I’ve got all of that being read, I wonder if I can data log it on the FORScan app.
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2000 Ford F-550 Build
- Thread starter 06h3
- Start date
I’ve got all of that being read, I wonder if I can data log it on the FORScan app.
![[486]](https://data.irate4x4.com/avatars/m/0/94.jpg?1700178133){kind=avatar}
[486]
ugh, that guy again?
cylinder pressure is pretty easy to figure out, just involves time on the dyno
adjust injection timing for peak torque so that you know it isn't over advanced,
then limit that peak torque to something that won't fuckin destroy your driveline or lift the heads
You can calculate cylinder pressure from torque values but it's kind of a useless end-user number to have when everyone's experience of where particular engines blow up is in output figures.
with a mechanical governor the easiest way to limit peak torque without turning it into a gutless dog was to limit boost and let the excess fuel become smoke
with an electronic governor you can pull back the fuel only where it needs to be pulled back, so you could run 200 psi of boost without the engine giving one shit (well, other than the valve guides getting blown dry)
GLTHFJ60
Stupid is as stupid does
If you can, get a weight slip. I want to see what your axle weights are with that tag trailer on there, lol.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
You can I'm sure.
With the HEUI fuel system and it's in-efficiencies there are somethings that have to be tightly controlled to keep the engine from eating itself.
Since you still have a stock volume HPOP it will be very easy for the tuner to over run the INJ PW and draw the HPOP rail pressure down, or to simply command too much oil pressure when the engine can't deliver it and a huge pressure spike will occur upon decel, hammering all the HEUI components.
A common symptom of overdrawn INJ PW and pressure drop is after 3/4 ish throttle the truck no longer accelerates and "seems" just as powerful/fast at 3/4 throttle as it is at 100% throttle.
You mentioned that earlier sort of and with out trying to scare you too much I thought it worth mentioning.
GOOD tuning in my experience was harder to get than I was lead to believe.
Interesting, since tuning isn't going to happen until I am home is there anything I can watch for when towing to avoid hammering the motor? Does an event you mentioned about with 3/4 throttle feeling the same as 100% throttle cause engine failure?
I will look into data logging it.
Made it to KOH! ended up at just over 28k, and almost 65 ft long, pulled like a dream at 70 mph.
I did notice recently at take off it seems to take a second for hpop pressure to come up so I take off with little boost and it’s lethargic then HPOP pressure jumps, boost jumps and she goes.
I did notice recently at take off it seems to take a second for hpop pressure to come up so I take off with little boost and it’s lethargic then HPOP pressure jumps, boost jumps and she goes.
Levigarrett76
Zeus of the Sluice
You can datalog with forscan
theres a plotting tool on fte the guys will help you put it in a graph
theres a plotting tool on fte the guys will help you put it in a graph
CDA 455 II
ANFAQUE2
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Not necessarily but the actual injection timing starts getting screwed up the longer that goes on due to low ICP.
I wouldn't sweat it on this trip, stay in a milder tune and run it on back watching get and boost.
'84 Bronco II
El Chingón
Nailing down the timing is probably the hardest aspect of tuning these trucks. With stock nozzles, can just stick to the factory timing tables with good results, but once you start running larger nozzles and higher oil pressures, it can become a bit of a crapshoot and your results will be highly dependent on the experience of the tuner. Matt at Gearhead performance and Bill at Power Hungry Performance have contributed excellent tech to quite a few threads on some of the 7.3L diesel forums discussing the finer details of tuning 7.3Ls. I highly suggest doing some reading if you want to get a better understanding of how these engines work and how they should properly be tuned. Bill was one of the pioneers of 7.3L tuning and created the tuning software that pretty much all the 7.3L tuners use today.
Here are my cliff notes on timing:
Start of injection (SOI) which you specify in your tuning parameters does not have a constant correlation to start of combustion (SOC) which is what you are really trying to control. SOC is greatly affected by things such as engine operating temperature, ambient air temperature, intake air temperature (post intercooler), and boost levels (really the pressure in the cylinder prior to the compression stroke). Compression ratio and cam timing will also affect things, but most people don't change these parameters. Hotter temperatures and higher boost levels advance SOC, while colder temperatures and lower boost retard SOC. That is why the 7.3L has a cold advance map that will drastically advance SOI at low oil temperatures since the fuel burns much slower at low temperatures. Also, injection pulse width will play a huge role in timing at higher RPMs where the available injection window becomes shorter. High RPM is where larger nozzles really shine since they can deliver the same amount of fuel with a much shorter pulse width which allows more of the fuel to be injected at optimal timing. Optimal timing will produce the highest torque/power and the best fuel efficiency. Many people erroneously believe that the more you advance your timing the more torque you will make since cylinder pressures go up. The problem is that cylinder pressure does not necessarily correlate to torque, and the further you advance the timing beyond what is "optimal", the more "negative" work is being done. Any combustion pressure developed before TDC is doing negative work, and combustion pressures generated after TDC are doing positive work. You want your peak combustion pressure to occur after TDC in order for the engine to be able do any work. Due to crankshaft geometry, you want your peak combustion pressure to occur around 12-14º ATDC. The peak cylinder pressure increases exponentially as you advance past the optimum 12-14º ATDC point and that is what lifts heads and blows apart bottom ends. The problem is that unlike spark ignition engines, you cant precisely control when combustion starts.
Here is an excellent read on diesel timing: http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/03/diesel-timing.html
As alluded to earlier, the only way to really get your timing maps nailed down is to do some live tuning with a shop that is equipped to monitor cylinder pressures. I know Swamps offered this service in the past, but it is above and beyond what 99.99% of people are willing or able to do. A competent tuner and standard live tuning should be sufficient, and a very experienced tuner should be able to get you 90%+ there iterating over email.
As far as your question about what to monitor or data log, there isn't really really anything you can do to monitor timing. If your timing is too retarded, you'll see higher EGTs, the diesel "clatter" will become much more subdued/reduced, you will be down on power and get bad fuel economy. If your timing is too advanced, your engine will be very loud (very pronounced diesel clatter), and you will be down on power. Obviously being too advanced is the worse of the two scenarios. The only way to optimize timing without pressure transducers in the glow plug holes is to perform timing sweeps in your tune and iteratively test in a repeatable environment (dynamometer). The timing that makes the most power for a given amount of fuel injected will also be the most efficient.
Here are my cliff notes on timing:
Start of injection (SOI) which you specify in your tuning parameters does not have a constant correlation to start of combustion (SOC) which is what you are really trying to control. SOC is greatly affected by things such as engine operating temperature, ambient air temperature, intake air temperature (post intercooler), and boost levels (really the pressure in the cylinder prior to the compression stroke). Compression ratio and cam timing will also affect things, but most people don't change these parameters. Hotter temperatures and higher boost levels advance SOC, while colder temperatures and lower boost retard SOC. That is why the 7.3L has a cold advance map that will drastically advance SOI at low oil temperatures since the fuel burns much slower at low temperatures. Also, injection pulse width will play a huge role in timing at higher RPMs where the available injection window becomes shorter. High RPM is where larger nozzles really shine since they can deliver the same amount of fuel with a much shorter pulse width which allows more of the fuel to be injected at optimal timing. Optimal timing will produce the highest torque/power and the best fuel efficiency. Many people erroneously believe that the more you advance your timing the more torque you will make since cylinder pressures go up. The problem is that cylinder pressure does not necessarily correlate to torque, and the further you advance the timing beyond what is "optimal", the more "negative" work is being done. Any combustion pressure developed before TDC is doing negative work, and combustion pressures generated after TDC are doing positive work. You want your peak combustion pressure to occur after TDC in order for the engine to be able do any work. Due to crankshaft geometry, you want your peak combustion pressure to occur around 12-14º ATDC. The peak cylinder pressure increases exponentially as you advance past the optimum 12-14º ATDC point and that is what lifts heads and blows apart bottom ends. The problem is that unlike spark ignition engines, you cant precisely control when combustion starts.
Here is an excellent read on diesel timing: http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/03/diesel-timing.html
As alluded to earlier, the only way to really get your timing maps nailed down is to do some live tuning with a shop that is equipped to monitor cylinder pressures. I know Swamps offered this service in the past, but it is above and beyond what 99.99% of people are willing or able to do. A competent tuner and standard live tuning should be sufficient, and a very experienced tuner should be able to get you 90%+ there iterating over email.
As far as your question about what to monitor or data log, there isn't really really anything you can do to monitor timing. If your timing is too retarded, you'll see higher EGTs, the diesel "clatter" will become much more subdued/reduced, you will be down on power and get bad fuel economy. If your timing is too advanced, your engine will be very loud (very pronounced diesel clatter), and you will be down on power. Obviously being too advanced is the worse of the two scenarios. The only way to optimize timing without pressure transducers in the glow plug holes is to perform timing sweeps in your tune and iteratively test in a repeatable environment (dynamometer). The timing that makes the most power for a given amount of fuel injected will also be the most efficient.
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Muckin_Slusher
****
Cool. Thanks for that.
I`ve been dreaming about getting a 550 crew 203 and putting a hook truck setup on it to lessen my use of trailers. A wheelbase like yours would allow a 12 foot flatbed and room for the hooktruck thing.
I need 4x4 though.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
'84 Bronco II Great job on that summary.
As everyone in there own separate way is suggesting is for you to learn a little about all this so you can see the engine performing correctly or not.
I sound like a broken record but there is a big difference from a empty F-250 feeling fast on main street and a F-550 grossing 28k on a 7 mile climb.
As everyone in there own separate way is suggesting is for you to learn a little about all this so you can see the engine performing correctly or not.
I sound like a broken record but there is a big difference from a empty F-250 feeling fast on main street and a F-550 grossing 28k on a 7 mile climb.
Thanks for the info guys!!! I will get all caught up on it when I am home. Truck is getting another workout, my buddy’s 4500 car broke an axle housing and had to drive back to his house (about 100 miles) and I can’t say the truck is down on power but it does feel slower. We had a 2-3k trailer, and his 5k Jeep, would bad timing cause lower compression or something? Maybe it’s a figment or my imagination too
'84 Bronco II
El Chingón
Timing will not affect the compression. If your EGTs are reasonable, you are getting reasonable mileage, and your engine doesn't sound like it is trying to blow itself apart, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Ok! So 2200 miles and I am back home. The truck did great! As in, it got me there and home and the truck didn't leave me stranded.
Here was the whole setup, 28k lbs.
I was loaded at 19,420 lbs with 13,520 lbs on the rear axle from Boise ID to So Cal, Santa Clarita to be exact. That was just the truck, H3 and camping shit for a week. I drove at a max of 73 mph. I couldn't get new tires in time for the trip and I had no spare. The tires on the truck were 7 year old chinese garbage. The tires were rated for 75 and didn't want to get too close to that, especially with all that weight. I mainly drove between 65-70. I will get new quality tires and run it quicker. It was loud and revved but it seemed ok. I think 245's will help add a couple more mph. At 73 mph it felt stable. I will continue to monitor what pisses me off and make a decision on the rpm deal. I wish I knew what EGT's would be like at lower RPM at 65-70, at what point is revving out not going to make a difference like, is 2200-2800 the same? Or does every rpm change make a difference in EGT to redline?
At 28k lbs I pulled up the 14 freeway (decent grades) and was able to maintain 60-70 the whole way. I got under 60 once as I got caught behind a truck. The 4.88s probably helped CA towing speeds around 60-65.
The 395 had bad crosswinds but to be honest, the F550's suspension is so stout it didn't feel sketchy with all that weight up there. I actually was surprised...From a suspension standpoint I plan to leave it alone in the rear for how stable it was...up front I will do the coil swap when I do the 05+ F550 Super 60 I have.
I do have some concerns with that much weight on the rear end. I think if I ever did do a gear change I would want the S135 R&P. I have heard they are underrated but even then, they are rated for 13500lbs and I was 15500lbs. It wasn't an issue this time around as it was cold out but I am curious if it will become an issue in the Summer.
EGT's I tried to stay at 1100 max to be careful, it is my first trip out, far from home and wanted to be careful. As I get more comfortable I will push it harder. For the most part EGT's were manageable. I would be curious how much worse they are in the heat. I have a stock 7.3 intercooler, outside of the intercooler was clean but the inside wasn't touched so it is probably nasty.
The complaints....at times the HPOP pressure would sit at 2900psi and spike up to 3700psi and it made me uncomfortable. That was for a portion of the drive on the way home. After I turned off the truck and gassed up it would then sit much closer to 2400 psi. I dont know if that is a faulty pressure sensor or something serious. I also noticed that getting off the line HPOP pressure were slow to rise and felt very sluggish then it was jump quickly once it hit 1500psi. That wasn't like that on the way down to so cal. I think the 2 things are probably related.
Other complaint was this setup pictured above, any tune it was sluggish, once I was at speed I could hold it but it was slow to get to speed. This setup was lighter then the other setups. I had to drive 3 hours to my buddy's house to fix his 4500 car that bent and broke a front housing before race day. Even with the jeep off the trailer it was sluggish, once the trailer was gone, it felt much better, it may have been a trailer brake issue, who knows, we were in a rush and didn't have time to fuck with it. My concern was that it was an actually issue that came and went....hopefully it wasnt.
This isn't a complaint, it is a "no shit" moment but it's loud as fuck, I know it will never be as quiet as a 2012 truck but the cab is the same from 1999 to 2016? they had to add sound deadening crap to it, the 7.3 will always be louder then a 6.7 but I am sure improvements were made over time especially since the cab was the same. I know a guy who dynamatted his truck up to the bottom of the firewall ( without removing the dash) and had iffy results but another guy removed the dash and did the whole firewall and felt it was a big difference for the 7.3. I would consider it, do any of you guys have experience with it?
Trans never got hot! That was super exciting!!
Now that I am home, have experience with it towing heavy, and it still runs and drives I would like to fix the issues above and push the truck a little harder up grades and see what it does. I stayed on the heavy tow tune the whole time, I was in a rush to get down there and didn't want to experiment far from home. I will also add under load and grades boost was 28-30lbs without my foot all the way in it. Again, I didnt want to push it.
I will add in more comments if I forgot some!
Here was the whole setup, 28k lbs.
I was loaded at 19,420 lbs with 13,520 lbs on the rear axle from Boise ID to So Cal, Santa Clarita to be exact. That was just the truck, H3 and camping shit for a week. I drove at a max of 73 mph. I couldn't get new tires in time for the trip and I had no spare. The tires on the truck were 7 year old chinese garbage. The tires were rated for 75 and didn't want to get too close to that, especially with all that weight. I mainly drove between 65-70. I will get new quality tires and run it quicker. It was loud and revved but it seemed ok. I think 245's will help add a couple more mph. At 73 mph it felt stable. I will continue to monitor what pisses me off and make a decision on the rpm deal. I wish I knew what EGT's would be like at lower RPM at 65-70, at what point is revving out not going to make a difference like, is 2200-2800 the same? Or does every rpm change make a difference in EGT to redline?
At 28k lbs I pulled up the 14 freeway (decent grades) and was able to maintain 60-70 the whole way. I got under 60 once as I got caught behind a truck. The 4.88s probably helped CA towing speeds around 60-65.
The 395 had bad crosswinds but to be honest, the F550's suspension is so stout it didn't feel sketchy with all that weight up there. I actually was surprised...From a suspension standpoint I plan to leave it alone in the rear for how stable it was...up front I will do the coil swap when I do the 05+ F550 Super 60 I have.
I do have some concerns with that much weight on the rear end. I think if I ever did do a gear change I would want the S135 R&P. I have heard they are underrated but even then, they are rated for 13500lbs and I was 15500lbs. It wasn't an issue this time around as it was cold out but I am curious if it will become an issue in the Summer.
EGT's I tried to stay at 1100 max to be careful, it is my first trip out, far from home and wanted to be careful. As I get more comfortable I will push it harder. For the most part EGT's were manageable. I would be curious how much worse they are in the heat. I have a stock 7.3 intercooler, outside of the intercooler was clean but the inside wasn't touched so it is probably nasty.
The complaints....at times the HPOP pressure would sit at 2900psi and spike up to 3700psi and it made me uncomfortable. That was for a portion of the drive on the way home. After I turned off the truck and gassed up it would then sit much closer to 2400 psi. I dont know if that is a faulty pressure sensor or something serious. I also noticed that getting off the line HPOP pressure were slow to rise and felt very sluggish then it was jump quickly once it hit 1500psi. That wasn't like that on the way down to so cal. I think the 2 things are probably related.
Other complaint was this setup pictured above, any tune it was sluggish, once I was at speed I could hold it but it was slow to get to speed. This setup was lighter then the other setups. I had to drive 3 hours to my buddy's house to fix his 4500 car that bent and broke a front housing before race day. Even with the jeep off the trailer it was sluggish, once the trailer was gone, it felt much better, it may have been a trailer brake issue, who knows, we were in a rush and didn't have time to fuck with it. My concern was that it was an actually issue that came and went....hopefully it wasnt.
This isn't a complaint, it is a "no shit" moment but it's loud as fuck, I know it will never be as quiet as a 2012 truck but the cab is the same from 1999 to 2016? they had to add sound deadening crap to it, the 7.3 will always be louder then a 6.7 but I am sure improvements were made over time especially since the cab was the same. I know a guy who dynamatted his truck up to the bottom of the firewall ( without removing the dash) and had iffy results but another guy removed the dash and did the whole firewall and felt it was a big difference for the 7.3. I would consider it, do any of you guys have experience with it?
Trans never got hot! That was super exciting!!
Now that I am home, have experience with it towing heavy, and it still runs and drives I would like to fix the issues above and push the truck a little harder up grades and see what it does. I stayed on the heavy tow tune the whole time, I was in a rush to get down there and didn't want to experiment far from home. I will also add under load and grades boost was 28-30lbs without my foot all the way in it. Again, I didnt want to push it.
I will add in more comments if I forgot some!
[486]
ugh, that guy again?
well, easy way to simulate it would be to haul something with significantly worse aero drag at whatever RPM you want to regear to
maybe find someone with a long bumperpull car trailer and load it up with open tops that got rollcages, they're about the worst you can get for aero. where your camper is fairly streamlined and punches a cleaner hole, they'll have air going through the whole mess dragging on everything
maybe stacks of pallets up to max legal height, spaced 8' apart so each stack catches some new wind, all the way down the deck and down the longest trailer you can borrow
CDA 455 II
ANFAQUE2
Awesome! 
How did you get your rig on and off the flatbed?
How did you get your rig on and off the flatbed?
GLTHFJ60
Stupid is as stupid does
My egts towing 20k gross on flat land with 4.30s were lower than what it used to be with 4.88s, similar weight. Hard to believe, but it's true in my truck. Huge other benefit of the 4.30s was how much quieter it was in the cab. Not quite night and day difference, but significantly quieter.
As far as rear axle weight rating, the s130 is rated up to 16,500 in some configs, which has the same wheel bearings and housing as your s135. The weight is not a problem IMHO.
As far as rear axle weight rating, the s130 is rated up to 16,500 in some configs, which has the same wheel bearings and housing as your s135. The weight is not a problem IMHO.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
MY concern too would be wheel bearings for your weight but not R&P size unless you are going to be bound up and tugging it.
But I wouldn't be worried about either personally.
Keep good oil in it to the proper level.
GLTHFJ60
Stupid is as stupid does
That's what I'm saying, the wheel bearings/spindles are the same in axles rated up to 16,500#, so it's not a huge concern. Fluid level and maintenance is top of mind though, agree. The factory fluid is $$$.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Might have been mentioned already, but if you gotta do tires, have you thought about jumping to 22.5s? Even "low pro" 255/75r22.5 are almost 37s.
Should be good for roughly 10-12 mph
Should be good for roughly 10-12 mph
Awesome!
How did you get your rig on and off the flatbed?
I have ramps, I will be building mine own, for now I am borrowing a friends crazy long and also custom built ramps.
I will keep an eye on the wheel bearings, I should probably check them for endplay. Who knows if they have been touched in 390k.
I will check out that tire size on some Fords, I think I have seen them on a lifted dodge tow pig parked at loon lake and they were goofy looking as they were sunken into the body, super narrow and tall. Obviously offset can change that.
Does anyone have personal experience with the USGear Dual Range overdrive? I found one for an e4od/4R100 but it appears to be a 2wd unit 
From what I have read they are rated for 35k GCWR and are the big badass version of a gearvendors. Everything I have read has been positive, I am wondering if I can find a back half housing to work for a 4wd unfortunately that brownie box sold before I got back to ID from KOH.
Since my only knowledge is from what I have read, it seems they stopped making them once US Gear was bought out but it was a stout unit.
From what I have read they are rated for 35k GCWR and are the big badass version of a gearvendors. Everything I have read has been positive, I am wondering if I can find a back half housing to work for a 4wd unfortunately that brownie box sold before I got back to ID from KOH.
Since my only knowledge is from what I have read, it seems they stopped making them once US Gear was bought out but it was a stout unit.
arse_sidewards
Can't unlearn
Does anyone have personal experience with the USGear Dual Range overdrive? I found one for an e4od/4R100 but it appears to be a 2wd unit
From what I have read they are rated for 35k GCWR and are the big badass version of a gearvendors. Everything I have read has been positive, I am wondering if I can find a back half housing to work for a 4wd unfortunately that brownie box sold before I got back to ID from KOH.
Since my only knowledge is from what I have read, it seems they stopped making them once US Gear was bought out but it was a stout unit.
If it's really that great get it. 2wd and 4wd are both the same 31spl, worst case you make an adapter.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
I'd grab it, heard a lot of good about them also. What's the ratio?
I'd bet the unit is the same for 2wd or 4wd and that tube piece is the adapter. So either keep am eye out for a 4wd adapter or ditch that one and try to make your own.
Or run a divorced case behind it.
How long until you are doing the 4wd? Do you really even need it? Or just cause?
I'd bet the unit is the same for 2wd or 4wd and that tube piece is the adapter. So either keep am eye out for a 4wd adapter or ditch that one and try to make your own.
Or run a divorced case behind it.
How long until you are doing the 4wd? Do you really even need it? Or just cause?
arse_sidewards
Can't unlearn
I am not sure how easy an adapter would be for this.
That will be cake to adapt to a 4wd. Get it.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
So Google says they are 20% OD or 0.80:1, which is sweet since it's actually a little different than the trans OD of 0.71:1, so you actually are splitting gears vs just having only double OD.
With it engaged, it will effectively turn the 4.88s into 3.90s.
With it engaged, it will effectively turn the 4.88s into 3.90s.