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Bible Prophecy - Nonbeliever's Playground
- Thread starter MChat
- Start date
Otis
Active member
- Joined
- May 23, 2020
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- 1249
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- 29
He followed up with "A Case for the Creator". I'd recommend it if you haven't read it.
xr-nut
GROUP W BENCH
Poke
I’m condescending
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
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- 763
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- 1,393
Not a good answer or one at all.
Tiha
Red Skull Member
Yep but strobel was the guy that was already a reporter.
They are both good reads. CS Lewis kind of converted, well it is funny when he says why. Like no reason to it.
Tiha
Red Skull Member
How so
Romans 1:20, KJV: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
How about another translation
Romans 1:20
New International Version
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
How about this translation.
Romans 1:20
English Standard Version
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,7 in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.OR How about
Ecclesiastes 3:11
11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from he beginning to the end.
MChat
Resident "Preacher Man"
In the book of Acts, Paul is talking to believers in the Greek deities on Mars Hill and he tells them:
"So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;" - Acts 17:22-27 (NASB)
We may not understand the how, but essentially what Paul is saying is that everyone on earth, during every time on earth were put where they were for them to have the best chance they have of coming to know God. If an individual person was raised by penguins on Antarctica, then for whatever reason that is the best chance that person has of knowing God. We may not understand it, we also may not like it, but it is possible that these people that "lived for hundreds of years with no exposure" may never have come to God no matter what their "appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation" were.
Couple that with the verses Tiha quoted about the knowledge of God being inherent in every man; hence why even the most isolated indigenous people have a "god" or "gods".
MChat
Resident "Preacher Man"
There have been more than Lee Strobel that have set out to "disprove" the Bible and became Christians because of what they learned.
Going off the top of my head here, so I don't remember the names:
An archeologist set out to disprove the Bible, so using the Bible he researched a lost city that had not been unearthed. He went out to where it "should be" and started digging, whole-heartedly believing he would find nothing and instead dug up the lost city.
A business man that set out to prove the "financial wisdom" of the Bible would lead to bankruptcy took one of his businesses and ran it based on Biblical principles and it became his most profitable business; he ended up instituting the principles in all of his other businesses, making them even more successful.
Those are just two off the top of my head.
As for Christians (or non-Christians that are seeking the truth), I highly recommend picking up some books (the aforementioned Case for Christ by Lee Strobel is one) on Christian Apologetics (the evidence that what we believe is true). I think that most, even Christians, will be surprised at how much extra-Biblical evidence there is that what we believe is true.
The time is soon coming when our faith will be tested as it has been for a great while for our Brethren in places like China, Iran, other Islamic nations, and now (again) Afghanistan.
MChat
Resident "Preacher Man"
Huh. I didn't know C.S. Lewis wrote a book by that title as well. I will add that to my list. I just ordered a couple of books on "Books of Enoch" (the text of the Enoch books as well as commentary), as I think it may shed some light on what is going on with the "Cabal" (Mystery Babylon).
I was reading more on this in Revelation yesterday. The more I study and the more I research what this "elite" Cabal believes, the more I think it is Mystery Babylon. However, Mystery Babylon is not just the Cabal, but the "city" (and country) where they are in power as well; I see two names in Revelation "Mystery Babylon" is the Cabal and "Babylon the Great" is New York City and the United States. Maybe the destruction of Babylon the Great is where Isaiah 18 ties in with the events in Revelation.
Poke
I’m condescending
- Joined
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Thanks for that
Fuzzydog
Red Skull Member
me: double checks thread title
The bible quotes are meaningless to non-believers such as myself, much as a quote from Arthur C. Clarke or Stephen King would be meaningless to you in an attempt to influence your beliefs.
When someone quotes from the bible, the statement pretty much loses all credibility (to me. not speaking for anyone else but I suspect most non-believers would feel the same way)
I've said it before but it is worth saying again - the world and universe around us are probably the greatest argument FOR some sort of supreme being. our science rationalizes things so that we can understand and deal with it, but we still very far from truly understanding the nature of the universe in which we exist.
In other words, I have not put blind faith in the concept that God does not exist, and am not willing to accept, on blind faith, that He does exist.
so a question to the believers - Considering that there is zero tangible proof of the stories of the bible, how can you blindly accept that this is the word of God? What makes it easier for you to believe that story, than to believe that the whole universe is billions of years old and all that exists today simply evolved over eons?
The bible quotes are meaningless to non-believers such as myself, much as a quote from Arthur C. Clarke or Stephen King would be meaningless to you in an attempt to influence your beliefs.
When someone quotes from the bible, the statement pretty much loses all credibility (to me. not speaking for anyone else but I suspect most non-believers would feel the same way)
I've said it before but it is worth saying again - the world and universe around us are probably the greatest argument FOR some sort of supreme being. our science rationalizes things so that we can understand and deal with it, but we still very far from truly understanding the nature of the universe in which we exist.
In other words, I have not put blind faith in the concept that God does not exist, and am not willing to accept, on blind faith, that He does exist.
so a question to the believers - Considering that there is zero tangible proof of the stories of the bible, how can you blindly accept that this is the word of God? What makes it easier for you to believe that story, than to believe that the whole universe is billions of years old and all that exists today simply evolved over eons?
Tiha
Red Skull Member
I do not blindly accept anything. There is actually lots of 3rd party accounts of stories in the bible. Pretty easy to verify if you go look for it.
I understand you don't want to blindly follow. Neither did I.
So are you perfectly content with your life? You feel complete? Missing nothing?
Or do you ever stop and feel like there has to be more to it?
You are okay with just dying and it all being over?
Sandy Johnson
Harry Member
The questions you are asking him makes it sound like you don't think he believes in God or any sort of afterlife. Sounds more like he's questioning the accuracy of the bible instead.
Tiha
Red Skull Member
Just trying to establish a foundation for discussion. Everyone believes in something.
He certainly questions the bible.
But he doesn't say what he believes.
rockmup
El Hefe
I'll be glad to answer that.
I don't believe a single word in the bible, its a book written and re written by man, with all of mans influence.
I don't think you need god to have morals, principals, know the difference between right and wrong or anything else like that.
I think humans have a need to lean on something, anything to help them cope. I think thats what religion does, nothing wrong with that at all if it helps you.
I believe this earth is much older than we claim to know, I think we are just the latest version of life on this rock
MChat
Resident "Preacher Man"
Actually, this is not true at all.
I have an entire seminar's worth of material showing evidence the Flood happened. Dr. Brown has an entire book on his Hydroplate Theory explaining the evidence of the flood and how the Hydroplate Theory was developed based on this evidence.
Countless archeological digs have uncovered not only cities mentioned in the Bible, but artifact after artifact that prove the people of the Bible (like King David) are real people.
There is more evidence for the story of Jesus Christ than for any other historical figure of the era (including Alexander the Great).
Not to mention thousands of fulfilled prophecies, many of which are so accurate that skeptics don't deny their fulfillment but rather insist the prophecies were written after the event occurred (until the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered, proving the skeptics to be incorrect).
I haven't taught on Christian Apologetics in years, but I can go back to my notes to give you specific examples, if you'd like.
Tiha
Red Skull Member
I am happy for you that you are content with this life. You are certainly one of a very few.
Where do you think morals come from? Just whatever is socially acceptable?
rockmup
El Hefe
Thanks.
Thats not to say that life is easy, it isn't but I don't expect anything different. I don't believe in luck or fate or destiny or anything like that. I believe we are presented with experiences and choices in life and everything we become or do is based on what we choose to do at those times.
Of course morals and things like that come from social pressure and for the most part that has been influenced by religion. What would it have been like without that ? Look at whats happened in our large inner city's for the last 70 yrs, look at whats been going on in Portland and other places.
I live a good life, treat people they way I expect to be treated and when I die, who cares. I'll be dust before long just like everyone before me.
Roc Doc
2A SNBI
There is lots of evidence of great floods both here and in the old world, some in roughly biblical times, but that doesn't prove that it was THE flood that covered the whole Earth. The residents of the biblical world would not have known how big the world was, only that their immediate area flooded. The Tigris and Euphrates flooded on a regular basis and if the flood was big enough it would have seemed like the whole world was flooded, even though they had no idea of what that actually meant. Shit, the horizon on a flat sea is under 3 miles from the beach for an average height human. There are other stories of great floods in other religions which makes sense as it would have been a condition people would have no control of, so it stands to reason they'd assign it some sort of divine causation. The whole story is a bunch of hooey.
Tiha
Red Skull Member
That is partially true. I see your point. Sure the people, such as if Noah would not know if the world was covered and even if it was local they would view it as a world ending event, but then Noah did not write the biblical account.
It was actually written by moses. Who was raised in Pharaoh's house. Extremely well educated. Spoke directly with God. God knew how big the world was and how much of it was covered.
So we are back to believing the biblical account or not, but it is also far easier to prove the existence and validity of moses than Noah.
Roc Doc
2A SNBI
And that's why there is a similar story in the Quran.
Tiha
Red Skull Member
Yes moses and Jesus are both mentioned in the quran, so is the flood. So why doubt it happened as described?
Fuzzydog
Red Skull Member
I don't know how you can say that you are not following the God storyline blindly. There is no proof or evidence of any sort of God's existence. 3rd party accounts are not very solid evidence.
Remember, I honestly say that I do not blindly follow the storyline that there is no God either. It would be easy for me to quote scientists and their research that explains carbon dating, the origin of the universe, evolution, biology, etc but I cannot accept those as evidence because to me they are annecdotal. I am not an astronomer or biologist, or geologist or any other kind of ologist so I am not in a position to endorse or refute their work. On the one hand there are the scientists, and on the other hand there is the bible and religion.
I think about the simple process of looking at my hand and commanding my fingers to close and they do. Truly this is nothing short of miraculous and easily falls into a supreme being storyline that created and controls all of it. But that storyline does not include Adam and Eve, Noah, Ten Commandments, Moses, etc, etc.
To answer the questions you posed back to me.
I am very content in my life. I have what is probably a rare ability to sort the things I can control from those that I can't and to absolutely not worry about them. Life is too short
I am ok with just dying and it being over. Again, deal with the things you can deal with and don't worry about those you can't. Being dead is something I can't change so I don't worry about it. and much like believers achieve peace of mind by believing they will be accepted into heaven, I achieve peace of mind by believing it is all over at death - no thoughts, no pain, no pleasure....simply nothing. Two vastly different beliefs that accomplish the same result during life.
But your second question - oh man! Yes, absolutely I feel there has to be more to it and I will sit in the dark staring at the night sky for hours contemplating what I see as the ultimate paradox. We exist in a universe that implies it is infinite. Oh sure, we believe that there is a known universe, but if that is correct then there is something beyond the edge of the universe and that goes on to it's end, then there is something else, etc, etc. Yet from my (rather limited) understanding of the matter, this is impossible. yet here we are. This isn't a 'worry' scenario for me - it is almost a hobby, trying to come up with reasonable scenarios that make this all possible and the existence of a god is one of those scenarios but not in the biblical sense
When I was young, if I had been introduced to a religion that was not so rigid on ceremony and old books, but rather more focused on scientifically solving that paradox - I would be pope by now
Roc Doc
2A SNBI
Well the Quran wasn't written till well after the Bible, and it's based on Old Testament scriptures, and it was a good story, so it made it into the Quran. They came up with the flying horse on their own.
Fuzzydog
Red Skull Member
Actually that is a good paraphrase - In a universe of such splendor and magnificence, I am having a hard time understanding what the bible brings to the party. If there truly is a God, that is as powerful as He is made out to be then why the smoke and mirrors, the pomp and ceremony, the speaking in riddles, the arbitrary rules?
But as far as afterlife.,.....yeah....nah. Dirt and bugs.
Tiha
Red Skull Member
That is awesome, great post.I don't know how you can say that you are not following the God storyline blindly. There is no proof or evidence of any sort of God's existence. 3rd party accounts are not very solid evidence.
Remember, I honestly say that I do not blindly follow the storyline that there is no God either. It would be easy for me to quote scientists and their research that explains carbon dating, the origin of the universe, evolution, biology, etc but I cannot accept those as evidence because to me they are annecdotal. I am not an astronomer or biologist, or geologist or any other kind of ologist so I am not in a position to endorse or refute their work. On the one hand there are the scientists, and on the other hand there is the bible and religion.
I think about the simple process of looking at my hand and commanding my fingers to close and they do. Truly this is nothing short of miraculous and easily falls into a supreme being storyline that created and controls all of it. But that storyline does not include Adam and Eve, Noah, Ten Commandments, Moses, etc, etc.
To answer the questions you posed back to me.
I am very content in my life. I have what is probably a rare ability to sort the things I can control from those that I can't and to absolutely not worry about them. Life is too short
I am ok with just dying and it being over. Again, deal with the things you can deal with and don't worry about those you can't. Being dead is something I can't change so I don't worry about it. and much like believers achieve peace of mind by believing they will be accepted into heaven, I achieve peace of mind by believing it is all over at death - no thoughts, no pain, no pleasure....simply nothing. Two vastly different beliefs that accomplish the same result during life.
But your second question - oh man! Yes, absolutely I feel there has to be more to it and I will sit in the dark staring at the night sky for hours contemplating what I see as the ultimate paradox. We exist in a universe that implies it is infinite. Oh sure, we believe that there is a known universe, but if that is correct then there is something beyond the edge of the universe and that goes on to it's end, then there is something else, etc, etc. Yet from my (rather limited) understanding of the matter, this is impossible. yet here we are. This isn't a 'worry' scenario for me - it is almost a hobby, trying to come up with reasonable scenarios that make this all possible and the existence of a god is one of those scenarios but not in the biblical sense
When I was young, if I had been introduced to a religion that was not so rigid on ceremony and old books, but rather more focused on scientifically solving that paradox - I would be pope by now
I started out with a leap of faith and then set out prove it. So of course my opinion is biased. I am predisposed in finding the affirmative, just as someone else is predisposed in finding the negatory. Every person on that path, at least that I know, has found enough information to believe the biblical account and accept the rest. When you know, you just know. And for some that will never be enough.
It is really interesting you talk about staring at the stars and wondering. That is exactly what God was talking about when he said every person is given enough information to make a choice. You are still thinking about it and that is great. You need to find your own path, but that desire to find out burns within you.
I stare at the stares and ponder a great many things as well.
But you already know how can this all be by chance. So what is it? As you said, there in lies the paradox.
Sandy Johnson
Harry Member
It was easy for me to paraphrase because I feel the same way.
I don't believe science disproves the existence of God, in fact, the more we learn about the universe, the more it makes me wonder how it could have come about without some sort of guiding hand. Has some of what we learned shown the bible can't be a word for word account of exactly what transpired? Absolutely. It's a combination of faith, cautionary tales, people's efforts to explain the unexplainable, and a little bit of embellishment over time in a effort to tell entertaining stories. That doesn't mean the bible should be ignored, it just means that we have to also accept that since the bible was written by a handful of spiritual leaders in the first century AD; general knowledge, technology, and science has significantly changed since then.
MChat
Resident "Preacher Man"
When one historical text agrees with another, is it a "rip off" or do both texts gain credibility?
Josephus a known historian from the 1st century, as well as Tacitus and Pliny the Younger all mention Jesus of Nazareth. Does that make the Gospels "rip-offs" or does the extra-Biblical references from the same era confirm the authenticity of the Gospels?
The estimated date range for the Epic of Gilgamesh is from 1400 BC to 2100 BC. The book of Job is estimated around 2000 BC. Moses received the Torah and the 10 Commandments around 1440 BC. In other words these books were written around the same time. If both the Bible and the Epic of Gilgamesh depict ancient history, then does it really matter which was written first?
Garden of Eden, Nephilim and the Flood are the "stories" that are in both the Torah and in Gilgamesh; these would be historic events recorded likely in multiple ways by multiple sources. These are also supposedly mentioned in the Books of Enoch (which Jude references) which would predate both (if Enoch is indeed the author).
MChat
Resident "Preacher Man"
The Bible was scribed by about 40 "authors" over 1500 years - 2000 years, starting with Job around 2000 BC, Moses around 1440 BC and ending with Paul and John in the 1st century AD. Not "a handful of spiritual leaders in the 1st century AD".
Many of the events and people recorded in the Historical books of the Old Testament are found in extra-Biblical historical accounts.