public with a loaded firearm the moment he crossed the apartment door's threshold.
 
crisbee1 said:
And he never looked left before coming out low ready. Drunk.
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So the cop to his left was clearly in no danger as the drunk victim didnt know he was there. Drunk in public victim tried to lower his weapon and get down when he saw one cop, and got shot by a cop he didnt know was there.
 
Johann said:
Isn't .15 just 4 beers? Not that I would want to talk to talk to cops after 4 beers.
Click to expand...

Lil said:
I honestly don't know.




But like you said
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4 IPAs in 2 hours gives 0.15 BAC on a 190lb man.

News will say: "...almost TWICE the legal limit!"




https://globalrph.com/medcalcs/blood...-intoxication/

Calcs I used:

190lbs
.65 (% of body that can absorb alc, male, that's not just lean mass so it doesn't mean he is 35% fat.)
2 hours
12 oz
4 drinks
7% ABV
_____
=0.15 BAC

.15 is definitely beyond driving territory but by no means drunk and belligerent.
 
Last edited:
evernoob said:
4 IPAs in 2 hours gives 0.15 BAC on a 190lb man.

News will say: "...almost TWICE the legal limit!"




https://globalrph.com/medcalcs/blood...-intoxication/

Calcs I used:

190lbs
.65 (% of body that can absorb alc, male, that's not just lean mass so it doesn't mean he is 35% fat.)
2 hours
12 oz
5 drinks
7% ABV
_____
=0.15 BAC

.15 is definitely beyond driving territory but by no means drunk and belligerent.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that was what I thought I remembered and what I use as a metric while drinking. Though I usually average a slower beers per hour ratio... ;) :beer:
 
evernoob said:
4 IPAs in 2 hours gives 0.15 BAC on a 190lb man.

News will say: "...almost TWICE the legal limit!"




https://globalrph.com/medcalcs/blood...-intoxication/

Calcs I used:

190lbs
.65 (% of body that can absorb alc, male, that's not just lean mass so it doesn't mean he is 35% fat.)
2 hours
12 oz
4 drinks
7% ABV
_____
=0.15 BAC

.15 is definitely beyond driving territory but by no means drunk and belligerent.
Click to expand...

almost twice the legal limit to operate a vehicle. This guy wasn’t driving anywhere.

his BAC is irrelevant.
 
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