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Fabricated 9" / 10" housings

YotaAtieToo said:
$500 seems like a lot for a fairly simple part?
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Curious and completely serious....How much profit do you think they should make on that part?

Im not asking how much that should cost to make, just asking how much profit do you think they should make on that part?
 
Tech Tim said:
Curious and completely serious....How much profit do you think they should make on that part?

Im not asking how much that should cost to make, just asking how much profit do you think they should make on that part?
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No idea

I'm only comparing to other similar parts, 99-04 cups are much cheaper for example. I understand that machining is expensive, but it just doesn't seem like that difficult of a part to machine, or a ton of material.

For example, to me, these arms look mu h harder to machine, plus have multiple pieces, hardware, ect, included for the same price.

northwestfab.com

Dana 60 Raised Double Shear Knuckle Tie-In Steering Arms (Pair)

Due to a Machine Breakdown we currently have no way to manufacture steering arms until the machine is fixed, you can still place an order, but please note we do not know when we will have parts ready to ship until the machine is up and running again. Upgrading to the mecca of a full-hydraulic...
northwestfab.com northwestfab.com

Obviously, if someone could make them way cheaper, they would and they would sell a ton of them. Just looks like a simple part for money is all I was saying.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Seems like $500-600 per pair is going rate for 05+ stuff. Not sure why it would cost so much more than 99-04 stuff.
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Because it’s bigger, it’s lower sales volume, and it hasn’t been around as long. Mark Williams is also a premium product, you’re probably comparing it to Trail Gear 99-04 cups (not premium). S&S fabrication advertises a pair of 05+ cups on Facebook for $400. There’s your comparison.
 
Tech Tim said:
Curious and completely serious....How much profit do you think they should make on that part?
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How much profit are wheel spacer people making? About that much.

It's beyond obvious from just looking at the options that nobody selling these things is making any serious effort to control costs.

Branik's part has a back side taper, unnecessary tapped holes (literally everyone installing this part has a welder and can weld on their own damn brake brackets) and milled faces and is not radially symmetrical.

IMG-7270__64448.jpg



Weaver sells a more reasonable part for $475/pair. Weaver is probably making a ton more profit on the deal than anyone else because their part is less stupidly over-engineered but it still leaves a lot to be desired.

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Mark Williams sell them for $620/pair, call it $570 since they include seals which they also sell for $25ea. Because machining the backside isn't stupid enough, they also machine all four sides.

Screen Shot 2023-03-07 at 6.45.48 AM.png


Busted Knuckle sells what appears to be the same cup as MW at the same price.

Screen Shot 2023-03-07 at 6.43.28 AM.png


Crane is somehow worse than Branik when it comes to unnecessary machine operations and $600/pair. Literally every side has a ton of milling.

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Frankly I think it should be more like $200-300/pair which is in line with the 99-04 stuff. Skip the fancy finish since it's a part for people who fabricate shit and whatever they're building is going to get gone over anyway if they want it to clean up and paint nice. But hey, race shops know what kind of idiots they're selling to and fancy finish is part of that even if it adds zero performance. Secondly, skip all the work on the back side and the OD of the part at the cost of the part be set up a second time. If you're using a fancy CNC machining center like these people must be (otherwise they wouldn't be making such complex parts) that flip adds a pretty substantial cost. And fuck including seals and screws. Seals are uncessary (you can design the part to not need it) and very piece of shit you add to the bill of materials is more shit to order, inventory and keep track of. To anyone with a double digit number of brain cells that's a pretty clear indication that cost is not a priority to either manufacturer.

There are a lot of really simple ways to make a chunk of metal with a five holes and a counter-bore. If you are doing enough volume to spend one or two days worth of man hours running this part you should probably have the five holes cut on a waterjet in lots and then transferred over to a mill or lathe fixture for the counter-bore. For "made to order" or "keep one or two on the shelf" volume you can just do it all in a CNC mill. Even a manual mill with a rotary table would work but with more labor and less profit.

The fact that there aren't cheap options with minimal finish work cut from chunks of A36 plate like there are with D60 high steer arms is a reflection of the fact that people building shit on a budget aren't using UBs and that the high budget ballers are willing to piss away money to look the part. There simply is no low end market for this stuff so nobody fills it.

And before some idiot asks why I'm not cranking these out with my rotary table and bridgeport? Because I have a life and making parts for people who are too lazy to make their own isn't part of it. If I want some I'll make some for me.


Im4yotas said:
After making my own 05+ UB cups on my manual mill, $500 is a steal! :lmao:
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$300+ to save three hours of your time?

Even the idiots making "muh time is worth somethin" arguments don't usually cite those kinds of numbers.

YotaAtieToo said:
Seems like $500-600 per pair is going rate for 05+ stuff. Not sure why it would cost so much more than 99-04 stuff.
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Exactly. The parts are the same complexity with dimensional differences. Heck, the Weaver 05+ bearing cups are simpler than the Nitro 99-04 cups

It's not like we're talking the difference between a Model A drop axle and a TTB drop beam where the former outsells the latter 100:1. We're still talking about solidly "make a few or a few dozen in a production run and shelve them for later sale" volumes in both cases.

The fact that there's such a huge difference in cost is purely a reflection of who the buyers are and what they want.
 
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Bebop said:
Enlighten me
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Seal the hub with an O-ring and cap (since you're presumably running slugs) and RTV the bearing to cup face and rely on the grease seals to keep oil in. They're already double lip (keep contaminants out of the grease and keep the grease in) so they're already sealed in that direction.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Seal the hub with an O-ring and cap (since you're presumably running slugs) and RTV the bearing to cup face and rely on the grease seals to keep oil in. They're already double lip (keep contaminants out of the grease and keep the grease in) so they're already sealed in that direction.
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shitty solution is shitty
 
arse_sidewards said:
The fact that there aren't cheap options with minimal finish work cut from chunks of A36 plate like there are with D60 high steer arms is a reflection of the fact that people building shit on a budget aren't using UBs and that the high budget ballers are willing to piss away money to look the part. There simply is no low end market for this stuff so nobody fills it.
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What is building on a budget? Every build has a budget. Are axle swaps a build? Is assembling a fab 9" a build or do I have to built the thing from plate and tube again. :flipoff2:
I think those that are "building" not just swapping axles are in fact moving towards the unit bearings but it does effect the budget.
Branik designed their cup for use with their brake package. Looks nice may ever be the lightest option.
Weaver simple and cost effective I like it.
Mark Williams top notch and includes seals. The big thing for me is the location of the seal. This location allows me to have more oil capacity in the rear housing vs seals at the diff. That would help keep my rear gear and bearings nice and cool while rolling down the interstate or pounding the whoops in dezert.
 
RustyC said:
Mark Williams top notch and includes seals. The big thing for me is the location of the seal. This location allows me to have more oil capacity in the rear housing vs seals at the diff. That would help keep my rear gear and bearings nice and cool while rolling down the interstate or pounding the whoops in dezert.
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Spidertrax housings have the seals at the diff and nobody will argue that they work in the dezert.

I think the MW setup was made with 14 bolts in mind originally.
 
RustyC said:
I think those that are "building" not just swapping axles are in fact moving towards the unit bearings but it does effect the budget.
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I think that's only true for people who are already running a UB front and plan on buying an aftermarket rear center section. I think the people who are starting with used rear axles as their donors are grafting on whatever FF spindles/hubs strike their fancy.


RustyC said:
Branik designed their cup for use with their brake package. Looks nice may ever be the lightest option.
Weaver simple and cost effective I like it.
Mark Williams top notch and includes seals.
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Regardless, none of these options make even the slightest effort to be low cost and that's my point. They're all overly bling and completely inappropriate for an axle that isn't on a "pull out all or most of the stops" budget.


RustyC said:
The big thing for me is the location of the seal. This location allows me to have more oil capacity in the rear housing vs seals at the diff. That would help keep my rear gear and bearings nice and cool while rolling down the interstate or pounding the whoops in dezert.
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If you want the tube to be full of oil then RTV the bearing into the cup. :flipoff2:

Bebop said:
shitty solution is shitty
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You could split the difference and machine a shoulder into the cup to fit an O-ring that will crush up against the bearing. If you're doing the CNC mill route then it's just a couple extra lines.

This is exactly what I mean by pointless over-engineering. Every seal on your rig is another seal to fuck up or drop in the dirt or carry a spare of. Meanwhile RTV is already in the toolbox and can be changed out with a box cutter blade.
 
Bebop said:
:barf: :shaking:
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What next? You gonna tell us that it's a travesty that sawmilled lumber replaced pit sawn lumber? That surface grinders replaced hand scraping?

Increasing efficiency and reducing cost is progress. The only people who don't like it are the people who are salty when the poors can get something that's almost as good for the fraction of the cost.

There is zero reason to be using a trick seal when a little bit of low/no cost crafty design can eliminate it and yield equal performance.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Increasing efficiency and reducing cost is progress. The only people who don't like it are the people who are salty when the poors can get something that's almost as good for the fraction of the cost.
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Yes.
I'm here to prevent the poor from building rear FF axles with 05+ UBs.

Get a grip.
 
arse_sidewards said:
What next? You gonna tell us that it's a travesty that sawmilled lumber replaced pit sawn lumber? That surface grinders replaced hand scraping?

Increasing efficiency and reducing cost is progress. The only people who don't like it are the people who are salty when the poors can get something that's almost as good for the fraction of the cost.

There is zero reason to be using a trick seal when a little bit of low/no cost crafty design can eliminate it and yield equal performance.
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You still use NPT fittings on everything don't you?
 
Bebop said:
Yes.
I'm here to prevent the poor from building rear FF axles with 05+ UBs.

Get a grip.
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You get a grip. 90% of the bling bullshit you're infatuated with has zero or near zero bearing on fitness for purpose. A $100 metal square with the right holes hogged out of it will perform almost indistinguishably from crap you're trying to justify. There is simply no market for said square so it doesn't exist yet. Just like $100 (2023 dollars) high steer arms didn't exist in 1990.

665.0coupe said:
You still use NPT fittings on everything don't you?
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Depends on the thing. I'm not dumb enough to waste my life machining a flat into something in a situation where NPT will do just fine.
 
arse_sidewards said:
You get a grip. 90% of the bling bullshit you're infatuated with has zero or near zero bearing on fitness for purpose. A $100 metal square with the right holes hogged out of it will perform almost indistinguishably from crap you're trying to justify. There is simply no market for said square so it doesn't exist yet. Just like $100 (2023 dollars) high steer arms didn't exist in 1990.


Depends on the thing. I'm not dumb enough to waste my life machining a flat into something in a situation where NPT will do just fine.
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As a person who designed and had a few local shops quote me these cups in 2017 I think you don't understand how much larger these are than the 99-04. The material costs are SIGNIFCANTLY higher.

At 50 pcs runs COST was ~$150 each in 2017 $. So I quickly realized there was no hope to reach a cheap enough price then to sell the volume you needed to make any $.

Starting from a forging is the answer to make them cost effective but you would need serious volume or go offshore.
 
Satan's_Minion said:
As a person who designed and had a few local shops quote me these cups in 2017 I think you don't understand how much larger these are than the 99-04. The material costs are SIGNIFCANTLY higher.

At 50 pcs runs COST was ~$150 each in 2017 $. So I quickly realized there was no hope to reach a cheap enough price then to sell the volume you needed to make any $.

Starting from a forging is the answer to make them cost effective but you would need serious volume or go offshore.
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So $150ea or $300/pair after normal machine shop margins.

Fucking nailed it. :smokin:

arse_sidewards said:
How much profit are wheel spacer people making? About that much.
...
Frankly I think it should be more like $200-300/pair
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I agree a forging would be the way to go.
 
Wisconsinite said:
And labor costs aren't much behind.
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Have you seen what CNC button pushers make?
I'm glad I'm not one of them. :laughing:

Bebop said:
2017.
Steel prices doubled since then.
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And they're on their way back down.

I stand by my statement that if these things were as common as wheel spacers and high steer arms and made by the kinds of CNC shops that make those things they'd be a hell of a lot cheaper.
 
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