DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration

I bought the box but when I went through it, granite over a year ago but it looked the same as pictures. It’s a Saginaw box.

Everything’s new and tight.

What should the toe be? We have a 1/16 or 1/8 toed in. We are going to check that again though.
 
Malburg114 said:
I bought the box but when I went through it, granite over a year ago but it looked the same as pictures. It’s a Saginaw box.

Everything’s new and tight.

What should the toe be? We have a 1/16 or 1/8 toed in. We are going to check that again though.
Click to expand...
I think most guys run 1/8" toe. Even if you are in the ballpark, it should be fine. It shouldn't make the car hunt back and forth. I was racing with a guy that replaced a tie rod on a full hydro system and it was much shorter. He ended up with like 1.5" of toe without realizing it. Even at that amount of toe, it was noticeable but didn't result in driving like you are talking about.
 
broken4_racing said:
I think most guys run 1/8" toe. Even if you are in the ballpark, it should be fine. It shouldn't make the car hunt back and forth. I was racing with a guy that replaced a tie rod on a full hydro system and it was much shorter. He ended up with like 1.5" of toe without realizing it. Even at that amount of toe, it was noticeable but didn't result in driving like you are talking about.
Click to expand...
Toe out will absolutely result in it trying to turn "somewhere" all the time rather than track straight though.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Toe out will absolutely result in it trying to turn "somewhere" all the time rather than track straight though.
Click to expand...
Agreed, although I haven't experienced that as "hunting" though. More just a slow drift side to side. I guess I picture this more as darting.
 
I would throw my hat in with the group telling you there is freeplay or something worn in the system to cause the darting around. Once that is figured out, you may need a torsion bar change.

Some people even run 3/16 toe out(on purpose). And it does not cause the servo valve to oscillate and shake. If it does the ‘death shake’ it will do it on flat ground, no forward movement, just moving the wheel left and right.
 
Thinking it may have been the toe. It was toed out about an 1/8 so we adjusted to be toed in 1/8th. No “death shake” at idle or when not moving. It steers great moving and stopped and the small amount offroad we did it wasn’t noticeable. Just on the asphalt. Waiting on a thermostat and then I’ll drive it again.
 
I can finally post here with something hopefully useful. After too much reading, trying to push it down the road, etc. I finally cracked the box open to do the 4500 steering mods.

Delphi 600 series. I know the 1st gen xterra, WJ, and JK use this series box.

I used this box for 10 years with ram assist on my SAS H3, it fits nicely on this platform when SASing it.

I always hated the 3.75 turn guts in the Xterra box. The WJ box I picked up has 2.75 turn guts so I swapped that over and have it mechanically setup to be faster then that.

I’ve been DMing AgitatedPancake on it as he’s very familiar with the Delphi 600 box.

Here’s our latest conversation.

“I will get this into the delphi 600 thread but the xterra and WJ share the same parts. Figured I would talk to you here first.


1772833296937.png



Saginaw box....you pull the spool valve off, you weld where it’s green, to make the input shaft and torsion bar solid, then slide the spool valve back on because there is a slot and pin on the inside of the spool valve.

on the delphi 600 because of whats circled (the pin) the spool valve MUST go on first, there isnt a slot, if you put the input shaft(2) in first, weld it, then try to put the spool valve on (1) it wont go....so can I create a slot in the spool valve? then tig tack it in place?

If you hammer the pin out it gets stuck between the hole and the pressed in torsion bar. I struggled to pull the pin out. So ideally the pin has to come out or you slot the spool valve.

Thoughts? Maybe I am looking at it wrong.”

1772833283704.png


Since he’s had these boxes apart, he knows how they go together.

“Hmmmm interesting, I see the dilemma here. Yeah you see it right, in the delphi 600 you kind of have to rock the spool valve a little to pop it off that locating pin, which means the input shaft can't be fixed in place. So you either have to slot the spool valve, or pull the pin and put it in after installing the spool valve.

I'd be a little wary of relying on a tig tack after assembly, just because I bet there's some long term flex/fatigue in these systems overall, where the pin interface allows a little wiggle instead of letting a weld crack. If you can manage to get the pin out by pulling outward, it would be cool if you could install it after assembling the spool, but they would be locked together forever haha.

Another idea, if you could get the pin out of that central section, then tap that hole for a set screw. Maybe use a regular tapered tap and don't finish cutting past the taper in the last few threads so it has thread locking like a deformed metal locknut, plus some red loctite. Once installed, it can't stick out past the surface of the spool valve so you'd just have to set the depth to work with that

Actually expanding on that idea, the perfect world would be a shouldered set screw, so you actually bottom out the shoulder and get a bit of torque when it's fully seated, then have a decently tight tolerance to the spool on the shoulder (you would need to drill the current hole oversized, to match the OD of the threads you choose for the set screw”

1772833270242.png


JR4X didnt your brother do JK boxes with your mods? They should be the same internally.

Anyways, I’ll figure out a way to get the pin out. Saginaw box definitely seems easier in how it goes together compared to a Delphi 600 for 4500 steering box mods.

I just wanted to share my experiences so the next guy knows if they are using a Delphi box.
 
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1772835222738.png


1772835237511.png


I reposted the pics in the post above but if it doesnt come up here it is.

1st pic Saginaw box....you pull the spool valve off, you weld where it’s green, to make the input shaft and torsion bar solid, then slide the spool valve back on because there is a slot and pin on the inside of the spool valve.

2nd pic...on the delphi 600 because of whats circled (the pin) the spool valve MUST go on first, there isnt a slot, if you put the input shaft(2) in first, weld it, then try to put the spool valve on (1) it wont go....so can I create a slot in the spool valve? then tig tack it in place?
 
I’m interested to see what other people think about solving this one for sure. The headless shoulder screw seems most elegant, but most annoying and specialized part.

Cutting a slot so you can just slip the servo directly into place with the input shaft welded seems the easiest. But that would lose the pins ability to locate in one direction hence the need to weld it to the pin once installed so the servo can’t walk out of position in use. My only concern there is if there was any flex/movement in that joint over time (that the pin handles fine), some small welds might crack and allow it to walk.

But that’s just shooting from the hip, I’m curious how JRs brother locked out the servo in ‘em
 
That pin is only there to locate ports for the spool valve. That function becomes irrelevant when you no longer put hydraulic pressure to that servo. If you manualize a powered box just get rid of that pin all together.
 
JR4X said:
That pin is only there to locate ports for the spool valve. That function becomes irrelevant when you no longer put hydraulic pressure to that servo. If you manualize a powered box just get rid of that pin all together.
Click to expand...

Oooh yeah that’s a fair point, I was forgetting about the entire scope here, do you even need the servo barrel at all? I haven’t manual converted a box yet…but seems like something that could possibly be deleted all together
 
AgitatedPancake said:
Oooh yeah that’s a fair point, I was forgetting about the entire scope here, do you even need the servo barrel at all? I haven’t manual converted a box yet…but seems like something that could possibly be deleted all together
Click to expand...
You do still have to have the main barrel in there because that’s what pilots and centers the input shaft. There is a part of the servo I throw away in a Saginaw box but gotta have the barrel
 
JR4X said:
You do still have to have the main barrel in there because that’s what pilots and centers the input shaft. There is a part of the servo I throw away in a Saginaw box but gotta have the barrel
Click to expand...
Hmmm, is that the case on the Delphi boxes too?

The end if the input is a male spline that slips into the main body with some female splines (which seem like they must have the desired wiggle room for torsion bar twist, but set the max twist limit before metal on metal contact)

But those should support that end of the input, and the other end has a bearing iirc.

IMG_2614.jpeg
 
AgitatedPancake said:
Hmmm, is that the case on the Delphi boxes too?

The end if the input is a male spline that slips into the main body with some female splines (which seem like they must have the desired wiggle room for torsion bar twist, but set the max twist limit before metal on metal contact)

But those should support that end of the input, and the other end has a bearing iirc.

IMG_2614.jpeg
Click to expand...
You guys will have to experiment with it and see. I haven’t done it yet. On the Saginaw the Torrington bearing on the outer end pressures directly onto the barrel to pre load the barrel valve into the case. What does a Delphi use for thrust?
 
JR4X said:
You guys will have to experiment with it and see. I haven’t done it yet. On the Saginaw the Torrington bearing on the outer end pressures directly onto the barrel to pre load the barrel valve into the case. What does a Delphi use for thrust?
Click to expand...

This big puck has torringtons on either side, is installed from the left side of this shaft and rides against that shoulder you see in the center of the shaft, then a nut sets the preload. The puck is held into the steering box housing with a shoulder on one side and a c clip that resists all of the hydraulic force going the other way. No thrust forces on the servo in these ones afaik

IMG_2616.jpeg


IMG_2615.jpeg
 
Got to drive it a little more today. Video below. Got up to 45 on the pavement and it felt like it was going to swap side to side off the road. Still fighting overheating which is a separate issue but it feels like under acceleration/giving it throttle the jerkiness is worse.

I feel like I can feel the left and right valves (possibly in the servo?) opening which is causing it to change direction. But just a hand on the wheel is enough to keep it going semi straight. But the faster you go the more dramatic it becomes go figure.

We checked the toe and it was originally an 1/8 out. We adjusted it to an 1/8 In. All heims etc are brand new. No loose bolts or anything that I can find.

Video. Watch the wheel and th little input I’m having to give. Can also see it in the phone as it’s going back and forth from the car jolting.
 
If you had your box apart, which you said you have, how did you de-power it. Walk us through what you did.
Parts modification, what welding did you see or do, what did you set the pitman arm preload too, what did you set the now non-functional servo valve preload too, do you have the box vented or sealed. Sweet servo I gather? Which torsion bar size.
Put up a pic of your draglink-tierod setup .
 
Box was depowered when I got it. Just swapped a new sector shaft in and put it back together based off write ups. It functioned correctly from the guy I got it from. He stopped using it as he had issues with it shaking at idle that everyone talks about. No pictures unfortunately and it’s been over a year since I’ve been inside the box.

Power steering ports were welded up and the front cap was tapped for a grease zirc to fill it full of grease. Top cap was tapped for a breather. All by previous owner.

Sweet servo that was ported by Howe or whatever they do. .210 I think for the torsion.

I can take a better picture of the draglink/panhard tomorrow. I’ll check the box tomorrow to see if there’s play in it too.
IMG_1406.jpeg


I plan to check the sector shaft pre load tomorrow to make sure that it’s engaging as it should as I suppose that could cause the pitman arm to walk back and forth based off the road which then could go back to the servo I guess?
IMG_1907.png
 
Sounds good so far.
Have you noticed the servo in your box being welded up so the torsion spring is ineffective? So, pitman arm locked still, zero (or near enough) and no rotational
Movement on the input?

Have you had your Howe servo apart?

I have seen this problem from a few things. 1 pitman freeplay adjustment too tight, and its to tight to go through center. This then applies hydro pressure to one side till it forces its way through the tight center, the opens the servo the other way. 2 the servo input preload way to tight. It compresses the torsion bar into a twist, and does not let it sit at neutral. Requires constant driver input to either go into the neutral spot, but also overshoots centre and start death wobble sometimes too. This applies to the servo that is in the hydaulic circuit. 3 a nicked or collapsed or worn servo seals. Pressure is not balanced between left and right because of it, causes an oscillation.
4 freeplay in the system. To loose of adjustments in the steering box. Worn sector shaft or ball nut. Servo that hasn’t been welded in depowered box.
Other thoughts
Your instructions to set the preload on a box is kinda vague. While apart, set the input adjustments to 4-6in-lbs drag. 10-12~if piston and sector shaft is installed. No more then 16in-lbs while travelling through center.
The variable ratio box’s have more problems with the sector shaft adjustments then the constant ratio boxes. Obviously if your new sector shaft is variable and mismatched to a constant ratio piston problems will arise.

Yes I have designed and raced 4500 steering.
 
Lastly, what pump are you running, pulley size, and where is your resi in relation to your servo(hieght wise) . It’s possible to have the servo higher the the resi and it will keep air pockets in it.
Also, pre KOH prep I changed fluid out for fresh, and system was shaking a bit again. Had air bubbles trapped in ram, needed thorough bleed procedure, shakes went away.
These are the cheap and easy solutions. Once getting into servo torsion bar tuning, the price of a change is 1k
 
Negative on having the servo being apart.

Radial dynamics pump with 5.5” pulley. Psc resi. The small fluid cooler from Griffen radiators. Servo and pump are both below the resi fitting. -6 feeds. -8 returns.

System doesn’t shake at all that I’ve experienced. It’s very reactive/fast I feel. Way better than hydro assist on my other truck.

I’ll start going through things and checking. Thank you for the help. If you or anyone else thinks of anything else please keep posting. This is all new to me.
 
Malburg114 said:
Negative on having the servo being apart.

Radial dynamics pump with 5.5” pulley. Psc resi. The small fluid cooler from Griffen radiators. Servo and pump are both below the resi fitting. -6 feeds. -8 returns.

System doesn’t shake at all that I’ve experienced. It’s very reactive/fast I feel. Way better than hydro assist on my other truck.
Click to expand...
Then if your box is all good, you may be looking at changing to a .220 servo.
Price wise, likely, it’s better to just buy a new servo with a different size bar. Then sell the old one.
 
Fwjeep what is the most common size that you’ve seen be successful? I just realized I accidentally ordered a .220 torsion bar servo and I meant to order a .200. I ordered it back in August so I’m sure I’m ****ed now. anyways I’ll give it a try as I’m a few weeks away from my initial start up and test drive but I worry I will be changing out that torsion bar
 
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