Best steering box for custom builds?

[Sean]

Anyone happen to know the steering ratio on the 05+ Superduty forward swing boxes? Mine's (2008) not mounted to a vehicle (got it from the bone yard) so I can't divide degrees of turn on the steering wheel vs. how many degrees the knuckle turns in one 360° revolution of the wheel.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Gearbox Ratio Feel Explained - Lee Power Steering

The ratio of your power steering gearbox will determine the reaction speed to your steering input. The steering valve is what gives you the feel of the road.

leepowersteering.com

I don't think it's a ratio thing, because they're only slow with assist cylinders.

 

[Rangerrod]

I put a toyota IFS box on suburban and it drove and wheeled great on 42s. We used it because it sat outside the frame and allowed my drag link and panhard to be the same length. He had a psc p-pump and his ram was 1.75x8

More pictures:

https://www.motortrend.com/features/1708-1990-chevy-suburban-hardcore-wheeling-for-the-whole-family/

Interesting

So maybe the slow assist set ups I drove had other issues? Just seems like the ifs box was always the common denominator.

How would you even determine if a say jk box would be quicker than an IFS box with all other parts equal?

My experience too was Toyota box 1.75x8” ram. I dropped down to 1.5” ram and it’s faster for sure p series pump but debating going with cbr in the future.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

My experience too was Toyota box 1.75x8” ram. I dropped down to 1.5” ram and it’s faster for sure p series pump but debating going with cbr in the future.

I don't know if the pump is the restriction though, just think the tiny ports in the box are.

 

[fl0w3n]

I don't know if the pump is the restriction though, just think the tiny ports in the box are.

Open Port Valves When Adding RAM Assist Fittings To Steering Gearbox

When we add ram assist ports to a steering gearbox, we also open port the input valve. This ensures that the gearbox will perform properly & last longer.

leepowersteering.com

 

[TrailTamer]

YotaAtieToo have you read JR4X thread? I truly think his tech in this thread is very underappreciated. I think with his approach will make it not matter at all on how 'strong' the steering box will be. Essentially use what you find fit best and do the mod to run DE ram.

DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration

Going to try to resurrect some tech as it’s relevance has come up again. Lots has changed since I started doing this 7 years ago. I’ve stopped trying to help people build boxes through text and email. My brother and I can build boxes all day and not have problems. Most everyone I’ve tried to...

irate4x4.com

 

[wvracer821]

Planning to run a forward swing '07-10 SD box on my tow vehicle build....we'll see how it goes but being that it's a tow rig that sees pretty mild trail duty, it may not be a good test case. I'm now debating if I should do a SE assist or DE. I'm still leaning SE for what seems to be simplicity.

Being a tow rig I think you should try it without assist first. I was impressed how easy it turned my 40s

 

[YotaAtieToo]

YotaAtieToo have you read JR4X thread? I truly think his tech in this thread is very underappreciated. I think with his approach will make it not matter at all on how 'strong' the steering box will be. Essentially use what you find fit best and do the mod to run DE ram.

DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration

Going to try to resurrect some tech as it’s relevance has come up again. Lots has changed since I started doing this 7 years ago. I’ve stopped trying to help people build boxes through text and email. My brother and I can build boxes all day and not have problems. Most everyone I’ve tried to...

irate4x4.com

I can't say I've kept up on every post. Last I read, a properly set up servo/manual box wasn't exactly easy or cheap.

I think a good assist will be just fine.

 

[Sean]

Being a tow rig I think you should try it without assist first. I was impressed how easy it turned my 40s

And that's kinda how I'm leaning. I know with 40's on the trail, I'll probably want/need assist....but for most stuff it'll probably be fine without. I'm kind of thinking of porting the box....and waiting on the assist cylinder, that way it's fairly easy to add later if needed.

 

[WiscoF100]

Sean all Ford trucks to 97 were 18:1 (4-1/8 turns) but I can’t confirm if “Superduty” had a different ratio. I would assume they are 18:1 also

 

[Sean]

Sean all Ford trucks to 97 were 18:1 (4-1/8 turns) but I can’t confirm if “Superduty” had a different ratio. I would assume they are 18:1 also

Thanks. All these threads have me rethinking the whole Ford SD box thing. Maybe I should be looking at a forward swing Howe Saginaw or Scout instead since price wise, I'm probably in the ball park anyway and I could upgrade much more easily later.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Thanks. All these threads have me rethinking the whole Ford SD box thing. Maybe I should be looking at a forward swing Saginaw Sweet or Howe instead since price wise, I'm probably in the ball park anyway and I could upgrade much more easily later.

You could try and message Dave Chappelle about how he liked his steering on his 08 F350 on 40s.

 

[Thornbird1]

I run a 78-79 ford bronco box. Tapped for hydro assist and converted to ring swing. Box is big and heavy but works well for me. I made my own pitman arm. I never have overheating issues running a small cooler. I did break the sector shaft once but it was driver error and stops not being set quite right.

 

[fl0w3n]

Talking about lock to lock ratios reminded me of this sale post I keep seeing from Justin Hall where he specifies that JK 4 door has a 3.5 turn lock to lock

 

[Sean]

EDIT JFYI....the Sweet box is ONLY rear swing. To make it forward swing requires an outside the frame box. So two boxes are required to make a forward swing box. ****

Emailed Sweet Mfg asking about their 700 Series Sportsman boxes (the one JR4X recommended in the Double Ended Ram Hydro Assist thread) trying to determine if it was a forward swing box and to also find out if they make outside the frame rail boxes (looking at Saginaw box options).

The response left me a bit confused. My admittedly limited understanding is that certain boxes can be switched internally to be forward or rearward swing.

Here's the response from Sweet:

"With a steering box the swing direction is just a matter of the direction you mount the pitman arm."

That can't be right though since (for example) if you started with the wheels straight and steering wheel in the middle of its travel and pitman arm facing forward, turning the steering wheel counterclockwise (left) would move a forward swing, front facing pitman arm and sector shaft counterclockwise (when viewed from above the box/from the driver seat) pulling the passenger side knuckle and forcing the tires to turn to the left.

By contrast, if you had the same starting conditions as above but now just place the pitman arm on the sector shaft facing rearward, when you turn the wheel to the left (counterclockwise), the sector shaft is still going to turn CCW as well...which would push the passenger knuckle, forcing the tires to the right.

Am I wrong about this?

JFYI....Sweet does make outside the frame rail boxes, but there may be lead time depending on whether or not they have the housings in stock. Here's their reply on that question:

"All of our off the shelf boxes are to be mounted inside the frame. We should be able to produce an outside the frame box provided we have that type of housing on hand (I would need to check on this to confirm). If you would like one of these in a 6:1 or 8:1 and would like it to be plated like our other boxes there would be a lead time of 2-3 weeks. Or if you would like the box raw or simply painted black it could be assembled within a few days."

 

[JR4X]

If you look on PSC’s website they don’t have that box listed anymore. Not for a thousand bucks but I’d like to get my hands on one of those to investigate the servo to box relationship and see what kind of flow potential the servo has

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Your hunch is correct, the output needs to spin the opposite direction for forward swing vs rear swing. That is accomplished by reversing the spiral ramp direction on the worm shaft and piston. Iirc you can swap this assembly to make a forward swing into a rear swing and vice versa, but their statement about it just working is incorrect.

There’s also the silly but potentially handy idea of just adding a steering reverser to a rear swing box, and just putting the pitman arm on forward facing without any other mods. But that hasn’t been explored as much

Make ANY steering box a forward swing

If you look on PSC’s website they don’t have that box listed anymore. Not for a thousand bucks but I’d like to get my hands on one of those to investigate the servo to box relationship and see what kind of flow potential the servo has

Ya know what, I’ve still got the components from that WJ box teardown thread, if you want any more precise servo measurements from that application just for future reference I’d be happy to add some more details, just let me know!

 

[Sean]

Your hunch is correct, the output needs to spin the opposite direction for forward swing vs rear swing. That is accomplished by reversing the spiral ramp direction on the worm shaft and piston. Iirc you can swap this assembly to make a forward swing into a rear swing and vice versa, but their statement about it just working is incorrect.

There’s also the silly but potentially handy idea of just adding a steering reverser to a rear swing box, and just putting the pitman arm on forward facing without any other mods. But that hasn’t been explored as much

Make ANY steering box a forward swing

Ya know what, I’ve still got the components from that WJ box teardown thread, if you want any more precise servo measurements from that application just for future reference I’d be happy to add some more details, just let me know!

My thought process here is....this is the "best steering box for custom builds" thread. I've got two projects that I'd potentially put boxes on. The first box I was going to use for the tow rig is a '08 SuperDuty box (mostly b/c it's beefy and is forward swing mounted inside the frame rail just like the Dodge box on the truck now). If I get a new SD box from PSC ported for hydro assist...it's $1K.

The DE Ram Hydro Assist Thread got me thinking that maybe a better choice would be the Saginaw box JR4X recommended b/c of the potential to upgrade and modify it (as well as get all sorts of internal custom parts since both Sweet and Howe seem to prefer these boxes). Howe lists outside the frame rail options that look like what his dad's car runs....Series 800 with an 8:1 ratio and that would be ideal on one of my builds so I could put the longest draglink/pitman arm combo on the car.....though I don't know if the same sort of DE assist setup with a separate Howe/Sweet servo would be applicable to the Series 800 box (though I can't see why it wouldn't be).

At this point, I'm just spitballing.... I was planning to pick up that PSC Ford SD box when it goes on sale for Black Friday/CyberMonday....but now I think I'll wait and do some more research before committing to it over the Sagniaw 700/800 series.

 

[SMI17]

I'm kind of in the same spot. I need a forward swing outside of frame rail box that is 4ish turns lock to lock that I can run de ram to push 47s on the trail and highway.

I just don't know what to pick as I keep hearing this or that and I'm too poor to do it cheaply wrong. I'd rather spend more once then spend even more multiple times

 

[JR4X]

I'm kind of in the same spot. I need a forward swing outside of frame rail box that is 4ish turns lock to lock that I can run de ram to push 47s on the trail and highway.

I just don't know what to pick as I keep hearing this or that and I'm too poor to do it cheaply wrong. I'd rather spend more once then spend even more multiple times

So let’s talk through your options. What are you more afraid of. A slightly harder to source box, or a hybridized box.

An international Scout II is my personal favorite steering box. Outside the frame, forward swing. Long sector shaft so the whole power head is above the frame for the best shaft angle from the steering column past the engine to the box. Shares all the common components of the inside the frame Saginaw box. Kinda hard to find

RHD JK box. Newer, easier to come by than a scout box. 4 turn is one of the only two ratio options so it doesn’t matter that it’s not Saginaw compatible.

GM /Dodge 4x4 side swing box. Those are the push pull steering type but it’s still just an 800 series box that’s basically the mirror image of the inside the frame steering box. Not impossible to find but you’re going to need to build it with parts from a second box to get the regular splined sector shaft and to make it forward swing. Now you’re back to super common parts but need two boxes to make one. 4 turn going to be the standard.

Either way, if you’re doing 4 turn, don’t bother with the remote servo. Just drill the assist ports in the box bigger and run your DE ram off the servo from the box is my recommendation now that I know a cheap sweet servo is just a Saginaw size servo.

Keep in mind. A LOT of confusion between trail guys and ALL of my stuff comes from the difference in speed. I still want to see you guys replace your 1200 psi P pumps with 1600 psi TC pumps. At 4 turns you’ll have just as much ram output force as my race setups but cheaper because you don’t need a remote mount servo or higher dollar crazy GPM pump. My dads 4500 car is 1 turn L2L. My 4600 car is 1 1/2 turn L2L.

 

[Sean]

So let’s talk through your options. What are you more afraid of. A slightly harder to source box, or a hybridized box.

An international Scout II is my personal favorite steering box. Outside the frame, forward swing. Long sector shaft so the whole power head is above the frame for the best shaft angle from the steering column past the engine to the box. Shares all the common components of the inside the frame Saginaw box. Kinda hard to find

RHD JK box. Newer, easier to come by than a scout box. 4 turn is one of the only two ratio options so it doesn’t matter that it’s not Saginaw compatible.

GM /Dodge 4x4 side swing box. Those are the push pull steering type but it’s still just an 800 series box that’s basically the mirror image of the inside the frame steering box. Not impossible to find but you’re going to need to build it with parts from a second box to get the regular splined sector shaft and to make it forward swing. Now you’re back to super common parts but need two boxes to make one. 4 turn going to be the standard.

Either way, if you’re doing 4 turn, don’t bother with the remote servo. Just drill the assist ports in the box bigger and run your DE ram off the servo from the box is my recommendation now that I know a cheap sweet servo is just a Saginaw size servo.

Keep in mind. A LOT of confusion between trail guys and ALL of my stuff comes from the difference in speed. I still want to see you guys replace your 1200 psi P pumps with 1600 psi TC pumps. At 4 turns you’ll have just as much ram output force as my race setups but cheaper because you don’t need a remote mount servo or higher dollar crazy GPM pump. My dads 4500 car is 1 turn L2L. My 4600 car is 1 1/2 turn L2L.

I don't mind spending the money on the remote Howe servo (200# torsion) and the Howe or Sweet 800 series box to get outside the frame rail and common parts and then modify the internals of the box to make it all work (assuming Howe/Sweet will make an outside frame box into forward swing EDIT Sweet does not make their box in forward swing**). I don't have access to a mill, so the 6 grooves would have to be farmed out.

I'm planning the Pro Series TC from Radial Dynamics but it's 1750 PSI and 6 gpm (though I believe RD can dial that back a bit). The Trail series is 4GPM and 1500 PSI...a bit lower than what you said is needed. Definitely getting RD's Gen II 3.5" reservoir and 10 PSI res breather valve.

I have a brand new (rebuilt?) PSC ported Scout II box I bought more than a decade ago...so maybe that's an option, but long term...I question how hard it will be to find parts (though you're saying it takes common Saginaw guts, so maybe that's the winner).

I was shooting for something more like 1.5-3.5 turns....but am not that particular on it.

The cylinder would likely be a PSC (I like the 4 clamp body)...SC2212; 2.5x8x1.5....though I do wonder how one lands on 8" travel being enough with 05+ SD60 knuckles seemingly allowing so much steering angle. Is 8" of travel enough?

 

[SMI17]

That's perfect. I have line on a handful of the old push pulls and as many regular boxes i want. The Scout stuff is a bit more money but an option too.

I am not locked into any pump so whatever will work best is what I will do. I will "race" tufftruck type stuff for fun. The 3.5/4 t2t is what I'm comfortable with an know. Sure less might be better on the trails or occasionally racing but this thing will see more street miles than not. That is why it's getting a box and DE ram.

What about ram size?


I greatly appreciate everything you have offered to us!

 

[JR4X]

That's perfect. I have line on a handful of the old push pulls and as many regular boxes i want. The Scout stuff is a bit more money but an option too.

I am not locked into any pump so whatever will work best is what I will do. I will "race" tufftruck type stuff for fun. The 3.5/4 t2t is what I'm comfortable with an know. Sure less might be better on the trails or occasionally racing but this thing will see more street miles than not. That is why it's getting a box and DE ram.

What about ram size?


I greatly appreciate everything you have offered to us!

You said 47’s. I wouldn’t consider anything less than a 2 1/2 DE and probably 3” is the better more realistic option.

 

[JR4X]

I don't mind spending the money on the remote Howe servo and the Howe or Sweet 800 series box to get outside the frame rail and common parts and then modify the internals of the box to make it all work (assuming Howe/Sweet will make an outside frame box into forward swing). I don't have access to a mill, so the 6 grooves would have to be farmed out.

I'm planning the Pro Series TC from Radial Dynamics but it's 1750 PSI and 6 gpm (though I believe RD can dial that back a bit). The Trail series is 4GPM and 1500 PSI...a bit lower than what you said is needed. Definitely getting RD's Gen II 3.5" reservoir and 10 PSI res breather valve.

I have a brand new (rebuilt?) PSC ported Scout II box I bought more than a decade ago...so maybe that's an option, but long term...I question how hard it will be to find parts (though you're saying it takes common Saginaw guts, so maybe that's the winner).

I was shooting for something more like 1.5-3.5 turns....but am not that particular on it.

The cylinder would likely be a PSC (I like the 4 clamp body)...SC2212; 2.5x8x1.5....though I do wonder how one lands on 8" travel being enough with 05+ SD60 knuckles seemingly allowing so much steering angle. Is 8" of travel enough?

1750 is better not worse. As long it’s not the pathetic P pump. Street rig, 1500 is probably fine, still better than P pump. I believe that 8” is not enough for SD axles, personally I haven’t yet built one for myself. I have two project 60 front ends but they are waiting for their turn in my life still. This your tow rig right? Why would you ever need a second steering box after the initial build? That scout box should do you and last the rest of your life.

 

[Sean]

1750 is better not worse. As long it’s not the pathetic P pump. Street rig, 1500 is probably fine, still better than P pump. I believe that 8” is not enough for SD axles, personally I haven’t yet built one for myself. I have two project 60 front ends but they are waiting for their turn in my life still. This your tow rig right? Why would you ever need a second steering box after the initial build? That scout box should do you and last the rest of your life.

Thanks. Thought I read you said running too big a pump (flow and pressure) could be a problem. Should I be sticking closer to that 4.5 gpm and 1650 PSI number? I'm sure RD can build it that way and it will definitely be a TC pump....got a P Pump on my buggy now and don't love it and bought a CBR from PSC with a full hydro kit but since talking to Eric at RD, I've pretty much shit-canned that idea and am going with his TC pumps on any future full hydro stuff too.

I may just get an 8.75 or 10" travel ram then and limit it. I'd assume I'd still want to stick with the 2.5" diameter and 1.5" rod size and not go 2.75" or 3.0", correct?

Yeah....I was kind of thinking the Scout box might go on the 4Runner I'd originally bought it for and put the newer Chevy Series 800 on the Dodge. Not sure it matters which goes on which.

 

[JR4X]

Thanks. Thought I read you said running too big a pump (flow and pressure) could be a problem. Should I be sticking closer to that 4.5 gpm and 1650 PSI number? I'm sure RD can build it that way and it will definitely be a TC pump....got a P Pump on my buggy now and don't love it and bought a CBR from PSC with a full hydro kit but since talking to Eric at RD, I've pretty much shit-canned that idea and am going with his TC pumps on any future full hydro stuff too.

Yeah....I was kind of thinking the Scout box might go on the 4Runner I'd originally bought it for and put the newer Chevy Series 800 on the Dodge. Not sure it matters which goes on which.

4 to 6 is good. I don’t personally want over 6 gpm for a single steer axle, we can optimize within that 4.5 to 6 so in that window we’re good. 9 gpm is absurd unless you have rear steer with two 3” rams, that 9 is 30%~50% more than you need. Running more pump than you need is wasted horsepower and extra heat in the hydraulic system you have to dissipate for no reason. CB pumps aren’t bad, they’re better than a P pump. But TC and especially RD’s TC are the better regular belt driven pump.

 

[Sean]

4 to 6 is good. I don’t personally want over 6 gpm for a single steer axle, we can optimize within that 4.5 to 6 so in that window we’re good. 9 gpm is absurd unless you have rear steer with two 3” rams, that 9 is 30%~50% more than you need. Running more pump than you need is wasted horsepower and extra heat in the hydraulic system you have to dissipate for no reason. CB pumps aren’t bad, they’re better than a P pump. But TC and especially RD’s TC are the better regular belt driven pump.

Understood. Thanks for the guidance.

 

[Sean]

JR4X Sorry...one other question: I'm sure you're making your pitman arms custom (probably plating them to make them take a SRE and mounting it double shear)....but what is the donor pitman arm coming off of for the Sweet/Howe Saginaw 800 Series? I'd have to assume they come in all sorts of available (likely from someone like Dorman) drops and lengths to fit that sector shaft diameter/spline count....just wondering what year/make/model I should be looking for for the 700 or 800 series boxes (If you happen to know)?

 

[JR4X]

JR4X Sorry...one other question: I'm sure you're making your pitman arms custom (probably plating them to make them take a SRE and mounting it double shear)....but what is the donor pitman arm coming off of for the Sweet/Howe Saginaw 800 Series? I'd have to assume they come in all sorts of available (likely from someone like Dorman) drops and lengths to fit that sector shaft diameter/spline count....just wondering what year/make/model I should be looking for for the 700 or 800 series boxes (If you happen to know)?

We do build our own so we can make it double shear and with the exact amount of drop we want. So we buy something like this. Performance Steering Components PSC PA700 PSC Universal Flat Pitman Arms | Summit Racing

We cut it off about where the red line is to leave basically a key to weld stuff around. Heat it up to about 400 degrees before mig welding it and they live a long life. We make our own version of something like this. Each vehicle has different requirements.

 

[Sean]

Thanks....was just looking over Dorman's site. The Sweet Mfg Series 700 box you linked in the DE hydro assist thread mentioned being used in all sorts of Chevy passenger cars from '64-'88....most of the 80's stuff had built in TREs on the end opposite the sector shaft....so one could conceivably cut those down too, but your link is super helpful to make sure we're not guessing about which pitman arm will fit the sector shaft diameter/spline count.

Thanks again!!