Cooling Fan Tech

[crazybluerider]

You need a Yellow star.

I think answering questions about a product is a little different than straight up pimping. Although he did bump an older thread.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Cut him a little slack. The target market of that thing is clearly not the kind of stuff we do here.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Lets compare the "data". PAG VS SPAL
Both 14" brushless fans.
At 1.0" H20 static pressure the PAG is at max eff. 47% at 1700 CFM at 17 AMPS
At 1.0" H20 = 250 Pa static pressure the SPAL is 37% eff. at 1652 CFM at 41 AMPS

So both fans are almost the exact same CFM but one takes 41 AMPS while one only takes 17AMPS
What this means is that one of the two has bogus data.

At 1.6" H20 = 400 Pa static pressure the SPAL is at max eff 40% at 1168 CFM at 38 AMPS
At 1.6" H20 static pressure the PAG is at 30% eff. at 800 CFM at 6 AMPS.
To give you an idea of performance my smallest brushed Spal at 7.5" moves around 200 CFM through a 2.5" thick core at 5.4 AMPS
How the 14" PAG is able to pull 800 CFM at 6 AMPS is magical.

For the most part AMPS = Horse Power = CFM there is no way around it when efficiencies are relatively close.

My guess is the PAG "data" is bogus like most of the ebay and import "data"
When you correct for the actual CFM based on AMPS and at realistic static pressure through the thicker off road radiators that we use, you will find that PAG's can not pull through a dense radiator with a lot of drag as stated. You would need to have a thin front mounted radiator with fresh air at speed so the fan would not have to work as hard with a lower static pressure.
The deeper blade Spal can pull the air through a dense radiator regardless of radiator location and vehicle/air speed.

Spal makes a a 16" fan similar to the 14" that is slower spinning max 3300 RPM vs max 2800 RPM with a bigger fan blade which increases efficiency. The larger blade is able to produce near the same CFM with less AMPS.
At 1.26" H20 static pressure the 16" is at 1239 CFM at 30 AMPS
At 1.26" H20 static pressure the 14" is at 1357 CFM at 39 AMPS
At .6" H20 static pressure the 16" is at 1800 CFM at 32 AMPS
At .6" H20 static pressure the 14" is at 1950 CFM at 41 AMPS

The PAG might be good for hot rods with large front radiators at cruising speeds but would be out of their league off road stuck in the rocks full throttle with a small/compact thick radiator.

 

[Bebop]

No necessarily fan related, but could you see downsides to have "too much" cooling ?

IE what if I put a humongous radiator / fan setup on both my engine and transmission. Could that have bad effects ?

I'm talking about a 30x30 engine radiator or something of the like.

 

[Slander]

Won't your tstat modulate that on the engine side and make it so you can't overcool it?

 

[DMANbluesfreak]

I have input on this!

Newer cooling systems that are self bleeding typically flow a small amount of coolant through an orifice near the top of the radiator into the reservoir. I bought an aftermarket radiator for my truck and noticed if I ran the AC on a hot day, the temp of the engine would actually go down 10-30 degrees. Ultimately I figured out that the port at the top of the aftermarket radiator was not orificed so it was flowing way too much coolant back into the reservoir (which bypasses the thermostat).

I threaded in an orifice into the port and all has been well since.


Cliff notes: it's only detrmental if your thermostat doesn't seal properly or you have excess bypass somewhere.

And weight/size constraints obviously.

 

[Thatg9659]

Not exactly low speed crawling application but,

My likely plan is two Lincoln continental radiators four factory electric fans. Cause it's what I have.

My stupid idea is two hydraulic jeep fans running off an under driven Ford power steering pump at ideal engine speed of 7000 ripems when I need the most cooling.

The engine has two water outlets 1 inlet, do I run one to each radiator or combine them and run them to both radiators in series? Distance to each radiator should be semi equal as I plan to mount them in a V configuration.

 

[Bebop]

Won't your tstat modulate that on the engine side and make it so you can't overcool it?

What about trans and engine oil (it has an engine oil cooler) ? No TStat there.

I may need to add some, just wanting input on that topic.

 

[Slander]

What about trans and engine oil (it has an engine oil cooler) ? No TStat there.

I may need to add some, just wanting input on that topic.

Good question on the trans and engine oil I don't know. I'm sure there is an industrial application for cold climates somewhere that has a tstat/valve for those. I mean honesty if you are trail riding in the south I wouldn't even worry about those two regardless of how big the radiator is.

I could be 100% wrong on the trans though, im a stick shift guy and I have no idea what kind of climate the spirits who manage the black magic inside an auto trans prefer.

 

[Bebop]

I'm talking about a 26x17 trans cooler. Worried about cooling it too much...

What a dumb problem to have.

 

[WaterH]

What about trans and engine oil (it has an engine oil cooler) ? No TStat there.

I may need to add some, just wanting input on that topic.

On the engine, as mentioned, I think no problem because of thermostat.

On the trans, my project truck has just an in-rad cooler/heater. I figured it might not be enough because the rad water is hot. So far, I have never measured over 165 on the trans pan. This is odd because you would think a diesel would make a auto run hot. (Because of low rpm torque) I do have an oversized rad and my fans come on at 140 because my water/air intercooler uses that same water.

I wonder if my fluid is likely to get water in it because it’s so cool. I’ve always heard you want over 220 oil temp so water boils off.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

What about trans and engine oil (it has an engine oil cooler) ? No TStat there.

I may need to add some, just wanting input on that topic.

You can get engine oil and trans oil mechanical t-stats. Wax motor piston/ cylinder like a typical radiator t-stat
You can also run a fan on a thermal switch or smart sensor to maintain a temp range.
I see smart sensors with remote mounted coolers with no mechanical t-stat being the future.
I am 95% reliant on fan cooling and temp switch control as a rear mounted radiator can only radiate so much heat without airflow.
Enter the EV age and center mounted big radiators and open grills with engine mounted fans are gone. Telsa pulls air through a little front opening down low and the dual electric fans are right in front of the tires on each side. I am sure they are not allowing a stupid mechanical valve to control the temps for the batteries and drivers.
For an engine oil you might want get and stay at a specific temp range for viscosity or oil pump performance.
For a trans you might want to keep heat expansion tolerances consistent as well as viscosity so bleed off and pressures for engagement and release are consistent.
For both you might also want to keep at a high enough temp to help vaporize moisture.
Vehicle velocity air across the radiator can be controlled by a radiator and t-stat but it is also a waste to bypass the air through friction vs an aerodynamic body with air only moved when needed. I can only assume that remote electronically handling the air is more efficient than the waste generated by a direct vehicle velocity forced air system.

 

[arse_sidewards]

You can get engine oil and trans oil t-stats. You can also run a fan on a t-stat switch or smart sensor to maintain a temp range.

Or just toss a big fluid-fluid heat exchanger in there and sleep well knowing that your trans/engine/steering/whatever oil will always return to sump at +/-30deg of coolant temp.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Or just toss a big fluid-fluid heat exchanger in there and sleep well knowing that your trans/engine/steering/whatever oil will always return to sump at +/-30deg of coolant temp.

Fluid heat exchangers can also run a t-stat as the temps can drop too low.
Not every part on the vehicle needs to or should run at the same temps. With electronic control there is no need to make everything the same temp.

I am not opposed to one massive common radiator with 2 or 5 or 10 different liquid to liquid heat exchanger with electronic proportional valves that regulate the coolant flow across the heat exchangers to maintain ideal temps for each component.
The Fox Live Valve is a similar electronic controlled valve system that can read and adjust insanely fast to determine the correct fluid flow in a shock. This is not futuristic, this technology is up and running on stock on and off road vehicle off the dealer lots as well as Ultra4 cars.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Fluid heat exchangers can also run a t-stat as the temps can drop too low.
Not every part on the vehicle needs to or should run at the same temps. With electronic control there is no need to make everything the same temp.

I am not opposed to one massive common radiator with 2 or 5 or 10 different liquid to liquid heat exchanger with electronic proportional valves that regulate the coolant flow across the heat exchangers to maintain ideal temps for each component.
The Fox Live Valve is a similar electronic controlled valve system that can read and adjust insanely fast to determine the correct fluid flow in a shock. This is not futuristic, this technology is up and running on stock on and off road vehicle off the dealer lots as well as Ultra4 cars.

It's one more thing to tune. Some people see that as a pro. Some people see that as a con. Personally I don't wanna have to think about it after I'm done designing and implementing it.

If you want to get a race vehicle dialed in or mass production car dialed in perfectly by all means control everything electronically. I agree it's stupid simple to do. Temp too high, fan comes on, temp drops down fan turns off.

All those thermostats can fail over time. Electric valves need their operation to be verified. It just makes the checklist for answering the question "why is X not the right temp" longer because you gotta verify all that stuff is working.

Pretty much every fluid that isn't fuel is happy enough living around 180-220. I'd rather just daisy chain everything to the one thermostat in the cooling system and live with some temps being a few degrees hot or cold. Of course this requires you oversize some things which has tradeoffs and live with slightly high/low temps (shorter fluid life) but I think it's worth it.

 

[Bebop]

Engine Fan is a 18" Spal Brushless with complete ECU control, I can make it do what I want. ECU already has Engine Water temp, Trans temp and it wouldn't be too hard to add Engine oil temp.

My thinking was to put the engine oil on a heat exchanger on the return line of the fan, and the trans cooler stacked on top of the engine radiator. As much as I like having one programmable fan for each fluid, I don't think its the best move for this rig in terms of space.

Improved racing sells remote oil thermostats that cost a fortune, but I guess that's what I need to buy.

 

[toximus]

The sensor white goes to ground.
The yellow switched goes to power.
You need both connected to run the brushless direct.
The reasoning is that you would run the white wire on a old style temp switch that contacts to ground. The yellow is switched on and off. Otherwise the fan would run when the power is turned off or there would be no temp switch to turn it off or on.

I have a PWM signal to control the Spal brushless fan. Do you know if I connect to the signal to the yellow or white wire?

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I have a PWM signal to control the Spal brushless fan. Do you know if I connect to the signal to the yellow or white wire?

The Spal sensor (which you are not using) outputs a PWM or resistance signal to the fan, sorry I should know this but cant remember, the fan can read either one. (Doesn't matter in your case.)
You are going to send the PWM through the white wire, which is the (smart wire).

IF YOU ARE RUNNIG DIRECT WITHOUT PWM OR VARIABLE RESISTANCE AKA POTENTIOMETER.
The sensor white goes to ground.
The yellow switched goes to power.
You need both connected to run the brushless direct.
The reasoning is that you would run the white wire on a old style temp switch that contacts to ground. The yellow is switched on and off. Otherwise the fan would run when the power is turned off or there would be no temp switch to turn it off or on.

 

[toximus]

The Spal sensor (which you are not using) outputs a PWM or resistance signal to the fan, sorry I should know this but cant remember, the fan can read either one. (Doesn't matter in your case.)
You are going to send the PWM through the white wire, which is the (smart wire).

IF YOU ARE RUNNIG DIRECT WITHOUT PWM OR VARIABLE RESISTANCE AKA POTENTIOMETER.
The sensor white goes to ground.
The yellow switched goes to power.
You need both connected to run the brushless direct.
The reasoning is that you would run the white wire on a old style temp switch that contacts to ground. The yellow is switched on and off. Otherwise the fan would run when the power is turned off or there would be no temp switch to turn it off or on.

Excellent explanation. Thank you!

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Engine Fan is a 18" Spal Brushless with complete ECU control, I can make it do what I want. ECU already has Engine Water temp, Trans temp and it wouldn't be too hard to add Engine oil temp.

My thinking was to put the engine oil on a heat exchanger on the return line of the fan, and the trans cooler stacked on top of the engine radiator. As much as I like having one programmable fan for each fluid, I don't think its the best move for this rig in terms of space.

Improved racing sells remote oil thermostats that cost a fortune, but I guess that's what I need to buy.

Since you have abundant electrical control I would source a cheap 12V solenoid pilot operated valve to control fluid flow to a heat exchanger. It would work much like a fan control. Starting and stopping fluid flow based upon a temp switch or engine temps through the ECM.
No need to go back to the stone ages and run a thermal wax motor thermostatic controlled valve.

 

[Bebop]

I'm still working on the new cooling package.
Ended up going to separate coolers for each fluid with a brushless fan per cooler.
Full control over everything and, in the end, probably the simplest way to achieve this.

 

[arse_sidewards]

No need to go back to the stone ages and run a thermal wax motor thermostatic controlled valve.

Bimetallic strip beats both any day.

 

[YJ-6 Unlimited]

Limited sample size but I just threw in a Camaro/CTSV brushless fan on my LS swapped YJ with a Griffin direct fit 2x1.25” tube radiator. Controlling it through my E38 ECM. This thing is absolutely a beast. Still playing with duty cycle vs ECT table but at 90% it’s like a jet engine. I don’t think I’ll ever have a cooling issue again (a/c on in 90° weather and idling). Haven’t got the CANBUS module yet for the a/c request (switching that to ECM control too), so I don’t have that cooling metric yet but I feel confident. It fits a YJ/TJ radiator with minimal trimming. It could be removed and fab your own shroud but figured try this first especially since it has a bunch of flaps already built in.

 

[chaplinfj60]

so what year of a Camaro did you use. and could a fitech or holly LS swap computer and controller be used instead of the E38 ecm? totally new to all this tech. thanks

 

[Bebop]

so what year of a Camaro did you use. and could a fitech or holly LS swap computer and controller be used instead of the E38 ecm? totally new to all this tech. thanks

Fuck FiTech and yes on Holley as long as it's not a Sniper.

I'm using the same fan :

 

[chaplinfj60]

Fuck FiTech and yes on Holley as long as it's not a Sniper.

so that e38 is replaced by the aftermarket computer, and if i read correctly, you can adjust what % of fan to use at what temp also?

 

[AgitatedPancake]

That fan looks awesome. What's the OD of the blades?

 

[YJ-6 Unlimited]

so what year of a Camaro did you use. and could a fitech or holly LS swap computer and controller be used instead of the E38 ecm? totally new to all this tech. thanks

It’s a 17-20 SS Camaro/CTSV. As long as it’s the 6.2L supercharged you should be good. Not sure on Holley or fitech but the fan operates on 100Hz PWM.

That fan looks awesome. What's the OD of the blades?

It’s either 18” or 19" I have seen people mainly say 19”. I didn’t measure mine. The shroud is 22Wx21H

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Thanks. Do you happen to know about how deep the shroud is from the face of the rad to the back of the motor (or whatever sticks out furthest)?

 

[YJ-6 Unlimited]

Thanks. Do you happen to know about how deep the shroud is from the face of the rad to the back of the motor (or whatever sticks out furthest)?

I’ll try to remember to measure when I get home. It’s not that far since the motor doesn’t protrude out like a lot of brushed fans