Cooling Fan Tech

[DeltaPAGJohn]

Why would you?

Just use more energy to move more air through the 12" thick one.

I really dont think you have the capacity to answer the question and understand the results. Yeah buddy, don't worry about it, yup the earth is flat

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

This statement I find very courious. You realize I can flip it to “Saying you need to make your exchanger less resistance to justify the use of a PAG fan is silly”

Every time I have bought a E-fan, I allready had my exchangers. So it sounds like you are saying “then you can’t use our fans”.

Thats fine, just state that up front. Before I was asking people to verify your amp draw claims. Now I think the more likly thing to verify is your cfm claims. I suppose they need to be verified with a restriction. I guess, to be fair, I should have compared the Spal fans with a restriction also.

Yes, agreed, unless its determined that having a very thick radiator is silly.

Most people don't have a 3.5"-4" thick radiator (but I have seen them), most aftermarket radiators are 2.2" thick and have about 0.6 inH2o static. Which is what we designed for. If you have an OEM application its way thinner. So majority of the radiators are within Delta PAG's spec. Now if you were duped into purchasing a 4" thick radiator, well... oops. Use it as a table stand and have someone build you a proper system.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

DeltaPAGJohn .... you continually focus on the radiator.

There is more to vehicle cooling than the radiator construction itself. I've already suggested the condenser and any additional oil-related coolers. Those will increase the static flow thru a radiator of ANY construction type. And a winch will further degrade the air flow dynamics.

Your fan flows best at your particular radiator standard/requirement. Fantastic. How about at our typical requirement? I'm sure you can find volunteers to donate parts (or you can write off new parts as a business expense). Get your typical aftermarket unnamed radiator in a test stand along with a condenser and maybe a small cooler. Show us how yours flows. Give numbers. Show what works & doesn't. Selling a fan that ONLY flows its best with YOUR radiator -- you're selling a system. Not a product. That will burn the un-informed.

 

[WaterH]

So, what your saying is the reason your amp draw is lower than Spal is because you design for less restriction? I’m OK with that, but when I’m shopping for a fan, I like to compare amps and cfm’s in a typical installation, if your saying your numbers are not based on that, it’s somewhat misleading.

On the subject of “thin being better”, why not make radiators 1/4” thick? Why not make them .100” thick? I know your response is going to be “why dont I make my radiator two foot thick?” My answer is I don’t need that much cooling.

You’ve mentioned the drag car several times. I had a friend with a full size Bronco. He pulled the 302 out and installed a 460. It ran hot. He figured it was because he had a 20 year old radiator. He bought a new one of the same size and it still ran hot. Then he bought a 4 core radiator and his problems were over. He didn’t install a more powerful fan. How do you explain that?

 

[CarterKraft]

You're missing my point which was answering this statement:


You can be a brilliant thermodynamics engineer and have no interest in building cooling systems.

Fair enough, I am trying to be generous.
I don't see the point of mutha fucking John to get him to explain himself.

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

DeltaPAGJohn .... you continually focus on the radiator.

There is more to vehicle cooling than the radiator construction itself. I've already suggested the condenser and any additional oil-related coolers. Those will increase the static flow thru a radiator of ANY construction type. And a winch will further degrade the air flow dynamics.

Your fan flows best at your particular radiator standard/requirement. Fantastic. How about at our typical requirement?

Yup, understood. You can stack a bunch of things in front of the radiator which will cause problems. I if we have a customer those constraints, we can adjust the radiator design, or increase the max speed of the fan, so max amp will not be 20 it will be 30, ect. But understand you're loosing efficiency running it there because your system wasn't properly designed. But we will not going to set the firmware running at an inefficient level for the remote possibility you have a ton of things stacked or you were duped into buying a crapy and overpriced radiator.

 

[Bebop]

Fair enough, I am trying to be generous.
I don't see the point of mutha fucking John to get him to explain himself.

Hey, he muthafucka'd me first, I'm just leveling down so he can understand

You’ve mentioned the drag car several times. I had a friend with a full size Bronco. He pulled the 302 out and installed a 460. It ran hot. He figured it was because he had a 20 year old radiator. He bought a new one of the same size and it still ran hot. Then he bought a 4 core radiator and his problems were over. He didn’t install a more powerful fan. How do you explain that?

Can't be.

Well, according to John...

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

So, what your saying is the reason your amp draw is lower than Spal is because you design for less restriction? I’m OK with that, but when I’m shopping for a fan, I like to compare amps and cfm’s in a typical installation, if your saying your numbers are not based on that, it’s somewhat misleading.

On the subject of “thin being better”, why not make radiators 1/4” thick? Why not make them .100” thick? I know your response is going to be “why dont I make my radiator two foot thick?” My answer is I don’t need that much cooling.

You’ve mentioned the drag car several times. I had a friend with a full size Bronco. He pulled the 302 out and installed a 460. It ran hot. He figured it was because he had a 20 year old radiator. He bought a new one of the same size and it still ran hot. Then he bought a 4 core radiator and his problems were over. He didn’t install a more powerful fan. How do you explain that?

There's no point trying to deduce CFM by looking at amps. Brushless is a different technology that is more efficient can you make it less efficient sure. The best comparison I can think of is determining the brightness of a lightbulb based on its watts consumed.

Ah, very good. Now it looks like you're thinking. Yup, making it super thin would be nice. But then you need to think about the coolant side of things. There are several "fluids" in play here and you need to account of all of them and its a tradeoff everywhere. I was just focusing on the radiator to make it simple.

I don't know buddy. There are many radiator manufactures that really sell garbage, poor alloys, construction, poor brazing job. We all heard people say that their buddy at the bar danced around their car clockwise with a feather cap, beating a drum and it then had 20 more horsepower.

 

[Wisconsinite]

But we will not going to set the firmware running at an inefficient level for the remote possibility you have a ton of things stacked

This is not a remote possibility. This is almost a requirement for most "jeepish" rigs that don't want coolers in the cab.

CBR 28 x 19 radiator

CBR trans cooler

Power steering cooler

What would deltaPAG do to increase my cooling system performance? Would you make the core thinner? This is still in progress, so I don't know if it will have issues or not. Just seeing what you would recommend.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

Yup, understood. You can stack a bunch of things in front of the radiator which will cause problems. I if we have a customer those constraints, we can adjust the radiator design, or increase the max speed of the fan, so max amp will not be 20 it will be 30, ect. But understand you're loosing efficiency running it there because your system wasn't properly designed. But we will not going to set the firmware running at an inefficient level for the remote possibility you have a ton of things stacked or you were duped into buying a crapy and overpriced radiator.

Nothing remote about those possibilties. That's the point I've been trying to make.

 

[EndlessMtnFab]

This is not a remote possibility. This is almost a requirement for most "jeepish" rigs that don't want coolers in the cab.

Hey you ! Get outta here. I brought that up and it was my point to make.


( at least someone agrees with me)

 

[chaplinfj60]

.

This is not a remote possibility. This is almost a requirement for most "jeepish" rigs that don't want coolers in the cab.

CBR 28 x 19 radiator

CBR trans cooler

Power steering cooler

What would deltaPAG do to increase my cooling system performance? Would you make the core thinner? This is still in progress, so I don't know if it will have issues or not. Just seeing what you would recommend.

this is my earlier point. how can it benefit our setups.

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

.

this is my earlier point. how can it benefit our setups.

I have no idea. It takes alot of CAD work to design something that will work well. But I am curious of how that turns out. Is it driven on regular roads?

 

[Wisconsinite]

I have no idea. It takes alot of CAD work to design something that will work well. But I am curious of how that turns out. Is it driven on regular roads?

This isn't done yet, but yes, it will be driven on roads. We sell chassis kits, and the cooling system we sell is very similar to this. We have literally hundreds of chassis kits out there, and sell radiators and cooling packages on the regular. This is pretty effective for most applications, but as with anything, there is always room for improvement.

That is a $1200 rad and fan combo, $700 trans cooler, and probably a $200 power steering cooler. If you designed a product that would work for our applications and PROVE it on a KOH or ultra 4 car, I feel you could get a lot of new off road customers. Cooling is always a concern when you have a 500 hp engine at 100% engine loads for exteded periods of time.

I am not going to get into an argument about this or that, but please understand the rigors of what we put our rigs through is not in the same realm of road only cars.

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

This isn't done yet, but yes, it will be driven on roads. We sell chassis kits, and the cooling system we sell is very similar to this. We have literally hundreds of chassis kits out there, and sell radiators and cooling packages on the regular. This is pretty effective for most applications, but as with anything, there is always room for improvement.

That is a $1200 rad and fan combo, $700 trans cooler, and probably a $200 power steering cooler. If you designed a product that would work for our applications and PROVE it on a KOH or ultra 4 car, I feel you could get a lot of new off road customers. Cooling is always a concern when you have a 500 hp engine at 100% engine loads for extended periods of time.

I am not going to get into an argument about this or that, but please understand the rigors of what we put our rigs through is not in the same realm of road only cars.

There's no argument, you bought the system, you already installed it. so might as well use it. If you don't have any problem, great your done. If this doesn't work, give DeltaPAG a call and we'll design and build another system.

 

[Wisconsinite]

There's no argument, you bought the system, you already installed it. so might as well use it. If you don't have any problem, great your done. If this doesn't work, give DeltaPAG a call and we'll design and build another system.

Can you share some differences between what I did and what you would have done? You can see the space constraints that I have fitting a factory(ish)hood and grill, and having clearance for 40" tires and 50 degrees of steering. For real, if you have a product that is far superior to what I have, I wouldn't be THAT upset by redoing it all. It wouldn't be the first thing I have had to change on this.

Edit: all my parts are new/ unused, and I could sell them without too much hassel,

Edit 2: This is what the front looks like on 90 percent of jeeps or buggies.

 

[gt1guy]

Here's another example of a packed space.

22"x28" C&R radiator, Setrab engine oil cooler, Setrab trans cooler, AC condenser. LS3 engine has a billet Meziere water pump.

What you're looking at is pretty much standard cooling packaging for most folks here.

 

[Wisconsinite]

Here's another example of a packed space.

22"x28" C&R radiator

Just to be nosy, what does something like that in your configuration cost, roughly?

 

[gt1guy]

Just to be nosy, what does something like that in your configuration cost, roughly?

$2500.00 as pictured. That was a full custom job. Notice the angle of the fittings, they're level with the rad leaning back at 33*.

 

[Wisconsinite]

$2500.00 as pictured. That was a full custom job. Notice the angle of the fittings, they're level with the rad leaning back at 33*.

Yeah, I noticed that in your build thread. That is a lot of coin for a rad, but it sure looks top notch.

 

[gt1guy]

Yeah, I noticed that in your build thread. That is a lot of coin for a rad, but it sure looks top notch.

Spending a lot of coin to not have overheating problems is something, I'd think a lot of us are willing to do. Yours wasn't exactly cheap either.

Hopefully, DeltaPAGJohn realizes this. Everyone in this thread would like nothing more than to find a better solution for cooling.

 

[Wisconsinite]

Spending a lot of coin to not have overheating problems is something, I'd think a lot of us are willing to do. Yours wasn't exactly cheap either.

Hopefully, DeltaPAGJohn realizes this. Everyone in this thread would like nothing more than to find a better solution for cooling.

Exactly. If he could provide a product that would (as much as one can) guarantee I wouldn't have cooling issues, I would strongly consider starting over with some new parts. I am hoping he can teach us all something about our system designs, ways to improve, or why our component selections are lacking for our intended use case.

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

Dual 14" brushless wired up ready to go with digital controls $2,200. Lower cost, better performance, Made in the USA! 😎

 

[gt1guy]

Dual 14" brushless wired up ready to go with digital controls $2,200. Lower cost, better performance, Made in the USA! 😎

What are the dimensions of that? Two 14" fans don't fit in the space I have. I have two 12" fans that are an inch wider than the core on each side.

 

[Wisconsinite]

Dual 14" brushless wired up ready to go with digital controls $2,200. Lower cost, better performance, Made in the USA! 😎

Yeah, that is going to be too big for most of our applications. What is the overall width on that? Has to be 30"+, right?

My 28" rad is so tight to the chassis tubes I cannot run wires or plumbing next to the rad. They have to go over or under, not between the rad and the shock hoops.

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

Yeah, that is going to be too big for most of our applications. What is the overall width on that? Has to be 30"+, right?

My 28" rad is so tight to the chassis tubes I cannot run wires or plumbing next to the rad. They have to go over or under, not between the rad and the shock hoops.

Yeah we can make that work. Please note all of our systems are custom made, one off, CAD designed.

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

What are the dimensions of that? Two 14" fans don't fit in the space I have. I have two 12" fans that are an inch wider than the core on each side.

Well, we can make that work with two Delta PAG 14"s, It will need to be designed properly in CAD taking all of the measurements, but It could be done. You know, CAD modeling and simulations. I'm sure C&R did work like that if they charged you $2,500. But anyway your system is done and works well.

If it aint broke to fix it.

 

[WaterH]

There's no point trying to deduce CFM by looking at amps. Brushless is a different technology that is more efficient can you make it less efficient sure. The best comparison I can think of is determining the brightness of a lightbulb based on its watts consumed.

Ah, very good. Now it looks like you're thinking. Yup, making it super thin would be nice. But then you need to think about the coolant side of things. There are several "fluids" in play here and you need to account of all of them and its a tradeoff everywhere. I was just focusing on the radiator to make it simple.

I don't know buddy. There are many radiator manufactures that really sell garbage, poor alloys, construction, poor brazing job. We all heard people say that their buddy at the bar danced around their car clockwise with a feather cap, beating a drum and it then had 20 more horsepower.

First paragraph, seriously I hope I learn something here. I was thinking that an electric motor is driven by electric magnets that get switched on and off by the brushes. In the case of brushless, I assume they get switched on and off without dragging a brush. I see two benefits of no dragging brush. 1. It doesn’t ware out. 2. You eliminate the drag of the brush. That second benefit is great, but I can’t really see that a dragging brush eats that much power. Am I missing something? Is a brushless motor vs brushed as different as incandescent vs LED?

Second paragraph, clear as mud.

Third Paragraph, so you drag car friend puts a thinner rad on and it’s proof of concept, but my friend puts a thicker rad on and it’s obviously flawed. I get it.

 

[CarterKraft]

Add in brushless is 3 phase, completely different logic from DC permanent magnet motors .

 

[DeltaPAGJohn]

First paragraph, seriously I hope I learn something here. I was thinking that an electric motor is driven by electric magnets that get switched on and off by the brushes. In the case of brushless, I assume they get switched on and off without dragging a brush. I see two benefits of no dragging brush. 1. It doesn’t ware out. 2. You eliminate the drag of the brush. That second benefit is great, but I can’t really see that a dragging brush eats that much power. Am I missing something? Is a brushless motor vs brushed as different as incandescent vs LED?

Second paragraph, clear as mud.

Third Paragraph, so you drag car friend puts a thinner rad on and it’s proof of concept, but my friend puts a thicker rad on and it’s obviously flawed. I get it.

Yes, they are significantly different. High quality brushless motors, like Delta PAG's are 3-phase and use neodymium magnetics. You can easily get a 20% improvement in efficiency vs brushed motors found in the automotive industry. Also, you eliminate power start up inrush current, sparking and arcing. Have you ever used an old school brushed motor drill? Theres a firework display going on in that motor.

What!? why what's confusing on that?

Yes, I know exactly what was in there before and exactly the changes we made and the exact driving environment. Do you know who made the first radiator and how it was made? You say the second radiator was 4- core... Copper right? Is there a possibility something else was changed that you weren't aware of? Maybe he changed a thermostat and a waterpump and who knows, through the kitchen sink at the problem. I see that all the time.