WaterH
Well-known member
So your saying that the old radiator is just two of your mono cores stacked? Or are you saying the mono core is a different design?
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Cooling Fan Tech
- Thread starter HYDRODYNAMIC
- Start date
So your saying that the old radiator is just two of your mono cores stacked? Or are you saying the mono core is a different design?
DeltaPAGJohn
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Driving a car like that on the LIE or North Shore or South Shore or VanWyck is NOT the same load. I don't care how much scientific or empirical evidence you try to present. There's no load on the motor. Just lack of heat rejection due to the shape of the engine bay and possible vent options.
Is it a tough load for the motor? You bet. Especially when it's 95° with 95% humidity.
But it's not the same as 3500 RPM at 2.24 miles per hour wedge up against a rock. Or (as already mentioned) breaking deep snow in the Pacific Northwest. The desert/go-fast guys get a pass because, well .... fuck them.Mud is not a fair comparison because it will clog anything up.
Few of us are even factoring in the heat load created by an auto trans line. Or the air flow restriction of an A/C condenser, transcooler, power steering cooler, or even all three (in front of the radiator, of course). EDIT Oh ..... didn't even think of a nice big bulky winch. Your fancy 872 HP customer isn't likely to have that many demands at one time.
The comparison is NOT about what vehicle (dragster or off roader) has more load, or heat profile of larger stack ect. Whatever the heat profile is, the comparison is pure and simple. same exact car, same fans, same surface area of radiator. All we did is go from dual 1.25 tubes (probably what most run) to single row Mono-core radiator. The thinner radiator cooled better. So whatever your application, heat profile ect. A thinner core, all else equal should cool better.
Except maybe for the 200mph constant speed, brick, that will probably not, I don't want to get into that. This conversation could get really complicated. But if you were following my previous posts, it has to do with saturation.
DeltaPAGJohn
Yellow Skull
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No, its not half exactly, but its not revolutionary different, We just found the goldielocks thickness (not to thin, not too thick), with the same tube spacing, alloys & fin density. and made it that thickness. Turns out its better. Meanwhile we make thousands of dual 1.25" radiators with our fans.
WaterH
Well-known member
I have no doubt that you can make a thin radiator run cooler than a thick one using different design or construction materials and such. But if you are trying make me believe another row of the same design will run hotter, you got a tough road to hoe. Of course if you are saying your fan is not up to pulling through two cores, I suppose that could be a legit argument. (I hope that’s not what your saying)
DeltaPAGJohn
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Even though I explained this earlier, let me switch it up a bit and try the Socratic method (asking simple, obvious questions to answer something more complex) :
Ok, you have two radiators; radiator1 is 12" thick and radiator2 is 2" thick. You move exactly 1000 cubic feet of air though both radiators in a minute. inlet air temperature is 50deg and outlet air temp is 100 deg for both radiators. Which radiator removed more heat from the system?
HYDRODYNAMIC
Rock Stacker
Your analysis of the experiment is flawed because you used your low pressure fan which requires less restriction for it to work. The cooling potential of the core is still there but your fan can not reach the systems full cooling capacity.
If you replace your fan with a properly design fan that can pull through the restriction you will find that the extra core width will increase cooling. Now drop it down to a 1/2" core and you will find that the cooling capacity is not there anymore.
You developed a fan and are trying to change the radiator market to fit your fan. I'm sure it will work for certain applications but not in off roading at the moment.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Do we need to know the coolant flow rate for these examples, same flow?
I don't think you are as full of shit as the others here.
I do think you are doing something different and that draws naysayers and criticisms.
I also think the applications for your current designs are different enough from the smaller packages in OEM chassis or placement restrictions from the offroad perspective.
Can we narow down to a vehicle or application on this board that might be popular, a radiator the same size as the frontal area of drag week car doesn't equate well here, regardless of actual technology you employed.
WaterH
Well-known member
I agree with that simple explanation, but that’s not what is happening. (At least not in any car I’ve been associated with) No cars i know of bring the water temp down to ambient.
Edit, on some more thinking, even in That example, the thicker radiator does not run hotter, just it’s way over capacity.
Bebop
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One more thing...
The best aftermarket radiator manufacturer in the world, C&R (they make radiators for F1, NASCAR and other actual high profile racing series) has a patented extruded core technology.
And guess what ? They use a lot of little tubes vs the 2 standard 1.25", for the same width.
Also, they don't mind sharing dimensions and posting pictures instead of calling you names on a forum.
C&R to the left, standard aftermarket 1.25" to the right.
And video explanation :
The best aftermarket radiator manufacturer in the world, C&R (they make radiators for F1, NASCAR and other actual high profile racing series) has a patented extruded core technology.
And guess what ? They use a lot of little tubes vs the 2 standard 1.25", for the same width.
Also, they don't mind sharing dimensions and posting pictures instead of calling you names on a forum.
C&R to the left, standard aftermarket 1.25" to the right.
And video explanation :
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Wouldn't all that be really obvious to John in testing?
What if his method actually provides more capacity if he is able to control the entire cooling system, pump radiator and fans?
EndlessMtnFab
Well-known member
Personally .... I'm not just focusing on the radiator thickness. I'm also looking at how fan efficiency and amp ratings were touted when it's not the only factor in our requirements/concerns.
So I'm questioning the big picture ... not just the radiator itself.
So I'm questioning the big picture ... not just the radiator itself.
WaterH
Well-known member
DeltaPAG,
I know it appears that you are being attacked here, but as I see it, you have two problems.
1. You are suggesting that Hydrodynamic is off base.
2. You are suggesting that Spal fans are of poor engineering.
I can tell you that Hydrodynamic has a reputation here, and it’s not a bad one. Half the guys on this site think I’m an idiot. The other half think I’m great. (I might be exaggerating on that last bit) In any case, no one is calling Hydro an idiot.
Also, Spal fans have a reputation. It’s kind of like Bose sound equipment. I’m not going to say they make the best, but you sure are going to have look far and wide to find better. Spal has big money behind them and if they thought you had some revolutionary benefits, they wouldn’t look into them?
I know it appears that you are being attacked here, but as I see it, you have two problems.
1. You are suggesting that Hydrodynamic is off base.
2. You are suggesting that Spal fans are of poor engineering.
I can tell you that Hydrodynamic has a reputation here, and it’s not a bad one. Half the guys on this site think I’m an idiot. The other half think I’m great. (I might be exaggerating on that last bit) In any case, no one is calling Hydro an idiot.
Also, Spal fans have a reputation. It’s kind of like Bose sound equipment. I’m not going to say they make the best, but you sure are going to have look far and wide to find better. Spal has big money behind them and if they thought you had some revolutionary benefits, they wouldn’t look into them?
DeltaPAGJohn
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No, what waterpump? The coolant flow rate and temperature of the coolant is the same for both radiators
I am referring to the inlet air temperature that is entering the fins and exiting the fins. Please answer the question.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
It seems clear if you had a LARGE thin radiator you wouldn't need fans with high suction pressure or low amp draw.
Now if the opposite was true?
Obviously John wouldn't design a small thick radiator if that model didn't fit his hardware, that doesn't make his hardware bad, doesn't really help us though...
Now if the opposite was true?
Obviously John wouldn't design a small thick radiator if that model didn't fit his hardware, that doesn't make his hardware bad, doesn't really help us though...
EndlessMtnFab
Well-known member
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
That core is very common on our machines now. Not really a "Race" thing I would say.Wonder what a universal fit (for SWB Jeep) would cost.
It might not be as expensive as you think if the core already exists.
$550?
Universal Radiators Archives
www.pwrna.com
And depending who you ask is not better than regular tubes...
Are Extruded Cooling Tubes Better
One radiator company is now touting a “revolutionary advancement in cooling technology”. A bold statement like this deserves to be investigated... What is this big break through? it is Extruded Cooling Tubes (ECT) and it is not that revolutionary. In fact it’s not even new, as this technology...
www.dewitts.com
EndlessMtnFab
Well-known member
Didn't think it was race specific ..... but with that popular buzz-word of "patented" floating around, I figured it wouldn't be made/sold/marketed by anyone else. Other than the Chinese, of course.
EndlessMtnFab
Well-known member
That core is very common on our machines now. Not really a "Race" thing I would say.
It might not be as expensive as you think if the core already exists.
$550?
Universal Radiators Archives
www.pwrna.com
And depending who you ask is not better than regular tubes...
Are Extruded Cooling Tubes Better
One radiator company is now touting a “revolutionary advancement in cooling technology”. A bold statement like this deserves to be investigated... What is this big break through? it is Extruded Cooling Tubes (ECT) and it is not that revolutionary. In fact it’s not even new, as this technology...
I got frustrated with the slow site and didn't really go nuts looking around. Saw some at 1000 dollars (vehicle specific) and just noped out.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Flex-a-lite pimps the same shit too.
flex-a-lite.com
Flex-A-Lite® Performance Tube Core Performance Radiators
The future of performance radiators is here now with superior cooling and strength thanks to Extruded Core Technology! Flex-A-Lite® aluminum radiators offer better cooling with stronger and more durable construction.
DeltaPAGJohn
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I don't know about Hydrodynamic:
-either he doesn't understand fluid dynamics, ironic considering his name
-or has drank too much of Spals cool-aid and doesnt want to hear anything else
-or has some vested interest in Spal products (sells spals products), or all the above.
Frankly, I don't care and I'm just going to ignore him and answer people that have a genuine questions.
Regarding Spal, I thing Spal made a product as best they can tip towing around everyone patents due to being late to the game. Their product is primarily good at very high pressures and as a result very inefficient. Saying you need to make your heat exchanger high pressure to justify the use of the Spal fan and Spal's brushless existence is silly. Please note most, if not all OEMs have core thicknesses of 1" or less.
Regarding "reputation", physics doesn't give a shit about reputation. This is not a high school cafeteria, its engineering.
Treefrog
Book Wheeler
I'll bite. 50 F delta T, at 1000 cubic feet/minute. Assuming standard atmo where needed. The system is cooling about 0.02 hp.
I was rooting for you until this comment. It's very apparent you dont have the slightest idea of what kind of off-roading most reading this thread do and the amount of demand it's puts on the rig. Most buggy cooling systems are unorthodox as far as being a "standard cooling setup and design".
I feel your knowledge is drag/street car bias. I have zero claims here to say I know all about cooling systems but being in both hobbies I can say my buggy was just as hard, if not harder (space and design) to keep cool as my 1000hp street car. Every pic you posted has a radiator that wouldn't fit in any buggy on this site. I was hoping you would start dropping knowledge for us all but your facts just circle and add more gray to the topic.
I don't doubt your product, I doubt your current product will solve a lot of our issues here. I do doubt your knowledge of this sport and if you're the guy to bring the PAG fans to the masses here. BUT it is an area where our sport/hobby needs more aftermarket backing so I'm still rooting for your company to bring us good quality products that work for our sport. Until then I'll be sticking with spal and c&r but as said, I'm rooting for you to learn our needs and for your company back that. Good luck.
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HYDRODYNAMIC
Rock Stacker
The art of science is how the data is interpolated. Set up the test how you want the outcome to be, then proceed and analyze data to match your desired outcome, then publish with as little data as possible. The government employs the people who are really good at this.
Its more of a immune response to attach parasites so it is fair to say he is under attack.
If I'm not off base from time to time then I am not learning. When you realize you could be an idiot then you have reached the next level of understanding. So I hope I'm and idiot from time to time.
Spal makes some really good products most being for OEM, that's how they sell around 4 million brushless fans a year. But most of the aftermarket catalogue is hand me downs from adapted OEM parts. Would be cool if they offered more options for the aftermarket but then we would complain that the price was too high to cover the R&D.
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DeltaPAGJohn
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Great! but which one is dissipating more heat? the 12" thick core or the 2" thick core?
I think your decimal places are wrong on the HP
Outahand
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My Fluke only goes to 15 amps and I can't find the clamp on at work to borrow.
No. I didn't join to plug Delta.
Seems like a good product. I do have a demanding application with the intercooler shroud right behind the fan and a turbo adding heat to the engine compartment. Like I said I think I need to get air out of the engine compartment better. Plus I bought the thickest 4 core radiator I could find
I ended up not using the Delta controller. He had a bad batch of thermistors and when mine failed, I hooked it up to ecm control. He sent another thermistor right away.
He really wanted me to use his controller but maybe I did not fully convey that although it was a 65 Olds wagon it has an 87 Buick Grand National motor that fully believes it is still in a GN. The ecm controls the electric fan and parameters are set in the chip.
I also fucked up and missed a ground wire and fried my first controller. Both times when I called he answered right away and helped me troubleshoot the problem quickly. No problem there.
If anyone wants to try one of his fans I'll give you a screaming deal on a controller
If I can find it that is....
Treefrog
Book Wheeler
Th
energy power in your example.
I don't think I got the decimal wrong, but I did most of the work in metric so I may slipped somewhere. It has been a while since I did any heat transfer math.
Edit: energy to power since there is rate involved.
They both dissipate the same amount of
I don't think I got the decimal wrong, but I did most of the work in metric so I may slipped somewhere. It has been a while since I did any heat transfer math.
Edit: energy to power since there is rate involved.
HYDRODYNAMIC
Rock Stacker
If the radiators are of similar construction then you can not set the inlet and outlet air temps and CFM the same.
You can set the inlet and outlet air temps the same if the radiators are of different design.
Your question is broken.
DeltaPAGJohn
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Yes, exactly they both dissipate the same amount of heat. Now since one radiator is 12" thick and the other radiator is 2" thick, will it take more energy to move 1000CFM through the 12" thick radiator vs the 2" thick radiator?
Treefrog
Book Wheeler
Face value, 2".
My turn for a loaded question. Are the radiators the same volume, same frontal area, or same internal surface area?
Edit: added same surface area
arse_sidewards
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If you have 100lb of feathers and 100lb of bricks....
I get what you're trying to say. Nobody is disputing that the thinner core removes more heat per weight.
We're saying that for a given volume of air the thicc core is gonna remove more heigh but it's gonna take more work the cram the air through it.