DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration

[Provience]

Post #44-46 is the best options for all the cheap/trail whatever guys out there starting off for the homebrew.

yes, there are tradeoffs with it, but they aren't insurmountable for "the average joe". obviously as much porting as the case can handle is good and really getting to 5/16 or 3/8" would be ideal for the lines going to the cylinder. if the issue is the check valve in the box, then either leave it there or destroy it and add a check valve at the pump outlet to keep the large hits from coming back and destroying the pump.

as for the speed of it, obvious answer is to go to a smaller displacement hydraulic cylinder, but then again is a tradeoff. with a DE setup, there are tons of people out there who are destroying cylinder shafts and the larger cylinders give the larger shafts, so that is a "what can you get away with". i doubt somebody racing would want to run a smaller DE ram. this is also part of why i'm running single ended ram+tie rod, to take that loading off the cylinder shaft.

obviously the cylinder is making more than enough force if it is able to destroy steering link components before having issues with turning, so it isn't a question of "will a small cylinder make enough for to turn in the rocks"

I'd imagine that this setup is significantly less likely to have the shutter issues that the unbalanced howe/sweet servo would run in to. While the sweet servo isolates the steering and locks it out with steering wheel input, a stock steering box will not and will absolutely try to break your wrist if you hit something hard enough. Maybe that is an advantage to a "slow" steering system and a restriction the hydraulic restriction will buffer 'some' of the wrist break action

but also because of that, the cylinder gets fluid more like a regular valve in metered snips without trying to balance and react the way the external servo will, because it is reliant on the box gears to give it that control. So how fast can you turn the steering wheel normally? then it becomes a matter of matching that cylinder speed with your pump flow/line restrictions and if you want to change your steering ratio, it would be done just like always and be a change in the steering box.

oversized hydraulic assist, lacking the isolation from impacts and certainly not the same level of force and speed from the full race version, but beats having a detuned system that tries to shake itself apart and kill you

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Yep, that about sums it up. I run a #200 spring inours and that’s plenty sensitive.

Not directed to you but more so for those picking torsion bar rates. For the most feel and control you want to have the stiffest spring that you can turn and not get tired. The spring flexing is causing misalignment between the steering wheel and the tires and the hydraulics are working to correct the slop. At high speed when little force is needed to turn the tires, the stiff spring can transfer more force with less misalignment and keep from using as much hydraulics which can add too much force and sensitivity.
Obviously if you don't have the arm strength then tired arms are going to be a bigger issue. But thinking that you want to drive with one pinkie is not the best way to choose the torsion bar.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Some of the top end aftermarket pumps are built without any of the internal relief systems, with the expectation that you will add an external solution there. So you can do external flow and pressure relief with some industrial hydraulic components that already exist. That's not to big of an issue, but realistically just changes the same settings that you can do internally within the pump. The bonus with going external, is you can choose to send all bypassed fluid from either relief action through a filter and cooler before reentering the pump, instead of the pump regurgitating the bypassed fluid as done in factory form.

As I understand it, Internal or external flow/pressure reliefs wouldn't have an effect on the the potential chatter in the system, if it's happening at/near idle. At those lower pump RPMs, you're most likely going to be below your flow cutoff point, and shouldn't be hitting the pressure bypass at least until the chatter begins slamming back and force. But I believe the oscillation would still continue even if you varied your pressure relief.

I think running a regulated pump housing in an external flow path will increase cavitation to the point that the pump is not going to give you great performance or life. The pump housings that are intended to run external have flow paths that support the higher rpm flow. Regulated housings can run the higher rpms without as much cavitation because the flow is internally keeping it charged. Besides the pump housing and port size, the suction and return lines would all need to be upsized to sustain the higher flow in and out of the pump.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

I'd imagine that this setup is significantly less likely to have the shutter issues that the unbalanced howe/sweet servo would run in to. While the sweet servo isolates the steering and locks it out with steering wheel input, a stock steering box will not and will absolutely try to break your wrist if you hit something hard enough. Maybe that is an advantage to a "slow" steering system and a restriction the hydraulic restriction will buffer 'some' of the wrist break action

I think I disagree with this (but happy to be corrected). In principal, the Howe and Sweet valves should react to that scenario the same way a stock servo integrated into a steering box does. If your hands aren't on the wheel with any of the 3 scenarios, it will snap to full lock because your hands aren't there to resist against the torsion bar, which means the hydraulic valving doesn't open to help and it has no (minimal resistance). But then in all 3 scenarios, if your hands are holding the wheel straight, the impact will cause the torsion bar to twist and open the valving to provide assist in that moment. So if the stock box tries to snap the wheel out of your hands, it just didn't have enough force whether it be from just lack of hydraulic surface area to work on, or the hydraulics were slow to come into play. But if the system is overly restrictive, it should respond a little slower to impacts anyways due to that back pressure, hmm.

 

[Provience]

I think I disagree with this (but happy to be corrected). In principal, the Howe and Sweet valves should react to that scenario the same way a stock servo integrated into a steering box does. If your hands aren't on the wheel with any of the 3 scenarios, it will snap to full lock because your hands aren't there to resist against the torsion bar, which means the hydraulic valving doesn't open to help and it has no (minimal resistance). But then in all 3 scenarios, if your hands are holding the wheel straight, the impact will cause the torsion bar to twist and open the valving to provide assist in that moment. So if the stock box tries to snap the wheel out of your hands, it just didn't have enough force whether it be from just lack of hydraulic surface area to work on, or the hydraulics were slow to come into play. But if the system is overly restrictive, it should respond a little slower to impacts anyways due to that back pressure, hmm.

i have never played with this system, but the ported stock box option was the first thing that came to my head when i first read this thread so i was/am glad to see JR try it out.

1) we know that the sweet valve won't rip the wheel out of your hands if you are holding it per JR earlier in this thread. I have never once been able to resist getting the wheel ripped out of my hand with a stock steering setup even at fairly low speed impacts. hence why it gets let go of, and then obviously can do whatever it wants. to be honest, i can't remember what it took to get the wheel to whip on impact with assist. I drove a little bit more responsibly at that point in my life, but maybe it did give enough hydraulic resistance to the steering to keep the wheel force down.

2) as far as the shutter, there are several examples of people complaining about shutter when using an external servo. i can't think of a single instance of even reading about, much less seeing in person, somebody with "traditional" hydro assist having it induce a studder. hell, if anything it bandaides over a loose and sloppy steering system rather than make it worse because the ram will just go to the limit of whatever the sloppy side of the joint/connection is and firm it up.

just my thoughts on it, you've actually got a rig to play with and i'm just sitting here on the internet so your opinion is certainly more valid than mine for a while yet Now go port your box and upsize your lines and block off your steering box like you were talking about in your CBR thread

 

[JR4X]

Thanks for starting a new page guys.

So 6 years in review. In retrospect As per my usual, I handled the situation incorrectly. By being mostly concerned about making sure the right people got credit for making this happen, I pitted myself against people in an industry I needed to maintain a relationship with in the future. Always thinking I gotta be at war with someone because that’s the competitive nature in me.


While I’ve been wasting time not bringing a packaged solution to market PSC must have read my diary. A friend and 4500 competitor of ours who does have a good relationship with Tom and Jeff mentioned to them that he needed the internals of a Saginaw box to be mechanically faster than what he had. Tom tells him that they’ve been working on that. Duane Garretson has been running gear boxes and a sweet valve I built for him for a couple years now. His steering was everything he needed with one exception. It was to many turns lock to lock.

So he gets ahold of me this fall and wants to know if I can build him another gear box before finals with some experimental parts he’s going to get. Timeline is tight but I say yes. In a couple days I get home to find some boxes of PSC stuff on my porch. A gearbox I had manualized for him a couple years ago, and some pretty new parts from PSC.

 

[JR4X]

What we’re looking at here is an 8:1 ratio piston and screw for a forward facing pitman arm. Addressing Tom Allen’s concern of slack in the box by running two completely separate rows of recirculated balls. That’s right folks, if you flip that piston over, there’s a second through tube. This makes a 1 turn box with zero free space. It has a smooth contact from center to lock when all adjusted properly. Notice theirs no o-ring grooves on that piston??? I pulled the 16:1 guts from a functioning gear box, did my mods to the piston and installed it in the box. Sent it to Duane with 1 week before the national finals. His car is a Jimmys4X4 bellcrank car so it’s not a simple deal to swap the boxes out. There’s a lot of stuff that’s gotta be removed first to swap boxes so we didn’t have time for failure.

He puts the new box in and..... it works perfectly right out of the gate. 1/2 turn of the wheel each way from center lock to lock. No chatter, no problems. It steers so quickly he’s having a re-learning curve for how not to oversteer because he’s used to having to palm the wheel to make turns, now with a 10 and 2 hold he never has to let go of the wheel. He podium’d the finals and podium’d National points as well. I dropped the car off at Jimmys4X4 so that could swap out the JRAT 60 front for a spidertrax hi-10 front axle.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Those are some fancy PSC parts. Even polished out. Why did it take 6 years for these to show up?
I wonder what the business aspects of this type of steering is. It seems like both PSC and Howe have offered something or parts but don't advertise it or have given up on it at times. I can only guess that its such a specific market that they do not have the sales to justify fully supporting it. Trophy truck part sales keep Howe going and rock crawler and jeep part sales keep PSC going. I don't see PSC supporting another manufactures servos just for one product were as Howe uses them for all the racks. I don't see Howe getting into the boxes at the same level as PSC either. Although I would assume that with the amount of trophy trucks that run boxes that Howe would be more open to this type of setup vs just a ported assist setup.
Forgot to mention the legal aspect of the modifications specifically to the steering column and all the stupid people out there crashing into buses and ruining it for the rest of us. A ported box and assist has been proven for years and still works even if the ram falls off if it wasn't installed properly.

 

[Provience]

Forgot to mention the legal aspect of the modifications specifically to the steering column and all the stupid people out there crashing into buses and ruining it for the rest of us.

as for this, it isn't any more illegal than modifying an exhaust pipe out of the way or welding to and cutting a frame. everything aftermarket is always offroad/race only

 

[Fwjeep]

Post #44-46 is the best options for all the cheap guys

I'd imagine that this setup is significantly less likely to have the shutter issues that the unbalanced howe/sweet servo would run in to. While the sweet servo isolates the steering and locks it out with steering wheel input, a stock steering box will not and will absolutely try to break your wrist if you hit something hard enough. Maybe that is an advantage to a "slow" steering system and a restriction the hydraulic restriction will buffer 'some' of the wrist break action:

Not always. I was working on one car, a bellcrank setup. It had a heavily ported steering box and servo, just like the one jr4x posted photos of earlier. I could make it a depowered box by pulling off the end cap, removing the piston nut, and threading in a set screw into the lower vein hole. This would free flow the piston and isolate the two ports from each other.
with it driving both the box piston, and a ram (2.5x1.5x9) it worked perfectly. Paired with a psc1400 tc pump, 6” pulley, it could go lock to lock in 2 seconds, 3.5 turns, (~45 cu in displacement) and idled the motor around 900 rpm. When letting off the throttle, going into a corner, at race speed. It was still limited by flow. However, after every race, the box was toast. From stretching some part of the case(loose sector shaft to piston) breaking teeth, or destroying the servo in the box.

with it setup to not send pressurized fluid to the box piston. The steering was much faster. Still 3.5 turns obviously, but no lag. Lock to lock as fast as you could move you hands. Downside- it chattered the wheels. Not always. Was real bad when paired with a Howe TT pump. Switched out to a 4.5 gpm pump (5.5 inch pulley) and it was better. Custom made 7 inch pulley, not much change. settled on 6” pulley. Theory here was too much flow, causes the de cylinder to out run the linkages.
At this time, it would turn left to right great, and from right to about 2’0clock, great, chatter from 2 till 12, then fine till left lock. Changed torsion rods. From .185 to .205 to .235 , all without much change, .250 it was getting near no powersteering at all. Tried sweet/psc/Howe servos paired with the magic quick ratio manual box psc sold. No serious changes where had. Time for diving deep into the problem after the race season was up.
hydrodynamic this is when we tried a steering rack setup. First placed down, along side the trans, under driver, pushing a linkage to bell crank on the axle. This reduced the shaking in the spot it did by 1/2. This convinced me at the point of two things. It wasn’t steering box related. It was linkage related.
reducing the weight of the dynamic parts between the servo and the knuckle was key to solving this. and second, you could use nearly anything mechanical, as long as it could transfer the 28inlb that it takes to fully open the servo.
next step was a rack mounted to the axle,servo in the dash, 90degree box beside lower links,shaft to the rack, parallel to the hydro ram. No need for it to be one in the same unit. As the chassis had 3 degrees of roll steer in the links, flexing it out, we could have the shaft going to the rack input 3.5 degrees opposite steering input. Based again off 3.5 turns. Solved the steering chatter issues. But. 3.5 turns lock to lock, yuck. Reviewing the most successful setups that used this, they mostly use just a draglink to the knuckle from the box(three links fronts)
from there, it was a simple change to just chassis mount a rack, and use a cable. Downside, if the pump goes out, your going to have to stop and fix it, rather then push through to the end of the race.

Conjecture time. Ever compare a hydro steering valve with a Saginaw servo? The difference in operation is it uses a small displacement motor, to open the valve, instead of a steering linkage. But what if you could use both?
I think there is possibility, you could combine hydro valve, attached directly to a rack, and use a cable to the ram clevis (linear movement) and have ‘feel’, non-drifting wheel, and redundancy. if a cable breaks, it is just full hydro.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

This thread just gets better and better. JR4X, that dual recirculating ball bearing setup is crazy, had no idea that could be a thing. All of this discussion on chatter and the potential causes has been great. Fwjeep, that last response is a fantastic hands on analysis of many different setups with the car as a constant, literally couldn't ask for more.

So as I understand it so far - essentially nobody is reporting chatter while their steering box is powered (mine feels great as well)? But as people de power the steering box and get all of the hydraulic force from the ram, chatter can rear it's ugly head. FW, you mention the mass (and in turn, momentum) of the components in the steering system. Something else I'm curious about is the increased amount of backlash and/or flex between the servo itself, and the device providing the assist (hit on by JR4X earlier). Where with a powered box, the only lash between the servo and the first hydraulic device is any small amount from the recirculating ball bearings. On a de powered box you have the slack from those ball bearings, plus the backlash between the gears, then any looseness or flex in the pitman arm, any slack in drag link joints or flex in the tubing if it has bends etc. Any slack between the servo and it's assisting counterpoint could allow momentum and some interesting oscillations.

I'm definitely still learning, but interesting to note that this seems like a +1 for powered boxes. That may impact my decision making as I choose to speed up my system a little bit at idle

 

[JR4X]

I'm definitely still learning, but interesting to note that this seems like a +1 for powered boxes. That may impact my decision making as I choose to speed up my system a little bit at idle

I need to build some more boxes. I actually have all the guts from a sweet servo I want to try to install in a modified box. I mentioned my arrogance in the beginning causing myself strife now. I’ve painted myself into a corner where PSC (my favorite parts supplier) doesn’t want to work with me on parts. I guess I can’t blame them. That crazy piston and screw cost $1400 dollars... alone, and they are not for sale to me currently.

 

[Fwjeep]

I need to build some more boxes. I actually have all the guts from a sweet servo I want to try to install in a modified box.

there is only 1 problem left I can see with using the servo in the box. There is no way to really seal the right turn, worm side of the servo, from the piston. I know you welded closed the hole before, but fluid still goes through the thrust bearing. With the piston cut, it should not matter as much, but, the unequal surface of the piston(screw or rod) when pressurized, will apply force to the servo. At 1400 psi it’s close to 700lbs of force, to jam the servo in its bore. To much preload on the servo stops the servo from opening the valve ports all the way, or makes it stick off-Center. It may not be such as a big deal, but it’s why I started looking at the Delphi boxes.

the check valve on the box inlet is the only real difference between the external and internal arrangements. As such in V1 you don’t use it, in your V2 you shouldn’t either. After talking with Tom Allen, and Jeff, they both suggested setting up a external pressure relief to take care of possible over pressurized (due to hits on the tires) pump instead. If the pump was set to 1600psi, set the external to 1650psi

 

[JR4X]

there is only 1 problem left I can see with using the servo in the box. There is no way to really seal the right turn, worm side of the servo, from the piston. I know you welded closed the hole before, but fluid still goes through the thrust bearing. With the piston cut, it should not matter as much, but, the unequal surface of the piston(screw or rod) when pressurized, will apply force to the servo. At 1400 psi it’s close to 700lbs of force, to jam the servo in its bore. To much preload on the servo stops the servo from opening the valve ports all the way, or makes it stick off-Center. It may not be such as a big deal, but it’s why I started looking at the Delphi boxes.

It didn’t seem to be a problem in the one I built and raced in 2017. I crashed the car in the second race, did a nose plant and broke a bunch of stuff destroying the chassis as well. So while I had the car in pieces I took the box apart to check it out. It was a junk box with an untrue bore to start with. I ended up putting the useable parts back in a good ram assist box and sold it. It’s running around in a Jeep Comanche now.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the Delphi boxes only come in a rear facing pitman arm and inside the frame rail?

 

[Fwjeep]

Jk boxes are forward facing,
wj boxes are rearward facing,

there is also the right hand drive jk box, which is pretty close to a scout box. With a faster ratio.

psc is making thier jk boxes with a different servo though, I suspect due to not being able to get enough flow through the Delphi servo for both the box and the larger ram assist cylinders. With disabled box piston, it may be ok.

I have learned the steering company don’t due many things that aren’t aviable factory somewhere. The bigger pistons for the jk come from 2014 and later ram trucks. The six bolt housing also from later dodges. The 45 mm sector shaft, late model dodges!

psc is certainly getting some custom pieces straight from the factory that makes these boxes, like castings. And now they opened a big machine shop of thier own this year, I expect to see more new parts and ideas

 

[Provience]

I'm definitely still learning, but interesting to note that this seems like a +1 for powered boxes. That may impact my decision making as I choose to speed up my system a little bit at idle

as for speed at idle, we know we are constantly fighting a flow vs volume battle. if using the powered box, with it's small ports and large case volume, what are your thoughts on reducing the case volume of the box rather than depowering it and having it free float?

you said you were at 25.12 cu in for ram and 17.1 cu in for box displacement for 42.22 cu in total. assuming you can port the stock box/servo out to a 0.3"+ size to feed the ram without restriction, then physically reducing the box volume or severely restricting the supply of fluid send to powering the box might be better than trying to totally block the box and float the piston while speeding up the ram

 

[AgitatedPancake]

There are also RHD WJs, so RHD/LHD WJs, then RHD/LHD JKs, you should essentially have every box mounting variation you could want. Inside or outside, forward or rear swing.

as for speed at idle, we know we are constantly fighting a flow vs volume battle. if using the powered box, with it's small ports and large case volume, what are your thoughts on reducing the case volume of the box rather than depowering it and having it free float?

you said you were at 25.12 cu in for ram and 17.1 cu in for box displacement for 42.22 cu in total. assuming you can port the stock box/servo out to a 0.3"+ size to feed the ram without restriction, then physically reducing the box volume or severely restricting the supply of fluid send to powering the box might be better than trying to totally block the box and float the piston while speeding up the ram

The only way I could decrease the volume used by the steering box turning lock to lock would be shrinking the piston diameter and box bore. Or something a bit more extreme I was thinking about last night (but comes with it's own set of large challenges), only using part of the boxes full throw. But that would be more for changing the lock to lock turn count. Example (with random numbers): My box currently turns 90* with 3.25 turns lock to lock. If I wanted to speed it up to half the turns lock to lock (1.625 turns), I could just move the knuckle side of the drag link much closer to the ball joint center. to acheive the same max turn angle, but use much less volume out of the box. The piston wouldn't hit a hard bottom in the box which may not be perfect, but if the box is de powered I think that would be a non issue. Most setups already stop the steering with the ram/steering stops on the axle so the piston bottoming out doesn't always happen anyways.

One configuration that i'm wondering if anyone has tried yet, has anyone run a powered box and ram with an external servo? I've put a bit of thought into it, and it has me intrigued. In my current configuration, I just have a standard Delphi 600 box drilled and tapped for hydro assist, with the 2.5" x 1.5" x 8" ram. I would pull the box apart and weld the torsion bar solid similar in principal to configurations laid out by JR4X earlier in this thread. Then cap the box inlet and outlet as they will just be recirculating at that point as it does in factory form with no steering input. I put an aftermarket servo upstream of the box as described here, but then replace my currernt hydro assist fittings on the steering box with tee fittings. L and R pressure outs from the servo go into one side of those tees, and the other side of the tee goes to the ram. So the box is fully powered by the external servo just as the ram is, but it's not facing ANY of the restrictions of the stock servo, or tiny ports in the steering box. I would still require the same large amount of fluid (which also means having tons of force), but would have much less backpressure it may be able to meet those demands easier. And hopefully no chatter.

 

[Fwjeep]

There are also RHD WJs, so RHD/LHD WJs, then RHD/LHD JKs, you should essentially have every box mounting variation you could want. Inside or outside, forward or rear swing.



The only way I could decrease the volume used by the steering box turning lock to lock would be shrinking the piston diameter and box bore. Or something a bit more extreme I was thinking about last night (but comes with it's own set of large challenges), only using part of the boxes full throw. But that would be more for changing the lock to lock turn count. Example (with random numbers): My box currently turns 90* with 3.25 turns lock to lock. If I wanted to speed it up to half the turns lock to lock (1.625 turns), I could just move the knuckle side of the drag link much closer to the ball joint center. to acheive the same max turn angle, but use much less volume out of the box. The piston wouldn't hit a hard bottom in the box which may not be perfect, but if the box is de powered I think that would be a non issue. Most setups already stop the steering with the ram/steering stops on the axle so the piston bottoming out doesn't always happen anyways.

One configuration that i'm wondering if anyone has tried yet, has anyone run a powered box and ram with an external servo? I've put a bit of thought into it, and it has me intrigued. In my current configuration, I just have a standard Delphi 600 box drilled and tapped for hydro assist, with the 2.5" x 1.5" x 8" ram. I would pull the box apart and weld the torsion bar solid similar in principal to configurations laid out by JR4X earlier in this thread. Then cap the box inlet and outlet as they will just be recirculating at that point as it does in factory form with no steering input. I put an aftermarket servo upstream of the box as described here, but then replace my currernt hydro assist fittings on the steering box with tee fittings. L and R pressure outs from the servo go into one side of those tees, and the other side of the tee goes to the ram. So the box is fully powered by the external servo just as the ram is, but it's not facing ANY of the restrictions of the stock servo, or tiny ports in the steering box. I would still require the same large amount of fluid (which also means having tons of force), but would have much less backpressure it may be able to meet those demands easier. And hopefully no chatter.

Jesse Haines is running this on his 4600 Roxor. Factory servo bypassed, still powering the box piston.
just welding the servo out to not twist, will not lock it out. At rest, the servo is an open Center valve, and fluid can freely pass between inlet-left-right-return. You will not be able to build pressure. You will have to plug the veins/ports between your fittings suppling the piston and the origanal servo

 

[michael.gonzalez]

Bookmarked.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Jesse Haines is running this on his 4600 Roxor. Factory servo bypassed, still powering the box piston.
just welding the servo out to not twist, will not lock it out. At rest, the servo is an open Center valve, and fluid can freely pass between inlet-left-right-return. You will not be able to build pressure. You will have to plug the veins/ports between your fittings suppling the piston and the origanal servo

Ahhh perfect, definitely an oversight on my part. At least they are easy to block on this box, so easy problem to solve. Good note on Jesse's roxor! And I assume by his performance that that system is working pretty well

 

[Fwjeep]

Ahhh perfect, definitely an oversight on my part. At least they are easy to block on this box, so easy problem to solve. Good note on Jesse's roxor! And I assume by his performance that that system is working pretty well

I think he has only run one race (2020 nationals ) with it so far.

 

[JR4X]

I think he has only run one race (2020 nationals ) with it so far.

Not nationals, he raced Moab with it. Ran into an issue. The new pump makes more pressure than factory, and that increased pressure was enough to blow the seal out of the input cap. We looked at different ways to get it by for the race. Locktited the seal into the case and used washers as spacers to have the borgeson joint help hold the seal from coming out. It was still leaking but allowed him to race. A broken leaf spring took him out of the race though.

 

[Fwjeep]

Not nationals, he raced Moab with it. .

My mistake.
interesting. The input seal should be backed by only case/return pressure. Only needs 15-25 psi to blow out. I’ve of course never seen the inside of a roxor box though.

 

[JR4X]

My mistake.
interesting. The input seal should be backed by only case/return pressure. Only needs 15-25 psi to blow out. I’ve of course never seen the inside of a roxor box though.

They’re weird. Tiny little gearboxes. Poorly cast. Tiny fluid ports. Unlike a Saginaw box they don’t have an open end cap, all the internals go in through the input shaft hole. Whatever is wrong, at full lock one way or another it fully pressurizes the input shaft. Which it’s obvious not built for because that seal doesn’t press in from the inside and back up against a machined surface to stop it from blowing out, nor does it have a snap ring to keep it from blowing out. It presses in from the outside line it’s not actually meant to hold case pressure.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

They’re weird. Tiny little gearboxes. Poorly cast. Tiny fluid ports. Unlike a Saginaw box they don’t have an open end cap, all the internals go in through the input shaft hole. Whatever is wrong, at full lock one way or another it fully pressurizes the input shaft. Which it’s obvious not built for because that seal doesn’t press in from the inside and back up against a machined surface to stop it from blowing out, nor does it have a snap ring to keep it from blowing out. It presses in from the outside line it’s not actually meant to hold case pressure.

Without seeing one, I would guess that it is designed to have internal leakage and case drain to the reservoir. Too much pressure = too much internal leakage and return flow was increased = return pressure increase and pop went the seal.

 

[gbfab]

Out of curiosity, what would happen if u use both the gear box servo and a separate servo in line, both too actuate the steering box and ram? Wouldn't that help with the volume problems and decrease the need for some of the pressure?

 

['84 Bronco II]

Out of curiosity, what would happen if u use both the gear box servo and a separate servo in line, both too actuate the steering box and ram? Wouldn't that help with the volume problems and decrease the need for some of the pressure?

Why have two servos if one is enough? Seems like two servos would almost guarantee chatter issues.

Pressure and volume are two different things. Yes, increased pressure will also in crease the flow rate to a degree, but the better way of thinking about it is pressure controls steering force, and the flow rate controls speed.

 

[Malburg114]

So I’m trying to build a setup like this for my new build. I have a line on an old psc kit that comes with the Howe modified sweet servo and the manual box but the guy I’m getting it from could never get the chatter to stop. He think it may be an issue wirh his ram but trying to see what other boxes people have had sucess with. I wanted to use a tj/lj box but seems the ratio seems to high at 14:1. I read jr4x 4600 bronco build and saw he used a 10:1 box from sweet. Is there a different box people are using? I have no issue depowering a box just want something easy to get to build a spare.

What diameter ram are people having good luck with? 2.5 or 2.75 or does it not matter?

 

[JR4X]

So I’m trying to build a setup like this for my new build. I have a line on an old psc kit that comes with the Howe modified sweet servo and the manual box but the guy I’m getting it from could never get the chatter to stop. He think it may be an issue wirh his ram but trying to see what other boxes people have had sucess with. I wanted to use a tj/lj box but seems the ratio seems to high at 14:1. I read jr4x 4600 bronco build and saw he used a 10:1 box from sweet. Is there a different box people are using? I have no issue depowering a box just want something easy to get to build a spare.

What diameter ram are people having good luck with? 2.5 or 2.75 or does it not matter?

Who did you get the old stuff from? I knew almost everyone that bought one. The servo that PSC sold in that kit was 1/2 the problem with all the kit issues I tried to help with and the box was the other half. Not the ram.

I’ve been recommending XJ steering boxes if you are specifically interested in junkyard boxes. XJ’s are usually 12:1. All the successful setups I’ve built or helped get built have 2 1/2” rams.

If you can use a JK box, Justin Hall has a vetted functioning setup for sale off his 4500 car. He’ll sell the JK box separate, Kevin Rants built that box.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Who did you get the old stuff from? I knew almost everyone that bought one. The servo that PSC sold in that kit was 1/2 the problem with all the kit issues I tried to help with and the box was the other half. Not the ram.

I’ve been recommending XJ steering boxes if you are specifically interested in junkyard boxes. XJ’s are usually 12:1. All the successful setups I’ve built or helped get built have 2 1/2” rams.

If you can use a JK box, Justin Hall has a vetted functioning setup for sale off his 4500 car. He’ll sell the JK box separate, Kevin Rants built that box.

Was this the same kit you tried helping a guy with on the old site? I remember reading about that one and remember you trying like hell to get him sorted out even though he was using a different parts recipe than what you recommend he should be running. Sounds like it never got fixed and that he passed his troubles onto someone else.