Cooling Fan Tech

[DeltaPAGJohn]

John ....

Elsewhere on the net, you state the construction differences between the SPAL & PAG units. Notably, the outer rotor vs inner rotor design. You even go so far as to say that one major disadvantage is that you can't waterproof the outer rotor style (which is what PAG uses). On your website, you're clearly (now) stating that the motor is waterproof. New design or something else going on?

Yeah it is a disadvantage. To overcome this you have to pot, coat and encapsulate a bunch of things (that takes time and money)
Water, air, mud can go into the motor, its just not a problem. it never was. Well... maybe it was one time when we used bearings with shit seals on a Polaris application with the fan laying flat. That guy was dunking that fan under muddy water all the time. Anyway we got that resolved quickly.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Yeah it is a disadvantage. To overcome this you have to pot, coat and encapsulate a bunch of things (that takes time and money)
Water, air, mud can go into the motor, its just not a problem. it never was. Well... maybe it was one time when we used bearings with shit seals on a Polaris application with the fan laying flat. That guy was dunking that fan under muddy water all the time. Anyway we got that resolved quickly.

Fair enough.

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

Why are semi truck radiators really thick if thinner is better ?

Who knows, why are semi trucks still using enormous mechanical fans with even more enormous and expensive hydraulic clutches? That's an enormous waste of power, fuel, ect.

We've done a bunch of class 8 retrofits an array of 4 16" fans

The replacement of the stock e-hydro clutches costs as much as our quad set up

 

[Bebop]

Who knows, why are semi trucks still using enormous mechanical fans with even more enormous and expensive hydraulic clutches? That's an enormous waste of power, fuel, ect.

Engineers are just dumb, honestly.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Engineers are just dumb, honestly.

They're constantly optimizing for shit that doesn't actually matter for the products use in the real world or being sleazy and sacrificing something that does matter to achieve some KPI that doesn't.

 

[Bebop]

They're constantly optimizing for shit that doesn't actually matter for the products use in the real world or being sleazy and sacrificing something that does matter to achieve some KPI that doesn't.

Yeahhhh, like proper cooling.

They should all go to 1" single core rads and 4 Delta fans.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Yeahhhh, like proper cooling.

They should all go to 1" single core rads and 4 Delta fans.

Pretty much all the applications he's posted are in the "extreme weight savings" end of things so I get why they want big thin cores and big thin slow fans that can be powered with dainty little alternators.

Still doesn't make it right for an off road vehicle.

 

[Bebop]

Pretty much all the applications he's posted are in the "extreme weight savings" end of things so I get why they want big thin cores and big thin slow fans that can be powered with dainty little alternators.

Still doesn't make it right for an off road vehicle.

Agreed.

The whole debate is stupid. I have switched from a dual 1" core rad to a dual 1.5" core and saw cooling performance improve. Rad is thicker, holds more water, and overall works better.

 

[CarterKraft]

The spec that always surprises new techs at the CAT house is the ideal temp drop from inlet to outlet on a CAT machine with full open thermostat.

Any guesses as to what that Delta should be?

 

[Will Scarlet]

I have no opinion one way or the other towards what DeltaPAGJohn has been saying here, but I will say there are always people out there that find different ways to do things that goes against conventional wisdom. Take Smokey Yumick's hot vapor engine:

What Ever Happened To Smokey's Hot-Vapor Engine? - Hot Rod Magazine

What Ever Happened To Smokey's Hot-Vapor Engine? Well HOT ROD finally has the answers you need. Only at www.hotrod.com, the official website for Hot Rod Magazine.

www.motortrend.com

It goes against everything hot rod enthusiasts and engineers "know". It worked, but never went anywhere for multiple reasons.

What I'm getting at here is John could be right. But he needs to step up is game and give the complete details of why his way works. Saying it works is one thing, showing it works and giving details of why is another.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

I have no opinion one way or the other towards what DeltaPAGJohn has been saying here, but I will say there are always people out there that find different ways to do things that goes against conventional wisdom. Take Smokey Yumick's hot vapor engine:

What Ever Happened To Smokey's Hot-Vapor Engine? - Hot Rod Magazine

What Ever Happened To Smokey's Hot-Vapor Engine? Well HOT ROD finally has the answers you need. Only at www.hotrod.com, the official website for Hot Rod Magazine.

www.motortrend.com

It goes against everything hot rod enthusiasts and engineers "know". It worked, but never went anywhere for multiple reasons.

What I'm getting at here is John could be right. But he needs to step up is game and give the complete details of why his way works. Saying it works is one thing, showing it works and giving details of why is another.

Article states it best: Per Trish Yunick " You want to reveal just enough information to get the patent, but not so much that people can reverse-engineer your ideas."


I understand wanting to protect your product. But overprotection comes off looking like snake oil or something to hide. Especially if little factual information is provided or excessive use of buzzwords.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Quote from Brent at Spal directed to PAG. Brent is an application engineer and very helpful when you need support.

“The real underlying argument is at what working point or pressure ranges are our two respective fan brands the most efficient. SPAL makes high power consuming fans for high flow at increased pressures. We don't make ceiling fans. Delta Pag makes fans that provide high flow at lower static pressures, and as a result, less power consumption is required from the fan. This isn't arguable based on the design features of the Delta Pag fan, with the smaller diameter motor, and the narrow S blade design. We have fans that use a similar 'S' blade geometry, and they work well for applications where the static pressure requirements are lower. 30102049 for example. But that particular blade design doesn't result in high efficiencies when operating at greater static pressures, so we have many different motor and blade designs.”

“When are you guys making a fan that doesn't use the thin curved 'S' blade? Please don't tell me that this blade is 'the most amazing thing' and that 'you'll never need something more.' (If that were true, all vehicles would use this design and they certainly don't.) The thin curved 'S' blade design is the lowest performing blade design we offer and is simply a compromise on a straight blade in an attempt to reduce noise. When are you guys going to investigate a more aggressive blade design?”

 

[Will Scarlet]

Article states it best: Per Trish Yunick " You want to reveal just enough information to get the patent, but not so much that people can reverse-engineer your ideas."


I understand wanting to protect your product. But overprotection comes off looking like snake oil or something to hide. Especially if little factual information is provided or excessive use of buzzwords.

I agree, but the difference here is Smokey didn't have to give up the secret sauce to prove that it did work. He showed it with a couple of vehicles and then backed it up with the data from those vehicles compared with the stock versions.

We need the data that shows whether DeltaPAGJohn theories are correct. I think the perfect way to show it is a comparison with his system against conventional wisdom on any vehicle of choice. Show the data from at least one vehicle that ran both systems to show if his theory is correct. We don't have to understand it completely, but we need to see data that shows one way or the other.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

From what I can gather from John’s comments is in order to run the PAG at higher pressures that most off-road cores require is to increase fan speed. Increasing rpm lowers efficiency as the blade is not designed for higher pressures. The slower spinning blade area near the rotor is spinning too slow in relation to the outer tip of the blade. The result is an uneven pressure area across the core with a dead spot near the rotor which negates the benefits of a small motor design.
The other problem that no one has heard of is the NOISE.
Turning up the rpm or speed on thin blades to compensate creates a higher frequency noise similar to a drone. The kind of noise that you can’t hear over or think straight after awhile and reminds you of a dentist drill. A slower spinning blade with a variable pitch designed for uniform pressure creates a much lower frequency that you can talk over and can even be soothing. The industrial fruit dryer I designed had 36 of the Spal 16” 500W fans running full speed and you could stand next to it all day and have a conversation without loosing your mind.
Another friend was running an old Spal thin S blade with brushed motor and was overheating so I sent him a drop in replacement brushless with the deep blade design. First words out of his mouth how quiet it was, he could actually hear his kids in the backseat. Second was that it never got hot again.
There is so much more to an efficient cooling system than saving a few watts.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

The Off Road community may not seem high tech from the outside but I can assure you it can hold it's own.

Been seeing/responding to replies here and this particular comment really stuck in my head.

I would venture to say that the rest of the automotive industry (muscle cars, japanese sports, etc) may have more engineering or aftermarket support than we do. HOWEVER .... I have found that, by and large, the offroad industry has far more knowledgable enthusiasts. The amount of fabrication, theory, and design I see here exceed much of what you see on many other enthusiast forums.

I'm not saying that a Chevelle board is full of dummies. You might have 1 or 2 exceedingly talented individuals, but then the rest of the gang is very average or maybe below average in their skills or knowledge. I'd have to say that is NOT the case here. Unless you want to add JeepForum to that mix. Then ... we are fucked.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

While the anecdotal references help understand some overall design theories applied by different companies, between the product spec document that John posted earlier and what SPAL publishes, it looks like we have enough info to make some pretty direct comparisons. I may be missing some critical factors, if so please bring it up to help me (and others) understand.

The DeltaPAG product specs: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2015/2657/files/DeltaPAG_Cataloge.pdf?v=1630768433

And the specs on their 16" brushless:

SPAL Engineering details: Adobe Acrobat

SPAL 16" brushless:

So from what I'm deducing, we can choose a static pressure to look at and make a pretty direct correlation between them. For example if we want to look at the specs of each 16" fan pulling at .8" static pressure (200Pa for the SPAL chart), we can see that:

-For the Delta PAG 16" operating at 0.8" H20 static pressure, we can see the specs claim it will be pulling just north of 2,700 CFM at 17-18 amps, while spinning around 2860 RPMs and operating around 49% efficiency.

-For the SPAL 16" operating at the same 0.8" H2o (200 Pa) static pressure, the specs claim it will be pulling aroung 1530 CFM (2600 Cubic meters per hour on the chart) at about 30 amps, at around 34% efficiency (no RPM specs besides max RPM).

Am I interpreting these charts correctly? I was expecting quite a bit more correlation, to the point that I think I may be missing something. Of course I'm not making any claims to the accuracy of these charts, and maybe one of you sees something on them you would like to challenge. But interesting stuff all around

 

[chaplinfj60]

i would agree, we dabble in alot more than bolting on some remodeled fenders to dress up a chevelle or do a LS swap on said car. we do it all, maybe not to perfection but we try to learn all we can for sure

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

I have no opinion one way or the other towards what DeltaPAGJohn has been saying here, but I will say there are always people out there that find different ways to do things that goes against conventional wisdom. Take Smokey Yumick's hot vapor engine:

What Ever Happened To Smokey's Hot-Vapor Engine? - Hot Rod Magazine

What Ever Happened To Smokey's Hot-Vapor Engine? Well HOT ROD finally has the answers you need. Only at www.hotrod.com, the official website for Hot Rod Magazine.

www.motortrend.com

It goes against everything hot rod enthusiasts and engineers "know". It worked, but never went anywhere for multiple reasons.

What I'm getting at here is John could be right. But he needs to step up is game and give the complete details of why his way works. Saying it works is one thing, showing it works and giving details of why is another.

Hey Will, Its fine, We have plenty of race teams and high performance clients that test and use our cooling systems in some of the most demanding applications. Probably more demanding than what most of the readers here will ever experience. Our technology has been proven in CAD/CFD modeling, then prototype "lab" tested & then empirically testing. Just like very tech. Below is a beautiful corvette that uses our cooling system for many years. It runs an 872 CID nitrous motor. This runs dual Delta PAG 16" brushless fans and our radiator. The first radiator we made used dual 1.25 tubes. The latest radiator it's running Delta PAGs new Mono-Core radiator. Same exact size, same exact setup just thinner core. Thinner, lighter & Cools better. More and more teams are adopting our technology and we're getting data in every day that's confirming our computer simulations. Its just legacy products/ways have been out for such a long time... its going to take time.

The way I see it, its been done wrong for such a long time, some people will understand or reluctantly try and eventually switch over. Then there are some people, so set in their ways, will go to their death bed thinking the earth is flat. Its OK, these things take time.

 

[Bebop]

I'm gonna repeat.

Drag racing is NOT a good test bed for offroading.

You are still avoiding posting actual facts and engineering data.

Explain to us, with actual technical data, formulas, scientific research, why a single 1" core rad is better than a triple 1" rad for the same core surface.

 

[crazybluerider]

Probably more demanding than what most of the readers here will ever experience.

This is where you have us fucked up. Pushing that car down the highway at 60 or even 100 is in no way comparable to pushing a vehicle with 40" or larger tires with the aerodynamics of a brick through the desert. I understand that that engine is difficult to cool for a number of reason but when the cooling system actually matters for the drag and drive group is on the highway between races and that is fairly low demand comparatively to where most of us need our cooling systems to work. When my cooling system is most taxed I am typically 100% floored for several minutes at a time using all the horsepower that I have available to push through dirt or silt, not cruising at 10% throttle in a low drag car on a low drag surface.

How would that same corvette's cooling system fair if the car was run at 200 mph for an hour at a time? That is a more fair comparison to what we typically do.

To be clear I'm not debating your less tubes = more cooling, we can get to that later. Just the assumption that that car is more challenging to cool than your typical 4wd vehicle for the same end of the build spectrum. On this site you will find a lot of vehicle in the same end of the pool as that car just in a different discipline.

 

[Bebop]

How would that same corvette's cooling system fair if the car was run at 200 mph for an hour at a time? That is a more fair comparison to what we typically do.

There would be massive ram air at this speed.
Offroad is still more demanding than this.

 

[crazybluerider]

There would be massive ram air at this speed.
Offroad is still more demanding than this.

Read my edit.

 

[Bebop]

Read my edit.

Edit faster

 

[RustyC]

Let's throw in another off-road application. "One I have never done but would love to"
SNOW WHEELING. High engine load factor, very high temp delta, low vehicle speed / air speed assist.

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

This is where you have us fucked up. Pushing that car down the highway at 60 or even 100 is in no way comparable to pushing a vehicle with 40" or larger tires with the aerodynamics of a brick through the desert. I understand that that engine is difficult to cool for a number of reason but when the cooling system actually matters for the drag and drive group is on the highway between races and that is fairly low demand comparatively to where most of us need our cooling systems to work. When my cooling system is most taxed I am typically 100% floored for several minutes at a time using all the horsepower that I have available to push through dirt or silt, not cruising at 10% throttle in a low drag car on a low drag surface.

How would that same corvette's cooling system fair if the car was run at 200 mph for an hour at a time? That is a more fair comparison to what we typically do.

To be clear I'm not debating your less tubes = more cooling, we can get to that later. Just the assumption that that car is more challenging to cool than your typical 4wd vehicle for the same end of the build spectrum. On this site you will find a lot of vehicle in the same end of the pool as that car just in a different discipline.

This particular application has be in traffic in over an hour in 95deg temps. Stop & go, very little or no ram air. Most drag & drive racers find themselves in traffic situations, creeping huge horsepower. Traffic is apart of life now a day.

Think about it. 872 CID, idling at 1,500rpms, stop and go for an hour. It's equivalent to a 440 idling at 3,000 rpms.

The main point here, is on this very demanding application, a thinner core cooled better vs a thicker, exact same size radiator (only thing that changed was the radiator thickness). I'm not sure if we ever built anything of a heavy duty off roader, probably. They just never shared data. I don't have empirical data on every type of driving condition, no company does. If I had empirical data on your exact setup and driving condition, well... it would be in your car now and you'd be convinced.

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

I'm gonna repeat.

Drag racing is NOT a good test bed for offroading.

You are still avoiding posting actual facts and engineering data.

Explain to us, with actual technical data, formulas, scientific research, why a single 1" core rad is better than a triple 1" rad for the same core surface.

Our Mono-Core radiators are not 1", they're thicker than that. They're 1 row but we had to tool for tubing at a particular depth, thickness, ect.

There is no formula, unless you consider navier stokes equations found in CFD software. To come up with our conclusion. you have to run simulation in CFD software, which also include finite element analysis (FEA) which are variables and assumptions that interact and are the only factors is your universe. There is no single formula for a simulation. Even if I show you my laptop running the simulation, you'll have no idea what i'm showing you. Its not 2+2=4, then you'll look at it and say "oh, yup, that checks out, 4"

Our company publishes the same data as any other company. Do you have any equations stating that a thick radiator is better? Or are you think of this like a caveman "Ooohh bigger, heavy, thicker, more tubes, more, more is goood uga uga yaba daba doo"

Look, don't worry about it, do it your way. I'm also a firm believer if it works don't fix it.

 

[Bebop]

Our Mono-Core radiators are not 1", they're thicker than that. They're 1 row but we had to tool for tubing at a particular depth, thickness, ect.

What thickness and depth are we talking about ?

There is no formula, unless you consider navier stokes equations found in CFD software. To come up with our conclusion. you have to run simulation in CFD software, which also include finite element analysis (FEA) which are variables and assumptions that interact and are the only factors is your universe. There is no single formula for a simulation.

So you're telling me that you can't manually model the heat transfer behavior of a radiator based on its design ?

Even if I show you my laptop running the simulation, you'll have no idea what i'm showing you.

Try me

Its not 2+2=4, then you'll look at it and say "oh, yup, that checks out, 4"

That's not what I asked.

Our company publishes the same data as any other company.

What are the dimensions of the tube / core of the radiators you're selling?
Most companies will tell you that the core is 1", 1.25", 1.5" or 19mm or whatever size.

Do you have any equations stating that a thick radiator is better? Or are you think of this like a caveman "Ooohh bigger, heavy, thicker, more tubes, more, more is goood uga uga yaba daba doo"

Look, don't worry about it, do it your way. I'm also a firm believer if it works don't fix it.

This right here is why I am 100% certain that your products suck.
If they were technically better, you could explain, in plain english, why they are.
Instead you're here, trying to make fun of the thickest skinned people that still gather on forums. Won't work.

Bro (allow me this familiarity since you're treating me like I'm a moron), publishing 3 screenshots of some CAD work means nothing in this world unless you can put words and real data behind it.

On the other hand, this attitude tells us everything we need to you,

You're a wanker.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Bro (allow me this familiarity since you're treating me like I'm a maroon), publishing 3 screenshots of some CAD work means nothing in this world unless you can put words behind it. On the other hand, this attitude tells us everything we need to you,

Cut him some slack. Clearly he spends all his time on the LS swap forums

 

[Bebop]

Cut him some slack. Clearly he spends all his time on the LS swap forums

He needs to go back to LS1tech.com, for sure

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Think about it. 872 CID, idling at 1,500rpms, stop and go for an hour. It's equivalent to a 440 idling at 3,000 rpms.

Driving a car like that on the LIE or North Shore or South Shore or VanWyck is NOT the same load. I don't care how much scientific or empirical evidence you try to present. There's no load on the motor. Just lack of heat rejection due to the shape of the engine bay and possible vent options.

Is it a tough load for the motor? You bet. Especially when it's 95° with 95% humidity.

But it's not the same as 3500 RPM at 2.24 miles per hour wedge up against a rock. Or (as already mentioned) breaking deep snow in the Pacific Northwest. The desert/go-fast guys get a pass because, well .... fuck them. Mud is not a fair comparison because it will clog anything up.

Few of us are even factoring in the heat load created by an auto trans line. Or the air flow restriction of an A/C condenser, transcooler, power steering cooler, or even all three (in front of the radiator, of course). EDIT Oh ..... didn't even think of a nice big bulky winch. Your fancy 872 HP customer isn't likely to have that many demands at one time.