Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

[Treefrog]

How many trail guys are running high end Spidertrax axles on their rigs now? I bet if a complete DIY/WIY IFS kit was put together and kept in the 25k range I think there would be a market. All it would take is one or two guys to build buggies around the kit that spanked their SA axle friend asses consistantly and they would sell like hotcakes.

I think the worse performance in the rocks would hold it back. Especially at the entry cost. I think the big draw of the high end SAs is that they are known to hold up to racers, so they feel more comfortable with beating on it.

 

[DesertCJ]

How many trail guys are running high end Spidertrax axles on their rigs now? I bet if a complete DIY/WIY IFS kit was put together and kept in the 25k range I think there would be a market. All it would take is one or two guys to build buggies around the kit that spanked their SA axle friend asses consistantly and they would sell like hotcakes.

25K IFS kit? Selling like hotcakes? No way. I'll be waiting for this IFS ass spanking on the trail Do you really think that the same top 10 (More or less)wouldn't remain in the top 10 if they all drove solid axle cars? I think it's like 75% the Indian and maybe 25% magic arrow....lol.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

25K IFS kit? Selling like hotcakes? No way. I'll be waiting for this IFS ass spanking on the trail Do you really think that the same top 10 (More or less)wouldn't remain in the top 10 if they all drove solid axle cars? I think it's like 75% the Indian and maybe 25% magic arrow....lol.

Let's compare apples to apples.....

Take one of those top 10 Can-Ams at KOH and in theory replace the ifs/irs suspensions with imaginary scaled down solid axles and link suspension components without changing any other factor such as overall weight, F/R bias, wheel horsepower, tire size or belly height and tell me how it would be so much faster in the rocks that it's slowness in the desert wouldn't matter?

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

The only time Cody Miller winched during the whole race was when they winches the car up a vertical wall to go around a bunch of 700hp super duper 6000lb 4400 trail plugs so he could keep moving. He said they drove up everything else the entire race ON 35" TIRES in the interview after the race. Its pretty hard to argue with the performance and the results.

 

[aczlan]

There was also some weird TTB-like IRS that Studebaker? AMC? or one of those other 2nd tier brands tried around that time too. I read a couple pages about it with diagrams like 10yr ago but my attempts to find info since have been futile.

Lancia?

Rear Suspension - IRS

The early Aurelia had a unique independent rear suspension. Used from the introduction of the car in 1950 through 1953, it contributed to the car's remarkable handling, as noted below: There were...

www.lanciaaurelia.info

map of differences

It is difficult to understand all the different Aurelia models, and which changes happened with which model. There were changes in displacement, manifolds, heads, rear suspensions, and transaxle...

www.lanciaaurelia.info

Aaron Z

 

[mobil1syn]

The only time Cody Miller winched during the whole race was when they winches the car up a vertical wall to go around a bunch of 700hp super duper 6000lb 4400 trail plugs so he could keep moving. He said they drove up everything else the entire race ON 35" TIRES in the interview after the race. Its pretty hard to argue with the performance and the results.

IMHO, cody is racing for position in hopes he can get a win. hes not outright racing for a win. a top ten finish is a win for the marketing group. he was an 1hr 45min off pace thats a lot of ground to make up.

 

[bdkw1]

You can make a C4 adapter for anything if you want to.

I would like to see you wind a C4 up to 10K

Some of the Yami sled motors have built in gear reduction. Those would be better.

If you want real fun.

Specs | Monobloc Hayabusa V8 - JFC Racing

www.jfcracing.com

 

[2big bronco]

I would like to see you wind a C4 up to 10K

Some of the Yami sled motors have built in gear reduction. Those would be better.

If you want real fun.

Specs | Monobloc Hayabusa V8 - JFC Racing

www.jfcracing.com

Mine sees high 8s and ive never thought twice about it. It would see 10 if my motor didnt really hat anything over 9

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

IMHO, cody is racing for position in hopes he can get a win. hes not outright racing for a win. a top ten finish is a win for the marketing group. he was an 1hr 45min off pace thats a lot of ground to make up.

10 or 12 years ago we were all having this same conversation about how IFS would never be good at KOH because of all the disadvantages it had in the rocks. And here we are.....

Let's also remember that this is only their 3rd attempt at KOH 4400 with golf carts and right from the start they have been in the top 20 and have placed higher and higher every year. What do you think will happen next year with them, how about 5yrs from now? I really don't see them getting anything but faster in the desert and rocks and with a little luck might pull off a podium or win. It's all speculation on my part but I don't see why it can't happen.

 

[Yotota]

I think we all get some weird levels of defensive nostalgia over our DIY straight axle shitboxes. Just like all the "I'd rather push a [Brand A] than drive a [Brand B]" mentalities. I've been guilty of it too.

KOH isn't technical crawling anymore for the top 4400 cars, it's desert racing and rock racing. Dave has made it obvious that he isn't going to do anything to change that. And the Gomez boys have made it obvious that IFS cars, even without bling bling portals, can win.


Something I just thought of...

How many new race cars have entered KOH in the past 5 years with solid axles? Not counting previous builds that someone tagged for the race, or recreational wheelers that someone decides to race for fun, but purpose built rigs whose goal is to race KOH? Most of the solid axle rigs are being raced because that's what people have already invested in. I bet we'd see a lot more IFS cars if every single team had to start from scratch and had the budget to choose between SA and IFS.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I would like to see you wind a C4 up to 10K

Some of the Yami sled motors have built in gear reduction. Those would be better.

If you want real fun.

Specs | Monobloc Hayabusa V8 - JFC Racing

www.jfcracing.com

I just checked out that website and holy crap is that engine impressive, especially the 785/505 HP/TQ numbers on the twin turbo version and the block only weights 43lbs with a complete long block at 200lbs Probably way to high strung to ever be useful in a 4400 car at KOH but it would be insanely fun in an open track day car or a 3/4 scale trophy truck.

 

[mobil1syn]

10 or 12 years ago we were all having this same conversation about how IFS would never be good at KOH because of all the disadvantages it had in the rocks. And here we are.....

Let's also remember that this is only their 3rd attempt at KOH 4400 with golf carts and right from the start they have been in the top 20 and have placed higher and higher every year. What do you think will happen next year with them, how about 5yrs from now? I really don't see them getting anything but faster in the desert and rocks and with a little luck might pull off a podium or win. It's all speculation on my part but I don't see why it can't happen.

if he drove it to keep pace, it self destructs.

he needs to pick up his avg speed by 9mph to keep pace. thats a lot and he would have be checkers or wreckers at that point.

 

[DesertCJ]

Let's compare apples to apples.....

Take one of those top 10 Can-Ams at KOH and in theory replace the ifs/irs suspensions with imaginary scaled down solid axles and link suspension components without changing any other factor such as overall weight, F/R bias, wheel horsepower, tire size or belly height and tell me how it would be so much faster in the rocks that it's slowness in the desert wouldn't matter?

Other than possibly the 100 or so racers, who cares about perceived or actual dominance in the desert? Sure it's fun to bomb the desert on the way to the trails but it's just the way to the trail for 99% of the wheelers out there. Yeah, we know...KOH is a rocky desert race. There's just no way that a utv on 35s can compare to a rockbuggy on 40s-43s in extreme rocks. I get it, this thread is about 4400 and KOH. My only point is that nobody wheeling recreationally is going to drop 25k on an IFS kit, it will remain expensive as all get out for the 30-50 racers using it in 4400.

 

[bdkw1]

I just checked out that website and holy crap is that engine impressive, especially the 785/505 HP/TQ numbers on the twin turbo version and the block only weights 43lbs with a complete long block at 200lbs Probably way to high strung to ever be useful in a 4400 car at KOH but it would be insanely fun in an open track day car or a 3/4 scale trophy truck.

Well, if you ran gear reduction to get it down to a reasonable RPM, say 6500 redline, that bumps the TQ to 813. That is pretty comparable to any big block. With good boost control that thing could be like a tractor.

Built in 1.6-1 gear reduction and bolted to a Ried case 4L80, it would be about 300# lighter than a LS package.

While the weight reduction is nice, it really needs to come out of the unsprung weight. What I don't get is why all the portals I have seen are 4 gear setups. 2 gear would be lighter, cheaper, more compact and have less friction. Flip the diff and spin it backwards, not that hard.

 

[Treefrog]

2 gear would be lighter, cheaper, more compact and have less friction. Flip the diff and spin it backwards, not that hard.

Or put them on something like a Campbell's chassis or other mid engine and unflip the diffs.

 

[JR4X]

Well, if you ran gear reduction to get it down to a reasonable RPM, say 6500 redline, that bumps the TQ to 813. That is pretty comparable to any big block. With good boost control that thing could be like a tractor.

Built in 1.6-1 gear reduction and bolted to a Ried case 4L80, it would be about 300# lighter than a LS package.

While the weight reduction is nice, it really needs to come out of the unsprung weight. What I don't get is why all the portals I have seen are 4 gear setups. 2 gear would be lighter, cheaper, more compact and have less friction. Flip the diff and spin it backwards, not that hard.

Asking because I genuinely don’t know. Why would 74weld call their 4 gear portals that weigh 80 pounds each a race portal and a 2 gear that weighs 60 pounds each the crawler portal?

A bunch of U4 cars are rear engine so 2 gear portals would be easy to integrate.

 

[bdkw1]

4 gear can be slightly stronger as you have more teeth engagement between the gears. But due to the size of the idler this usually isn't much if a gain. Going slightly wider or larger center to center distance would easily match those gains.

My feelings is that it was done initially for sales, "Look, no need to flip diffs or change anything, bolt on and go!"

Then everybody else just followed along. If in doubt, look at all the SXS bolt on portals.

If you're starting from scratch, there is zero justification for it.

 

[bdkw1]

To add to this, 2 gear is simple to change ratios. 4 gear is not.

Looking at the 74 weld site, the 4 gear is optimized for IFS with the 1 piece lower gear/stub. This let's them put a roller bearing inside the gear reducing the width of the case and moving the lower arm pivot in. This gives a better scrub radius. Since you won't be doing ratio changes on it, the extra cost in the lower gear set isn't an issue. The 2 gear set looks like SA only with a shitty scrub radius.

 

[bunk]

Skipped 4 pages cause there will never be a cheap ifs. The required materials to make a lasting set-up dictate cost and none of them are cheap.

The direction 4400 cars are going is more expensive, the question IMO is where and when will it plateau?

Personally id rather rec wheel.

 

[JR4X]

Now that I have a couple hundred miles on a pair of portals. I feel like I need a rig with portals front and rear in my life. Interestingly. Loren and Vaughn’s new Triton cars, Loren’s FIS, portals front and rear. Vaughn’s has portal IFS but no portals on a SRA. On 42’s Loren’s car has nearly 2 ft of ground clearance with a flat belly end to end. Glides over everything, even if the belly hits it has so much droop that the tires are still on the earth propelling it forward.

Our little Bronco on 35’s with portals up front and a flat belly all the way to the rear axle. It glides over everything till the rear axle tubes get there then it hangs up hard.

 

[ridered3]

Now that I have a couple hundred miles on a pair of portals. I feel like I need a rig with portals front and rear in my life. Interestingly. Loren and Vaughn’s new Triton cars, Loren’s FIS, portals front and rear. Vaughn’s has portal IFS but no portals on a SRA. On 42’s Loren’s car has nearly 2 ft of ground clearance with a flat belly end to end. Glides over everything, even if the belly hits it has so much droop that the tires are still on the earth propelling it forward.

Our little Bronco on 35’s with portals up front and a flat belly all the way to the rear axle. It glides over everything till the rear axle tubes get there then it hangs up hard.

Considering the speeds and horsepressures you’d be doing in Stock class, do you think rear portals would survive?

 

[ridered3]

Not necessarily 4400 related but someone asked 74Weld about lower price points for portals and here was their response.

Here the video the post referenced comparing portals vs non portals.

 

[JR4X]

Not necessarily 4400 related but someone asked 74Weld about lower price points for portals and here was their response.

Here the video the post referenced comparing portals vs non portals.

Oh shit I didn’t know they used my interview.

 

[ridered3]

Oh shit I didn’t know they used my interview.

You famous

 

[JR4X]

You famous

They got my name wrong and I didn’t want to correct him on video. Dad (Shawn) ordered the portals and then I paid the bill and took over.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

They got my name wrong and I didn’t want to correct him on video. Dad (Shawn) ordered the portals and then I paid the bill and took over.

 

[ridered3]

They got my name wrong and I didn’t want to correct him on video. Dad (Shawn) ordered the portals and then I paid the bill and took over.

Famous-ish

 

[AgitatedPancake]

I know it was brought up several pages ago but I want to get back in topic in the 2/3 3/4 size car talk if we may.

First let’s talk weights, when the number 1 enemy is gravity every pound you carry is giving an advantage to the enemy. Bailey Campbell’s 2 seat car weighs in at almost 6,000 pounds leaving the starting line. I think the boys 2 seaters are 500 pounds less than that.

Why is a CanAm on 35’s able kick the shit out of a 4400 car in the rocks and still be reliable. Because it weighs less than half of what the current 4400’s do. I know of one single seat 4400 car that leaving the start line is #4100 pounds and thats Jordan Townsends car. We’ve seen some people try to build 2/3 or 3/4 scale cars but it hasn’t been the kind of builder with FU money that can execute on par with a top 4400 build. I’m also in that camp. If I were to attempt a 3/4 size 4400 car it wouldn’t be at the level of any of the top 30 or so 4400’s out there now.

But still I’d like to entertain the thought. I raced a 2 seat rzr for a few seasons and I loved that light little SOB. It is a lot more capable than I thought it was going to be. The problem is it’s far more fragile than I thought it was going to be. It’s so light and cushy that you cannot tell that the pace you are running is doing damage to it. Everything feels fine until something is broken badly. I never had belt issues with it, it was always steering and suspension breakage. If you’re good on the gas/brake pedals it will crawl or climb it’s way over stuff I wouldn’t have that a golf cart could.

So what is the mid ground. Think of every single component that you could lose weight with and what horsepower would you need to make a IFS/IRS 3500# car keep up with a 1000 hp 5000# car. Get rid of the CVT and use a smaller lighter engine/auto/t-case. Next to a powerglide or TH400 a C4 is about the second most supported trans with aftermarket cases, small light and capable of processing a ton of horsepower with less parasitic loss than a TH400. A little turbo’d direct injection 4 cyl paired with a built C4 is probably several hundred pounds less than a LS/TH400. If your not packing the weight or the 1000 horse can you get away with smaller unit bearings, 35 spline shafts and 37’s again if the vehicles footprint is say 80 ish inches wide with a 100” to 105” wheelbase. My rzr is 80 inches wide, 94” wheelbase and has 18” of front wheel travel with 22” of rear wheel travel, on 35’s at 2000 pounds is pretty well balanced if it was only stronger than glass.

A little late to get back to this, but such a good thought exercise. How to decrease the scale of a competitive U4 car is definitely a hard one to pin down. I think the conversation you guys had is along what will happen (at least one of the routes explored). Aluminum 4 banger, some sort of "traditional" transmission instead of a CVT, FIS and portals, any something around a 37" tire. Those French buggies Bebop posted are pretty intriguing. I think they may be on track for the overall scale, but we'll probably see many different ways of arriving there.

The ford ecoboosts, chevy ecotecs, and hell even some Honda 4 bangers seem like great powertrain candidates.

Here's a funny one - could transaxles be revisited (moon buggy style)? Very dense, efficient packaging, probably notably higher efficiency than our regular standalone transmission + tcase. Gearing has always been the issue, with moon buggies topping out at like 50mph because you're taking the original wheel outputs and reducing them again with the rigs differentials. But because we're looking for the ultimate with no holds barred, Can a custom final drive gearset be made to get them into a useable RPM range for up to ~120mph wheel speed? And because the pumpkins in IFS don't move, you could almost hook the transaxle output directly to the pinion snout of either the front or rear diff so packaging is pretty flexible

 

[bdkw1]

A little late to get back to this, but such a good thought exercise. How to decrease the scale of a competitive U4 car is definitely a hard one to pin down. I think the conversation you guys had is along what will happen (at least one of the routes explored). Aluminum 4 banger, some sort of "traditional" transmission instead of a CVT, FIS and portals, any something around a 37" tire. Those French buggies Bebop posted are pretty intriguing. I think they may be on track for the overall scale, but we'll probably see many different ways of arriving there.

The ford ecoboosts, chevy ecotecs, and hell even some Honda 4 bangers seem like great powertrain candidates.

Here's a funny one - could transaxles be revisited (moon buggy style)? Very dense, efficient packaging, probably notably higher efficiency than our regular standalone transmission + tcase. Gearing has always been the issue, with moon buggies topping out at like 50mph because you're taking the original wheel outputs and reducing them again with the rigs differentials. But because we're looking for the ultimate with no holds barred, Can a custom final drive gearset be made to get them into a useable RPM range for up to ~120mph wheel speed? And because the pumpkins in IFS don't move, you could almost hook the transaxle output directly to the pinion snout of either the front or rear diff so packaging is pretty flexible

The Tubeworks diffs for the planetary rear ends are like 2-1. They are very compact and would be perfect for that.

 

[bdkw1]

Only without the drop gears.