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Alec Baldwin Shot a Lady

I'm not nearly as versed in this stuff as Firstram is, but I did work with a friend of mine to provide vehicles for the Tom Berenger movie 'Breaking Point' in '09*. There was a scene where Tom is driving his family in an older black Mercedes sedan and gets into an accident...the reason he's driving that car is because my friend had two of them at his junkyard, one that ran and one that was junk. The scene is one of those 'oh shit!' and then it cuts away to the aftermath of the accident (you never see it actually happen). The director gave us a general run down of how the accident was gonna go and we recreated it with the junk Merc in my buddy's back lot, which was a fun night with a lot of beer using wreckers and other junk cars to trash that Merc. When we brought them to NYC to film the scene they shot Tom's part driving, then had us place the car we wrecked on its side at the intersection while they brought the fire crews and ambulances etc for the next scene. All that to say...they could've rigged a car up for a stunt driver to execute the crash and hope it goes right, or it's just a doubled car prepped for whatever the scene is gonna be.

So something like you're talking about would likely be explosive charges for the motion shots/when people are involved and a double that was shot up off set per the director's instructions to use for the shots where they pull the bodies out or you see stuff close up.

*the movie sucked, but we also provided the '69 Riviera that he drives later in the movie, which we still have and he signed the visor. It was a total turd but they made it look good on screen :laughing:
Fun stuff. You can really overanalyze what the aftermath should look like or relax and fuck stuff up. The worst part about aftermath stuff is, they usually shoot it first for actor availability. Then we are expected to do it for real and make it match:homer:
 
Fun stuff. You can really overanalyze what the aftermath should look like or relax and fuck stuff up. The worst part about aftermath stuff is, they usually shoot it first for actor availability. Then we are expected to do it for real and make it match:homer:

One annoying thing, Busta Rhymes was in that movie as well and he wasn't allowed to film in NYC, so for a bunch of his stuff we had to pack it all up and go over the bridge to Jersey City to get those shots done :homer:

 
One annoying thing, Busta Rhymes was in that movie as well and he wasn't allowed to film in NYC, so for a bunch of his stuff we had to pack it all up and go over the bridge to Jersey City to get those shots done :homer:


:lmao:
 
Sorry but he still negligently handled a firearm that led to someones death. A signed contract can not protect him in that case. He has guidance/training from the SAG that tells him how to handle a firearm on set which he did not follow and he knew he was holding a real firearm. If he had followed all his training and someone still got hurt then agreed the armorer would wear this whole thing, but that was not the case.

I also don't disagree that he has responsibility as the Producer for the armorers actions, but to say he isn't liable because a contract protects him as the shooter is just stupid.

If he had lawyer'ed up right away and not blabbed to the cops for 2 hours after waiving his miranda rights this would be a totally different case.
Don't be sorry - I'm not happy about him skating - I'm just trying to tell you what they can and cannot charge him for.

What you do with the constrains of reality is up to you
dunno-gif.627990
 
By whose standard?

In fact, can you show us any law at all that codifies any of the safe gun handling rules we all learned as kids? From any state, or at the federal level?
By New Mexico's standard.

A. Negligent use of a deadly weapon consists of:

(1) discharging a firearm into any building or vehicle or so as to knowingly endanger a person or his property;

(2) carrying a firearm while under the influence of an intoxicant or narcotic;

(3) endangering the safety of another by handling or using a firearm or other deadly weapon in a negligent manner; or

(4) discharging a firearm within one hundred fifty yards of a dwelling or building, not including abandoned or vacated buildings on public lands during hunting seasons, without the permission of the owner or lessees thereof.
He 100% falls under #3.

"Negligent" defined. — "Negligent" means omitting to do something which a reasonable man, guided by those considerations which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do, or doing something which a prudent and reasonable man would not do. State v. Grubbs, 1973-NMCA-096, 85 N.M. 365, 512 P.2d 693, overruled, Santillanes v. State, 1993-NMSC-012, 115 N.M. 215, 849 P.2d 358; see State v. Yarborough, 1995-NMCA-116, 120 N.M. 669, 905 P.2d 209.
 
Don't be sorry - I'm not happy about him skating - I'm just trying to tell you what they can and cannot charge him for.

What you do with the constrains of reality is up to you
dunno-gif.627990
How is this confusing, he was recharged with Involuntary Manslaughter following the testing of the pistol that showed they could only get the pistol to fire if the trigger was pulled. If his conduct as the shooter wasn't what they were going after then they wouldn't have refiled charges following the new evidence obtained during the testing of the gun.
 
I thought the gun had been tested way back in the beginning and found to be functioning properly?
Regardless if the trigger needed to be pulled or not, your claims would be he should have been charged and convicted, because of #3.

Keep in mind, there’s going to be a jury. They are going to have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt, that “a reasonable person”, who happens to be an actor, without any actual firearm knowledge, would believe a professional armorer, who’s job it is to ensure the actor has safe props, would/could hand him a dangerous prop.
 
Keep in mind, there’s going to be a jury. They are going to have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt, that “a reasonable person”, who happens to be an actor, without any actual firearm knowledge, would believe a professional armorer, who’s job it is to ensure the actor has safe props, would/could hand him a dangerous prop.
Which armorer had had at least two incidents of guns going off on set that shouldn't have, one with a live round in the previous week or so, you can be sure if they were handing me a gun I would check it myself given that history...

Aaron Z
 
Which armorer had had at least two incidents of guns going off on set that shouldn't have, one with a live round in the previous week or so, you can be sure if they were handing me a gun I would check it myself given that history...

Aaron Z
Are you an actor paid to pretend with props handed to you by professionals that know the props?
 
How is this confusing, he was recharged with Involuntary Manslaughter following the testing of the pistol that showed they could only get the pistol to fire if the trigger was pulled. If his conduct as the shooter wasn't what they were going after then they wouldn't have refiled charges following the new evidence obtained during the testing of the gun.
Whether he pulled the trigger or not means fuck all. He was assured by a professional that he was in fact handling a potato. You can pull the trigger all you want on a potato.
 
I don’t know squat about tv/movie making.

Somewhere in the past I heard or read that “prop” guns could not chamber live ammunition, but could only chamber blanks. Now, if they are using real guns as props, someone needs to hang if live ammo came within 100 yards of any real weapon.

(I apologize if this was already covered, I’m not skimming the whole thread :homer:)
 
I don’t know squat about tv/movie making.

Somewhere in the past I heard or read that “prop” guns could not chamber live ammunition, but could only chamber blanks. Now, if they are using real guns as props, someone needs to hang if live ammo came within 100 yards of any real weapon.

(I apologize if this was already covered, I’m not skimming the whole thread :homer:)
I dunno squat either. But, we've learned here that "dummy" ammunition has the exact same dimensions as live ammo, so if you're gonna use it, you gotta use a weapon that can chamber live ammo.

Someone is hanging over live ammo making it into the gun. The armorer. She put a live round into a real gun and said, "here, point this at people".

Why the fuck would they put any kind of ammo into a real gun for rehearsal? Well, with that armorer, I guess it's just "whatevs, here's a gun that may or may not be loaded, do your thang".
 
I don’t know squat about tv/movie making.

Somewhere in the past I heard or read that “prop” guns could not chamber live ammunition, but could only chamber blanks. Now, if they are using real guns as props, someone needs to hang if live ammo came within 100 yards of any real weapon.

(I apologize if this was already covered, I’m not skimming the whole thread :homer:)
there was a real gun and a replica available. The replica was capable of loading real ammo, cocking and dropping the hammer, but not actually firing. He told police he knew he was using the real gun
 
I’m not going back through 40 pages, have we established what movie set protocols are for this situation? With a professional armorer on set, what is the industry protocol in a scene like this?

Don’t confuse what we do personally in the real world when handling weapons with what happens on a movie set. It’s two completely different scenarios.

In the movie industry does an actor have the responsibility of checking every prop, or is that what they hire professionals for?
 
I’m not going back through 40 pages, have we established what movie set protocols are for this situation? With a professional armorer on set, what is the industry protocol in a scene like this?

Don’t confuse what we do personally in the real world when handling weapons with what happens on a movie set. It’s two completely different scenarios.

In the movie industry does an actor have the responsibility of checking every prop, or is that what they hire professionals for?
The Armorer that testified in Hannahs trial, said the standard is for the Armorer to empty the firearm, visually show the actor each round is a dummy or for the actor to do it them selves and they then reload the firearm right on the spot before the scene.
 
I’m not going back through 40 pages, have we established what movie set protocols are for this situation? With a professional armorer on set, what is the industry protocol in a scene like this?

Don’t confuse what we do personally in the real world when handling weapons with what happens on a movie set. It’s two completely different scenarios.

In the movie industry does an actor have the responsibility of checking every prop, or is that what they hire professionals for?

This is where I disagree with people. The law doesn’t make exceptions for the movie industry on guns. It’s not “two completely different scenarios”. If they are in the borders of NM, the laws apply.

As an example, the law does make an exception to traffic laws for special events. (Like racing on public streets or movies) I don’t really care if the movie industry has a protocol that allows actors to “not check weapons”. They need to change their protocol to align with the law. Not the other way around.
 
This is where I disagree with people. The law doesn’t make exceptions for the movie industry on guns. It’s not “two completely different scenarios”. If they are in the borders of NM, the laws apply.

As an example, the law does make an exception to traffic laws for special events. (Like racing on public streets or movies) I don’t really care if the movie industry has a protocol that allows actors to “not check weapons”. They need to change their protocol to align with the law. Not the other way around.
I'm not asking about laws, just protocol on sets. You are laser focused on hammering on what the law says, which I get, but what I want to know is what the industry standard is for safe weapon handling on set. A movie set scenario is a lot different than what I do when I'm taking guns out of my safes to go out to the property to shoot.
 
Out of curiosity, if an actor is given and gun and ammo that is supposed to be a prop, how would he/she know the difference?

And again, why the hell is any fully functioning firearm or live ammo on a film set?
 
So we all know that the Pietta Colt 45 used in the shooting was SA, but was it a transfer bar style hammer? If so, and it appears that the Pietta is a transfer style, then how did the forensics get it to fire by hitting the hammer? Either way, it solidifies that Baldwin is full of shit on his claim of not pulling the trigger.
 
I'm not asking about laws, just protocol on sets. You are laser focused on hammering on what the law says, which I get, but what I want to know is what the industry standard is for safe weapon handling on set. A movie set scenario is a lot different than what I do when I'm taking guns out of my safes to go out to the property to shoot.

Out of curiosity, if an actor is given and gun and ammo that is supposed to be a prop, how would he/she know the difference?

And again, why the hell is any fully functioning firearm or live ammo on a film set?

Post #1160.

OTOH, I can make "dummy rounds" that would be indistinguishable from live rounds by visual inspection.
 
Out of curiosity, if an actor is given and gun and ammo that is supposed to be a prop, how would he/she know the difference?

And again, why the hell is any fully functioning firearm or live ammo on a film set?
Im not an Armorer but my limited research shows they use a few different methods. They drill holes in the casing of live rounds if they need the look of actual rounds, they have rounds without primers and powder as well on top of just straight up fake rounds (like snap caps)
 
Ok, here we go.

At the bottom of the post, is the jury instruction for involuntary manslaughter. I struck out portions that the Judge would likely strike out. I don't know the jury instructions for NM, so this is CA's. Ultimately, invol requires you do an act with criminal negligence that kills someone. While it is going to be helpful for Baldwin to cast blame on the person that already was convicted, his acts are independent. As I gather from the reports, the question for him is whether he was supposed to be aiming a gun at this person, and whether he was supposed to fire a gun at this person.

I don't believe he didn't pull the trigger. The state's experts will be able to get around that without much challenge. I think the biggest issue here will be not to worry about whether or not Baldwin knew the gun had live rounds. Instead, it will be whether he was supposed to point, and fire, a gun at those people. If he was indeed scripted to do so, I can't imagine how on earth he could be held criminally liable for that. If he wasn't, and was joking around or whatever, he should be found guilty-- even if he was told the gun was cold. Firing blanks at someone is inherently dangerous. These aren't toys.

Compare for example, looking down at your radio when you drive a car. Whomp. Hit and kill somone. Did an act that killed someone? Check. Criminal negligence? (Reckless manner that a reasonable person would know can cause GBI/death) Not so much.

Alec Baldwin says the dead girl told him to point (not shoot) the gun at her armpit area. No clue if this is true. But he pulled the trigger, despite his denials.

As I understand it, and I may be wrong because I looked over this quickly, Baldwin's acts meet the criteria of involuntary manslaughter.

Pointed a gun at someone. Pulled the trigger. That act caused a death. Pointing a gun, even a "cold" gun, at someone is reckless and can cause GBI/death. Didn't intend to kill.

Defense1 -- jury nullification/sympathy despite met elements. He can cast blame on someone else, and all he needs is one juror to sympathize with him to preclude a unanimous sentence, thus a retrial.
Defense 2- didn't pull the trigger. If he can prove this, he didn't do an act that caused a death. Without all elements met, no conviction. if he can convince one juror he didn't pull the trigger, he can prevent a unanimous sentence.
Defense 3- He was directed to point the gun, and fire the gun, at the person. At this point, he can shift blame to the armorer and avoid liability.

His sentence? Should be nothing, or next to nothing. He didn't want to kill her. This seems like an accident. A bad accident, but an accident nonetheless.

_____________________________________________________

NOTE-- 581 is the right instruction when murder isn't charged. I already started editing this and I don't want to re-do it. Invol can be charged on its own, or is a lesser included offense of murder. The elements are the same.

580.Involuntary Manslaughter: Lesser Included Offense (Pen.Code, § 192(b))
When a person commits an unlawful killing but does not intend to kill and does not act with conscious disregard for human life, then the crime
is involuntary manslaughter.

The difference between other homicide offenses and involuntary manslaughter depends on whether the person was aware of the risk to life that his or her actions created and consciously disregarded that risk. An unlawful killing caused by a willful act done with full knowledge and awareness that the person is endangering the life of another, and done in conscious disregard of that risk, is voluntary manslaughter or murder. An unlawful killing resulting from a willful act committed without intent to kill and without conscious disregard of the risk to human life is involuntary manslaughter. The defendant committed involuntary manslaughter if:

1. The defendant committed (a crime/ [or] a lawful act in an unlawful manner);
2. The defendant committed the (crime/ [or] act) with criminal negligence;
AND
3. The defendant’s acts caused the death of another person.
[The People allege that the defendant committed the following crime:<insert misdemeanor/infraction)/noninherently dangerous
(felony/felonies)/inherently dangerous assaultive (felony/felonies)>.Instruction tell you what the People must prove in
order to prove that the defendant committed <insertmisdemeanor/infraction)/ noninherently dangerous (felony/felonies)/inherently dangerous assaultive (felony/felonies)>.]

[The People [also] allege that the defendant committed the following lawful act with criminal negligence: <insert act
alleged>.]Criminal negligence involves more than ordinary carelessness, inattention, or mistake in judgment. A person acts with criminal
negligence when:

1. He or she acts in a reckless way that creates a high risk of death or great bodily injury;

AND
2. A reasonable person would have known that acting in that way would create such a risk. In other words, a person acts with criminal negligence when the way he or she acts is so different from the way an ordinarily careful person would act in the same situation that his or her act amounts to disregard for human life or indifference to the consequences of that act.[An act causes death if the death is the direct, natural, and probable consequence of the act and the death would not have happened without the act. A natural and probable consequence is one that a reasonable person would know is likely to happen if nothing unusual intervenes In deciding whether a consequence is natural and probable, consider all of the circumstances established by the evidence.][There may be more than one cause of death. An act causes death only if
it is a substantial factor in causing the death. A substantial factor is morethan a trivial or remote factor. However, it does not need to be the only
factor that causes the death.]Great bodily injury means significant or substantial physical injury. It isan injury that is greater than minor or moderate harm.[The People allege that the defendant committed the following (crime/[and] lawful act with criminal negligence): <insert alleged
predicate acts when multiple acts alleged>. You may not find the defendant guilty unless all of you agree that the People have proved that
the defendant committed at least one of these alleged acts and you all agree that the same act or acts were proved.]
 
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Instead, it will be whether he was supposed to point, and fire, a gun at those people. If he was indeed scripted to do so, I can't imagine how on earth he could be held criminally liable for that. If he wasn't, and was joking around or whatever, he should be found guilty-- even if he was told the gun was cold. Firing blanks at someone is inherently dangerous. These aren't toys.
How would the SAG-AFTRA bulletin specifically prohibiting pointing a gun at a person affect your side of the case?
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Aaron Z
 
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