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DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration

SLOWPOKE693 said:
Was this the same kit you tried helping a guy with on the old site? I remember reading about that one and remember you trying like hell to get him sorted out even though he was using a different parts recipe than what you recommend he should be running. Sounds like it never got fixed and that he passed his troubles onto someone else.
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Sounds like it, that’s why I asked who had it for sale. Basically I’m trying to figure out if there’s any salvaging any of the parts this guy got his hands on or if I have to break him the bad news that he got took on however much cash he spent to buy a pile of worthless pieces.

The “kit” didn’t work for most people. But the only update I have to this stuff is the increase in cost. When I started doing this the Servo itself was under $600 dollars. Now, that thing is $1,000 bucks. A sweet steering box is $700 bucks last I looked. Kevin and I have even more systems out there working perfectly in the last couple years but it has gotten even more cost prohibitive.
 
JR4X said:
Sounds like it, that’s why I asked who had it for sale. Basically I’m trying to figure out if there’s any salvaging any of the parts this guy got his hands on or if I have to break him the bad news that he got took on however much cash he spent to buy a pile of worthless pieces.

The “kit” didn’t work for most people. But the only update I have to this stuff is the increase in cost. When I started doing this the Servo itself was under $600 dollars. Now, that thing is $1,000 bucks. A sweet steering box is $700 bucks last I looked. Kevin and I have even more systems out there working perfectly in the last couple years but it has gotten even more cost prohibitive.
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I wonder if OP got the piles of torsion bars they kept swapping in and out to fix it. :laughing:

All the circle track racers in the country thank you guys for being the reason their steering parts are now almost double.... :flipoff2:
 
JR4X said:
Who did you get the old stuff from? I knew almost everyone that bought one. The servo that PSC sold in that kit was 1/2 the problem with all the kit issues I tried to help with and the box was the other half. Not the ram.

I’ve been recommending XJ steering boxes if you are specifically interested in junkyard boxes. XJ’s are usually 12:1. All the successful setups I’ve built or helped get built have 2 1/2” rams.

If you can use a JK box, Justin Hall has a vetted functioning setup for sale off his 4500 car. He’ll sell the JK box separate, Kevin Rants built that box.
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A guy in southern Utah has the kit. I haven’t got it yet but supposed to pick it up this weekend with an xj box as well. He thought his ram may be an issue as he’s still having steering issues and that’s the only that hasn’t been changed. What was the issue with the servo from psc? I’ll attstch a picture of it if that helps identify it.

Not necessarily wanting to use a junkyard box but a cheaper easy to find box from rockauto or an auto parts store. With a 12:1 ratio, what are you seeing lock to lock turn wise?

I talked to Justin hall and he was a huge help. I’ll message him to see if he wants to sell his box. He sent me the info for the servo he used as well so would be easy to replicate his setup.

What’s the part number for the box you used in the new bronco? I know it’s a 10:1 but there are several 10:1 boxes sweet offers.
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Malburg114 said:
A guy in southern Utah has the kit. I haven’t got it yet but supposed to pick it up this weekend with an xj box as well. He thought his ram may be an issue as he’s still having steering issues and that’s the only that hasn’t been changed. What was the issue with the servo from psc? I’ll attstch a picture of it if that helps identify it.

Not necessarily wanting to use a junkyard box but a cheaper easy to find box from rockauto or an auto parts store. With a 12:1 ratio, what are you seeing lock to lock turn wise?

I talked to Justin hall and he was a huge help. I’ll message him to see if he wants to sell his box. He sent me the info for the servo he used as well so would be easy to replicate his setup.

What’s the part number for the box you used in the new bronco? I know it’s a 10:1 but there are several 10:1 boxes sweet offers.
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Score! That’s the correct servo! I don’t know what you paid for your parts but if you buy that one brand new today it’s going to be over a thousand bucks shipped just for that.

As far as part number. I don’t currently see that. Summit Racing was selling them, that’s where mine came from but SR is no longer selling Sweet mfg boxes. 10:1 must not have been popular or something because I can’t find Sweet 10:1 anymore

Speedway has the sweet boxes but they skip 10:1 now

 
JR4X said:
Score! That’s the correct servo! I don’t know what you paid for your parts but if you buy that one brand new today it’s going to be over a thousand bucks shipped just for that.

As far as part number. I don’t currently see that. Summit Racing was selling them, that’s where mine came from but SR is no longer selling Sweet mfg boxes. 10:1 must not have been popular or something because I can’t find Sweet 10:1 anymore

Speedway has the sweet boxes but they skip 10:1 now

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Sweet good to know.

Here’s a picture of the box as well. Which appears to be the same as the one on the first page of this thread. Would you use something like this, a Saginaw box or what do you recommend for a low count lock to lock?

Looks like I can order a 10:1 box directly from sweet but would a 8:1 or 12:1 work incase they are discontinuing the boxes?
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Malburg114 said:
Sweet good to know.

Here’s a picture of the box as well. Which appears to be the same as the one on the first page of this thread. Would you use something like this, a Saginaw box or what do you recommend for a low count lock to lock?

Looks like I can order a 10:1 box directly from sweet but would a 8:1 or 12:1 work incase they are discontinuing the boxes?
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I would throw that away. I would plead with you to throw that box away but I’ll settle for shelf or selling it by itself on marketplace or whatever. If you attempt use that box you are on your own to figure out how to make anything work. (You won’t… make it work, that’s why you have it)

I would rather see you use 10:1 or 8:1, personally I think you’ll be happier with either of those than a 12:1. But 12:1 is the low end of the mechanical scale at which you will find success. I’m happy to hear of anyone else interest in trying the de-powered sweet box out. They are a legitimate upgrade to a recirculating ball but, much smoother more precise from lock to lock.
 
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Glad this all came back up. In the early stages of figuring out what to do to make it all work with 47s street driven buggy. Stinks the Sweet valves are a grand now.
 
JR4X said:
I would throw that away. I would plead with you to throw that box away but I’ll settle for shelf or selling it by itself on marketplace or whatever. If you attempt use that box you are on your own to figure out how to make anything work. (You won’t… make it work, that’s why you have it)

I would rather see you use 10:1 or 8:1, personally I think you’ll be happier with either of those than a 12:1. But 12:1 is the low end of the mechanical scale at which you will find success. I’m happy to hear of anyone else interest in trying the de-powered sweet box out. They are a legitimate upgrade to a recirculating ball back, much smoother more precise from lock to lock.
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Cool sweet shows the 10:1 on their website. I’ll give them a call and as long as they aren’t discontinuing it I’ll order one of those. If they have plans to discontinue it, I’ll go with an 8:1.

Is depowering the sweet box similar to what’s posted on the first page? Welding the servo and milling some groves in the piston to allow flow?

I’ve read both this thread and the one on pirate several times which makes me feel like I can do it but never tore down a steering box before.
 
Malburg114 said:
Cool sweet shows the 10:1 on their website. I’ll give them a call and as long as they aren’t discontinuing it I’ll order one of those. If they have plans to discontinue it, I’ll go with an 8:1.

Is depowering the sweet box similar to what’s posted on the first page? Welding the servo and milling some groves in the piston to allow flow?

I’ve read both this thread and the one on pirate several times which makes me feel like I can do it but never tore down a steering box before.
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Yes, same process inside. The sweet box is just easier to put back together because there’s no balls to mess with.
 
You could always adjust your ratio with a steering quickener too I would think.
 
Zg86 said:
You could always adjust your ratio with a steering quickener too I would think.
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I had plans to run a quickener but everyone says it causes more issues than it’s worth with this setup.
 
Cool to read through this thread again, been a while. I've been thinking about larger servos again, started wondering about the TRW and Sheppard steering boxes in big rigs. Watched some disassembly videos and they look to operate the same overall, but I think the servo may be larger to match the large piston bore. Maybe the kind of application the Woodward on the first page came from? If aftermarket servo prices have gone up that dramatically from where they were, would be cool to finally hunt down a good big OEM servo.

Malburg114 said:
I had plans to run a quickener but everyone says it causes more issues than it’s worth with this setup.
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The catch with a quickener, is it reduces the torque seen at the servo's torsion bar by whatever ratio quickener you run. So all of a sudden a regular torsion bar that takes a natural amount of force to open suddenly becomes far stiffer

Edit to add - Above I was only thinking about servos inside steering boxes with the quickeners before them. Considering you have an external servo, a quickener after the servo but before the box might actually work out alright? Hmm I can’t recall if that’s been explored
 
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Yeah, I figured if you got this far, there was probably a catch to the quickeners. Good to know.
 
Instead of a quicker, maybe use a longer pitman arm? in this de-powered box setup, you don’t accually need or even want to set it up like assist systems, where the box stops at the same time as the knuckle hits the axle stops. (Assuming 3 link) while the steering stops and box may hit at the same time on flat ground, it won’t when travelled bump to droop, and certainly not while articulated and turned. It’s going to stress the box or it mountings when bumpsteers happen while turned.

So the best is to setup a depowered box and leave room on each side of the pitman arm throw, that the box won’t max out. That in turn will decrease the effective ratio of the box. Since there is only 1 hydraulic actuator in the system, it will not be a problem anymore for broken sector shafts.
 
JR4X said:
Bumping this because I’m getting a lot of messages and realizing that people don’t know I migrated this over here.
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I couldn't find it on the old site....but found this thread here. Very helpful.
 
Sean said:
I couldn't find it on the old site....but found this thread here. Very helpful.
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It came up for me by searching “4500 steering”. I’m about to dive into it and possibly try to set it up on the front of my LJ when I rework the steering and suspension this winter. I’m leaning towards depowering the box but using its servo instead of the Sweet servo but I might just have to suck it up and go full kill on it.
 
Rnuovrcj5 said:
It came up for me by searching “4500 steering”. I’m about to dive into it and possibly try to set it up on the front of my LJ when I rework the steering and suspension this winter. I’m leaning towards depowering the box but using its servo instead of the Sweet Howe P#725 (.200 torsion) servo but I might just have to suck it up and go full kill on it.
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FIFY. 😉

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