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Bebop said:
If your components are so good, why doesn't any high profile race team use them ?
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I know that they aren't on any big name 4x4 stuff and that is why you said that, but the "world's fastest street car" is running their cooling system so you statement is mostly incorrect.



Their cooling system has kept this monster cool through many drag a drive events.
 
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crazybluerider said:
I know that they aren't on any big name 4x4 stuff and that is why you said that, but the "world's fastest street car" is running their cooling system so you statement is mostly incorrect.



Their cooling system has kept this monster cool through many drag a drive events.
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I was talking about a high end, OEM backed, international race program.

WRC, W2RC, FIA GT, etc

When you look at the design of their fan, there is no way it would hold to the punishments of offroad. The standard spal fan will break the cage and it's bigger than the DeltaPAG stuff.
 
CarterKraft said:
If there was ever a member to verify claims it might be HYDRODYNAMIC

Maybe y'all want to see about sending him a fan?
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While I don’t know shit about fans. (Well actually I do), but the guy I sent my Spal brushless fan to test is very knowledgeable. (Electrical engineer) He has no axe to grind and he loves testing stuff. I’m sure he would test the PAG fan for no cost. I’m tempted to buy one and send it to him, but I already did that with the Spal brushless and that was a wasted $500. If PAG would agree to loan me a fan, I would set it up with this guy.

I also have no problem with Hydrodynamic, but I could see where PAG might feel he is biased.

As far as my knowledge concerning fans, I don’t know shit about the electrical end of it, but I did consult with a fan engineer in Australia about a cooling fan on a helicopter. Based on that discussion, I found out that fans can be optimized to move air or create air pressure. I would say the the PAG fan design would be good for moving air, but not for creating air pressure. So it may work great in a front automotive application. Probably not as good for a rear or side radiator that does not see any ram air. Also, a crawler may not have enough ram air to help even in the front. I would say it needs to be in a “puller configuration“ for sure.
 
Bebop said:
If your components are so good, why doesn't any high profile race team use them ?
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If ya know, ya know
 
Bebop said:
I was talking about a high end, OEM backed, international race program.

WRC, W2RC, FIA GT, etc

When you look at the design of their fan, there is no way it would hold to the punishments of offroad. The standard spal fan will break the cage and it's bigger than the DeltaPAG stuff.
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There are a lot of reasons why OEMs use certain parts

www.latimes.com

Ex-GM manager accused of taking $3 million in bribes from South Korean parts supplier

The former General Motors manager was arrested in Los Angeles on charges of taking more than $3 million in bribes from South Korean auto parts supplier
www.latimes.com www.latimes.com
 
WaterH said:
While I don’t know shit about fans. (Well actually I do), but the guy I sent my Spal brushless fan to test is very knowledgeable. (Electrical engineer) He has no axe to grind and he loves testing stuff. I’m sure he would test the PAG fan for no cost. I’m tempted to buy one and send it to him, but I already did that with the Spal brushless and that was a wasted $500. If PAG would agree to loan me a fan, I would set it up with this guy.

I also have no problem with Hydrodynamic, but I could see where PAG might feel he is biased.

As far as my knowledge concerning fans, I don’t know shit about the electrical end of it, but I did consult with a fan engineer in Australia about a cooling fan on a helicopter. Based on that discussion, I found out that fans can be optimized to move air or create air pressure. I would say the the PAG fan design would be good for moving air, but not for creating air pressure. So it may work great in a front automotive application. Probably not as good for a rear or side radiator that does not see any ram air. Also, a crawler may not have enough ram air to help even in the front. I would say it needs to be in a “puller configuration“ for sure.
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Hey, I got an idea, return the Spal fan for a refund and buy the Delta PAG. Even if they don't give you 100% of your money back, the 18" Delta PAG is only $425. I'm sure if you call Spal and insist, they'll give some kinda refund. Delta PAG has a refund policy and its only 20% restocking.
 
DeltaPAG ......

How about you stick to facts and good technical information? Show people what you know about "why" the post about your amps is right/wrong (Spal vs Delta amps & flow).

Show us what the guts may look like. Explain why the Delta fan can flow XXX despite being a narrower/shallower fan. If WaterH's friend is using wrong testing values or methods ... explain why and what could be done to even out the information. That kinda stuff.

Being a tiny bit of a snark like the Wendy's twitter person isn't going to impress many people. The Delta website lacks good solid info, which the average PAYING tech-head tends to crave. Getting famous people to run your stuff isn't an automatic tell-tale sign that you have a good product. Esp if Mr Semi-Famous racer is getting parts for free or heavily discounted (in exchange for exposure).
 
DeltaPAGJohn

Very cool that you have your products on drag racing cars. Some of those pics look to be from Drag Week, which means they drive them from race to race.

Are you just in the drag world right now? Are you looking to branch out into other forms of motorsports?

I agree with EndlessMtnFab , don't get in a pissing match here. Bring the tech. Everyone in this thread would like nothing more than to find a better product.
 
Some drag cars and pulling tractors don’t even use radiators because the runs are so quick. The water in the block and or reservoir can absorb the heat load for a short burst.
The sponsored drag car will force air through the radiator at speed and could possibly be faster than the blades can even pull the air due to fan rpm limitations. At that point the fan becomes a restriction. Forced air is doing all the cooling. This is chance for the PAG to shine as the blades and motor are super thin and the air can pass by them and the fan stays out of the way.
If they do need continuous cooling, it would be at idle heat loads not anywhere near full power. At that point this is we’re the PAG has a chance to shine because it has a large coverage area for the giant radiator and is lightweight so it doesn’t add unnecessary weight to the car.
It also looks like the fin spacing on the giant radiator is very open to allow high speed air to move through it so it doesn’t become a restriction.
Almost everything about the PAG sponsored drag car application doesn’t apply to an Ultra4 car.
 
DeltaPAGJohn said:
Hey, I got an idea, return the Spal fan for a refund and buy the Delta PAG. Even if they don't give you 100% of your money back, the 18" Delta PAG is only $425. I'm sure if you call Spal and insist, they'll give some kinda refund. Delta PAG has a refund policy and its only 20% restocking.
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You realize that was like 2 years ago. I doubt Spal would take it back. I would be embarrassed to ask them. In the case of the Spal, I needed fans for my car, so if it had worked, I would have bought another for the two fan system. Right now, I don’t need any fans, so it would be purely curiosity for me to do this.

The comparison that the guy did for me was all 10” fans because that was the size on the car. Since your smallest fan is 12”, there would have to be some allowances made. My friend is such an egghead, he would probably still do it.

I would be courious to run the Spal fan blade on your motor if that could be arrange. Then it would be straight out amps to turn a specific rpm.
 
One of my Buick buddies has a dual DeltaPAG fan on his 87 Grand National and is very pleased with it.

I have one on my 65 Vista Cruiser with an 87 Grand National turbo V6. I ended up not using the controller but it works well triggered by my ecm. Pulls a lot of air. I have not measured amp draw. It works way better than the stock GN fan I was using. It did not fix all but I have an intercooler shroud right behind it and I think I need to get air out of the engine compartment better.
 
EndlessMtnFab said:
DeltaPAG ......

How about you stick to facts and good technical information? Show people what you know about "why" the post about your amps is right/wrong (Spal vs Delta amps & flow).

Show us what the guts may look like. Explain why the Delta fan can flow XXX despite being a narrower/shallower fan. If WaterH's friend is using wrong testing values or methods ... explain why and what could be done to even out the information. That kinda stuff.

Being a tiny bit of a snark like the Wendy's twitter person isn't going to impress many people. The Delta website lacks good solid info, which the average PAYING tech-head tends to crave. Getting famous people to run your stuff isn't an automatic tell-tale sign that you have a good product. Esp if Mr Semi-Famous racer is getting parts for free or heavily discounted (in exchange for exposure).
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Well this can get very very technical, but I'll keep it a obvious and simple as possible. I don't think its debatable to say that a Brushless motor is more efficient than a brushed motor. That's very well known fact. What a previous post eluded to (and is correct) is how can a old school brushed fan be more efficient than the Spal brushless. It really comes down to materials, design and technology.

The weakest link with all brushless is the motors require electronics to spin. Other than the electronics, the motors can last the life of the bearings, which something like 50,000hrs, huge. Electronics will not last anywhere near 50,000hours. Even the best of the best of electronics AECQ100 Grade 0 components only last around 8-9000hours at underhood temps. Delta PAG patented tech is very unique. They removed the electronics from the motor and made it a easily replaceable, waterproof module (ECM). That allowed the Delta PAG motor to be only 3" in diameter and massively reduce maintenance and down time. The smaller the hub, the higher efficiency since you don't need to compress the air as much to get the same volume. Think donut, do you want a large hole? The Spal brushless hubs are like 5" OD and the motor is heavy like a brick so they can pack all that shit in there. Its even wider and thicker than their brushed motors, huh?

Anyway, its a great business model to stuff the weakest link in the motor and not make it replaceable. Yay! you get the variable speed and soft-start but with a 5" hub the system way way more inefficient.

If you want to do some research on the topic, aerospace (GE & CFM) did a huge study on this with jet engine efficiency and bypass ratio. Similar principles.

Also, if you like hugging trees, Delta PAG's system, every 10,000 hours you just have to replace the module, not the entire fan. Far less plastic waste, less real estate for that plastic island.

That's only one glaring thing difference between Delta PAG and SPAL. Overall with Delta PAG you get a reliable, thinner, lighter & more efficient system.

btw what does a "Wendy's twitter person" mean? I mean, I like there burgers, Dave's double baby! but what does that have to do with cooling?
 
Wendy's has a twitter account that likes to trade snarky comments with other brands. Kinda like your sarcastic suggestion to go return something proven for something sight unseen.

You keep focusing on the brushed motor amps. I think this thread has moved beyond that and into full brushless territory. We already have a post clearly stating "both 14 inch fans are brushless" Post 23 if you need to check back. I think people (myself, included) are wanting to see more quantifiable proof and information.

Your information on the separate ECU is interesting. The small diameter motor is interesting ....but larger bearings tend to last longer because they're speed is different for the same given RPM. Don't know if that fully applies the fan motor -- but i assume there are bearings there too.

You might blind me for the briefest of moments with your perceived brilliance ....but there are clearly people that have the knowledge or experience to see thru the bullshit. And if the brilliance is that obvious --- then you're trying to sell something that isn't. I am not going to pull/cry the Yellow Star comment, but you're not doing the company you represent any favors.
 
EndlessMtnFab said:
Wendy's has a twitter account that likes to trade snarky comments with other brands. Kinda like your sarcastic suggestion to go return something proven for something sight unseen.

You keep focusing on the brushed motor amps. I think this thread has moved beyond that and into full brushless territory. We already have a post clearly stating "both 14 inch fans are brushless" Post 23 if you need to check back. I think people (myself, included) are wanting to see more quantifiable proof and information.

Your information on the separate ECU is interesting. The small diameter motor is interesting ....but larger bearings tend to last longer because they're speed is different for the same given RPM. Don't know if that fully applies the fan motor -- but i assume there are bearings there too.

You might blind me for the briefest of moments with your perceived brilliance ....but there are clearly people that have the knowledge or experience to see thru the bullshit. And if the brilliance is that obvious --- then you're trying to sell something that isn't. I am not going to pull/cry the Yellow Star comment, but you're not doing the company you represent any favors.
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I wasn't being sarcastic, not sure youre using that word correctly. I didnt know the purchase it was two years old. Every company has a return policy and you can return anything. You can return Spal products, right?

Yes, clearly the customer proved that it wasn't as efficient as the brushed counterpart. Is that what you mean by proven?

I believe you didn't understand my point on brushed vs brushless. let me try to be very clear. Brushless is significantly more efficient than brushed. Right? Based on Spal's own numbers, same company, same manufacturer, Their brushless fan is less efficient than their brushed? There is clearly something wrong there. I understand what's wrong, other collogues/engineers understand too.

What quantifiable proof. Delta PAG provide the same performance data as any other company. They are also used is some very very demanding applications

I'm not sure what bearings have anything to do with this? the size of bearings is dependent on the weight of the rotor. Yeah, if you have a huge rotor, you're going to need large bearings. OK... Im not sure, please clarify. Also, don't get sidetracked on bearings. Think smaller hub, higher efficiency. That's a blatant difference between the two products. Stick with that and see where that leads you. There are other factors that go into this, such as core utilization, but for simplicity lets leave that out.

I'm not trying to blind you, if common sense is blinding, then that's another issue. I hope there are people with knowledge on this board and they will most likely understand my points. I'm not trying to sell anything, someone asked me a question on efficiency and I'm doing my best to try to answer it. If you want to continue to purchase one product over the other, knock yourself out. I don't care. Simple and absolute fact.

Delta PAG Brushless fans are more efficient than Spal brushless.
 
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DeltaPAGJohn said:
I wasn't being sarcastic, not sure youre using that word correctly. I didnt know the purchase it was two years old. Every company has a return policy and you can return anything. You can return Spal products, right?

Yes, clearly the customer proved that it wasn't as efficient as the brushed counterpart. Is that what you mean by proven?

I believe you didn't understand my point on brushed vs brushless. let me try to be very clear. Brushless is significantly more efficient than brushed. Right? Based on Spal's own numbers, same company, same manufacturer, Their brushless fan is less efficient than their brushed? There is clearly something wrong there. I understand what's wrong, other collogues/engineers understand too.

What quantifiable proof. Delta PAG provide the same performance data as any other company. They are also used is some very very demanding applications

I'm not sure what bearings have anything to do with this? the size of bearings is dependent on the weight of the rotor. Yeah, if you have a huge rotor, you're going to need large bearings. OK... Im not sure, please clarify. Also, don't get sidetracked on bearings. Think smaller hub, higher efficiency. That's a blatant difference between the two products. Stick with that and see where that leads you. There are other factors that go into this, such as core utilization, but for simplicity lets leave that out.

I'm not trying to blind you, if common sense is blinding, then that's another issue. I hope there are people with knowledge on this board and they will most likely understand my points. I'm not trying to sell anything, someone asked me a question on efficiency and I'm doing my best to try to answer it. If you want to continue to purchase one product over the other, knock yourself out. I don't care. Simple and absolute fact.

Delta PAG Brushless fans are more efficient that Spal brushless.
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This is a OFF ROAD forum, it has OFF ROAD specific concerns.

YOU have a opportunity to have some influence on A LOT of people in the OFF ROAD community if you can prove what you say.

Vendors here buy YELLOW SKULLS to rep their wares on the dolts, you are no different (keep that in mind).
 
DeltaPAGJohn said:
I wasn't being sarcastic, not sure youre using that word correctly. I didnt know the purchase it was two years old. Every company has a return policy and you can return anything. You can return Spal products, right?

Yes, clearly the customer proved that it wasn't as efficient as the brushed counterpart. Is that what you mean by proven?

I believe you didn't understand my point on brushed vs brushless. let me try to be very clear. Brushless is significantly more efficient than brushed. Right? Based on Spal's own numbers, same company, same manufacturer, Their brushless fan is less efficient than their brushed? There is clearly something wrong there. I understand what's wrong, other collogues/engineers understand too.

What quantifiable proof. Delta PAG provide the same performance data as any other company. They are also used is some very very demanding applications

I'm not sure what bearings have anything to do with this? the size of bearings is dependent on the weight of the rotor. Yeah, if you have a huge rotor, you're going to need large bearings. OK... Im not sure, please clarify. Also, don't get sidetracked on bearings. Think smaller hub, higher efficiency. That's a blatant difference between the two products. Stick with that and see where that leads you. There are other factors that go into this, such as core utilization, but for simplicity lets leave that out.

I'm not trying to blind you, if common sense is blinding, then that's another issue. I hope there are people with knowledge on this board and they will most likely understand my points. I'm not trying to sell anything, someone asked me a question on efficiency and I'm doing my best to try to answer it. If you want to continue to purchase one product over the other, knock yourself out. I don't care. Simple and absolute fact.

Delta PAG Brushless fans are more efficient that Spal brushless.
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I do think you need a yellow star. Surely you have straight up test results. Show this stuff. Hell I can claim to be better than someone else. Proof is in the facts.
 
I'm not hung up on anything (like bearings). I am just giving an example of what could be my (or some other schlub's) thought process.
And yes .... I do perceive that as sarcasm. If you can take the time to answer stuff ... you can take the time to fully read what is being asked or said. If you're telling me you didn't see that .... that you don't really have any business trying to 'help' as it only creates confusion.

CarterKraft hit the nail on the head. This is an off-road forum (fast or slow) . We have different requirements. Why not tell us what you have that meets those requirements. Clearly, the separate ECU product does (low speed, high loads crawling = lots of heat). But past that, I haven't seen you say anything like "our mounts offer more support than Dolly Parton's underwires" or " we are currently designing a fan that is deeper for greater low speed air movement" or anything along those lines.

I've been moving away from the idea of a mechanical fan on my own Jeep. I still believe in the superior cooling of such a setup. However, the motor I am using significantly offsets the fan that somewhere between 1/3 - 1/2 the blade is past the edge of the radiator. Those are the kind of assholes you need to convince --- and you are schwinging & mishing.
 
CarterKraft said:
This is a OFF ROAD forum, it has OFF ROAD specific concerns.

YOU have a opportunity to have some influence on A LOT of people in the OFF ROAD community if you can prove what you say.

Vendors here buy YELLOW SKULLS to rep their wares on the dolts, you are no different (keep that in mind).
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Oh, is that was the "yellow star" thing was. I thought everyone was calling me chicken.
EndlessMtnFab said:
I'm not hung up on anything (like bearings). I am just giving an example of what could be my (or some other schlub's) thought process.
And yes .... I do perceive that as sarcasm. If you can take the time to answer stuff ... you can take the time to fully read what is being asked or said. If you're telling me you didn't see that .... that you don't really have any business trying to 'help' as it only creates confusion.

CarterKraft hit the nail on the head. This is an off-road forum (fast or slow) . We have different requirements. Why not tell us what you have that meets those requirements. Clearly, the separate ECU product does (low speed, high loads crawling = lots of heat). But past that, I haven't seen you say anything like "our mounts offer more support than Dolly Parton's underwires" or " we are currently designing a fan that is deeper for greater low speed air movement" or anything along those lines.

I've been moving away from the idea of a mechanical fan on my own Jeep. I still believe in the superior cooling of such a setup. However, the motor I am using significantly offsets the fan that somewhere between 1/3 - 1/2 the blade is past the edge of the radiator. Those are the kind of assholes you need to convince --- and you are schwinging & mishing.
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First of all! nothing is as powerful as Dolly Parton's underwires. NASA is still trying to reverse engineer that wire so they can make a space elevator.
 
Got a yellow star? And a link to a catalog is pimping. Get a star or fuck off.
 
arse_sidewards said:
And re-works his cooling passage every couple seasons which comes out to about 20mi in 1/4mi increments. :laughing:
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Those application, those racecars drive on regular roads +1,000 miles per race. They usually do 3-4 races a year. Yeah that's +2,000hp idling behind grandma going to the store. Yeah you need a good cooling system to do that.

Most 1/4 mile dragsters don't need cooling system. These dragweek races, you definitely do.
 
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