Unless you get a Radial Dynamics TC pump. Then it ticks every single box.
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Double ended ram hydro assist
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id be curious if the radial dynamics TC pump flows .80-.95 cu/in per rev like the CB or p pump or does it flow the .64 cu/in per rev like other TC pumps.
RadialDynamics
race car needs, need race car solutions
4.5 gpm 100% serves my 2 1/2x8” at sub 2 turns L2L needs. Dads #1 box is 1 turn L2L. Mine is 1 1/2. I do have one of these 6’rs on the shelf now though. I haven’t replaced a TC pump on our cars in over 3 years. Sold my last one to Paul Horschel at the Moab race so thought I’d try a 6 gpm one the next time one of the ones on the car goes out. It’ll be like my servos, I’ll probably sell it and replace it 5 times before I ever need it myself.
'84 Bronco II
El Chingón
Thinking comp crawling **** here; how does it do at or near idle if you try to shake the steering wheel fast and aggressively? Also what RPM are you running the pump at?
EDIT: This is exactly the sort of situation I am curious about. Logan comments on how the steering is too slow to shake the car over, and I am trying to get a handle on how much steering flow it would take to get steering fast enough to effectively throw a car around.
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Both cars at idle the pump rpm is 1200. Both of them have full steering at idle. Turn it either direction as fast as we want idling through anything we’ve ever been on.
Dad’s car with the automatic and stall converter never see RPM dips. Mine with the manual trans I can lug it down to 500 rpm before it stalls out and even then I don’t really suffer noticeable steering loss.
When Horschel needed my spare pump for his 4 wheel steer car that has 3”x11 rams. He was surprised how well my baby pump did getting him off the trail. His orbit valve failed and caused his bigger pump to twist the shaft off. I’ve never seen an orbit valve do what his did. The steering input shaft was locked up.
CumminsCrawler
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It's just the bolt on Cummins gear driven version.
Things worked out better than I had expected, but there are two downsides to the P-pump in this set-up where down the line I will eventually look into using a belt driven TC pump with a small pulley to fix the issues. I do have hydroboost plumbed in as well, so maybe that contributes to what I'm about to list. I'm not sure though.
At idle there isn't enough fluid flow, so in the rocks with the hubs locked it's much much quicker if I put the transmission in Neutral than leaving it in gear if I'm turning locked to locked. In Neutral, with the hubs and diff locked, it's turns like butter.
Secondly when I'm trying to turn quick at low speeds, think weaving through parking lots (my only real world time I run into this), I'll be in 2nd gear and the steering is for sure more stiff. Not stiff enough where I can' turn, and staying in 1st gear at 15 mph would solve it, but just a real world thing that i noticed with the steering.
Both things listed above arn't really hindering anything as a daily drive or a crawler, just not ideal. Where a Belt driven TC pump with a small pulley will fix my issues.
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Yup spot on 06h3 , my thoughts as well.
With these recent posts, I think these videos from JR4X and I earlier in the thread may be relevant again just in case they help anyone. These are back on page 3 if you want to read more context, but they're pretty self explanatory. JR's system with less volume requirements is waaay faster at idle. I theoretically have a bit more power available, but that's always the tradeoff
With these recent posts, I think these videos from JR4X and I earlier in the thread may be relevant again just in case they help anyone. These are back on page 3 if you want to read more context, but they're pretty self explanatory. JR's system with less volume requirements is waaay faster at idle. I theoretically have a bit more power available, but that's always the tradeoff
Excellent info as always man, cool additional details on pump volumes. And I wasn't aware of the difference of materials between your rings and OEM ones, that's slick.
Because this is good stuff we’re covering that might get talked about every now and then, but rarely has these video references, here’s another one I took tonight. Not super tech heavy or anything, just talking about how the pressure is good and my steering power at idle is fantastic, but volume at idle could be improved. I know this might be a bit of a side tangent of this thread, but seems related enough to be helpful. If I went with the smaller 2" DE ram mentioned earlier in this thread, much less volume would be required so I'd be able to steer faster. But this is a heavy rig with big tires, so I'm still happy I went with a 2.5" ram, sacrificing some speed for more power. I just might up the pump size to accompany that in the future
Sean
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What size tire are you running?
Here is some data, 700 engine rpm idle (used Ls because it’s most common) stock 7.5in pulley for crank, and an aftermarket 5.5in pulley for pump. 955 rpm.
4-6 gpm pump, cu./ in. per rev becomes irrelevant between 1500 and 2000 engine rpm. All pumps are bypassing fluid at that point on.
1.5inx8 SE ram and steering box has about 29 cu in of volume in the system. 2.5x8in DE ram is 25 cu in. alone. Factor in an orbital or depowered box is probably in the same realm as a ram assist setup at about 29 cu in.
What AgitatedPancake has is 40% more volume at around 42 cu in with his whole setup. If he had a 6gpm pump revving to 2000 rpm I bet it would be quick if there were no other internal restrictions. It’s just a system that asks for a lot and at idle it’s tough to keep up.
There’s no doubt the RD TC pump is the most stout, and will hold up to abuse, I just don’t see it flowing enough volume at idle for fluid hungry setups unless you run a tiny pulley and then rev it up to 10-11k pump rpm near redline engine rpm which isn’t good for any pump.
Granted, agitated’s setup is not common so I’d say for 99% of people the RD TC pump is the way to go.
That’s why my **** works and leaves everybody scratching their heads. Y’all thinking in LS
That’s a weird version of American metric People worry about “value”. Dollars per performance. Nothing has disappointed me more than the “value” and performance of a P pump.
How many pounds of steering force output do you think you have?
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Just under 6,000lbs of force at the knuckles if the pump is running 1100psi, give or take-ish (if I did my math right lol)
(From the steering calculator thread) Steering Displacement and Speed Calculator
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That’s why my **** works and leaves everybody scratching their heads. Y’all thinking in LS
People worry about “value”. Dollars per performance. Nothing has disappointed me more than the “value” and performance of a P pump.
Dumb LS’s….As you know, p pump isn’t the answer, it will fall apart and it still really doesn’t deliver the volume needed, it just gets you closer. The thing that will deliver the volume is the high dollar RD pump
RDT High Flow Steering Pump
The Radial Dynamics RDT series high flow steering pump is the next generation "Trophy Truck" level steering pump. This is a large displacement, internally flow regulated pump with a number of features that set it apart from other high flow pumps on the market with increased performance...
radial-dynamics.com
It almost delivers DOUBLE the flow per revolution of the RD TC pump. It solves the problem for fluid hungry setups. It’s really your only option for the flow needed, if it’s too pricey, then spend time and money elsewhere depowering the box, getting an external servo, etc.
My rear steer crawler will be steered by one of those without a doubt. I’m not going to mess around with anything else. Just going to jump straight to that and be done with it.
As you know, p pump isn’t the answer, it will fall apart and it still really doesn’t deliver the volume needed, it just gets you closer. The thing that will deliver the volume is the high dollar RD pump
RDT High Flow Steering Pump
The Radial Dynamics RDT series high flow steering pump is the next generation "Trophy Truck" level steering pump. This is a large displacement, internally flow regulated pump with a number of features that set it apart from other high flow pumps on the market with increased performance...
It almost delivers DOUBLE the flow per revolution of the RD TC pump. It solves the problem for fluid hungry setups. It’s really your only option for the flow needed, if it’s too pricey, then spend time and money elsewhere depowering the box, getting an external servo, etc.
CumminsCrawler
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40's currently. Geared for 42's and will go back to that size once I have the funds.
My 12 valve has PSC pump, their larger xd gear, reservoir and a log cooler. It steers 37s pretty well at low rpm on trails. Gear is tapped but I haven't added a ram yet. We'll see when I move to 40s. Probably will change the 3.54 gears as well
The gear also leaks from the input shaft after rescuing someone out of a mud pit. I still need to try to find a seal. PSC wants me to ship the whole steering gear to them
The gear also leaks from the input shaft after rescuing someone out of a mud pit. I still need to try to find a seal. PSC wants me to ship the whole steering gear to them
Malburg114
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I just talked to radial dynamics the last few weeks and they told me to go straight to a 6gpm pump using pretty much your original setup on your dads car. We will see how it goes.4.5 gpm 100% serves my 2 1/2x8” at sub 2 turns L2L needs. Dads #1 box is 1 turn L2L. Mine is 1 1/2. I do have one of these 6’rs on the shelf now though. I haven’t replaced a TC pump on our cars in over 3 years. Sold my last one to Paul Horschel at the Moab race so thought I’d try a 6 gpm one the next time one of the ones on the car goes out. It’ll be like my servos, I’ll probably sell it and replace it 5 times before I ever need it myself.
Alright, I officially have paralysis by analysis.
I need to order parts and I am trying to do so by Friday. My steering is on it's way out, I had my first steering failure in 10 years of having my rig SAS'd so it's time to spend some money. I have one part currently, a 2.5x1.5x10in DE Ram. I wont use all 10in now, I can internally limit it if I have to, I just went with 10in because if I ever need it one day, I have it vs buying a new ram and starting over. JR4X I am going your route, I read the pirate thread, the migration irate thread, this thread. It seems things have changed over time as you all learned more but some things havent changed so I am not sure what "today's part list."
So I have the ram.
I need a pump, servo and box mods. Also, do I need the external relief? I see some use that, some dont.
www.kartek.com
I currently have a Xterra steering box, delphi 600, 3.75 turn. It is too slow as is and I hate it. I can swap WJ internals in it, that will make it 2.75 turn. I think that is a happy medium?
This is a trail rig, it does drive on the freeway, my wife will sometimes drive it, like once a year, if she has her vehicle in the shop or something.
I have no problem buying the howe modified sweet servo but I also see that you used a off the shelf sweet servo for a "trail rig" do I go that route? I can go either way, I just need to know which way to go for a trail rig.
Lastly, I would rather not swap my box as it is already packaged, fits and mounts to the frame but if I have to, I can, begrudgingly. It would be easier to swap internals with other delphi 600 boxes to achieve the ratios I need but I can do whatever I need to do at this point.
I need to order parts and I am trying to do so by Friday. My steering is on it's way out, I had my first steering failure in 10 years of having my rig SAS'd so it's time to spend some money. I have one part currently, a 2.5x1.5x10in DE Ram. I wont use all 10in now, I can internally limit it if I have to, I just went with 10in because if I ever need it one day, I have it vs buying a new ram and starting over. JR4X I am going your route, I read the pirate thread, the migration irate thread, this thread. It seems things have changed over time as you all learned more but some things havent changed so I am not sure what "today's part list."
So I have the ram.
I need a pump, servo and box mods. Also, do I need the external relief? I see some use that, some dont.
Howe Performance Power Steering Relief Valve #8 Pressure In/Out #10 Return To Reservoir - Kartek Off-Road
Howe Performance Power Steering Relief Valve #8 Pressure In/Out #10 Return To Reservoir for offroad racing in the King of the Hammers, New Zealand Taupo 1000, Dakar Rally, Tatts Finke Desert Race, Score International Baja 500 or Baja 1000, NORRA 500, NORRA Mexican 1000, Mint 400, Vegas to Reno...
www.kartek.com
I currently have a Xterra steering box, delphi 600, 3.75 turn. It is too slow as is and I hate it. I can swap WJ internals in it, that will make it 2.75 turn. I think that is a happy medium?
This is a trail rig, it does drive on the freeway, my wife will sometimes drive it, like once a year, if she has her vehicle in the shop or something.
I have no problem buying the howe modified sweet servo but I also see that you used a off the shelf sweet servo for a "trail rig" do I go that route? I can go either way, I just need to know which way to go for a trail rig.
Lastly, I would rather not swap my box as it is already packaged, fits and mounts to the frame but if I have to, I can, begrudgingly. It would be easier to swap internals with other delphi 600 boxes to achieve the ratios I need but I can do whatever I need to do at this point.
Sean
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Out of curiosity, why didn't you get the Howe version? According to JR4X, there is a difference.Ordered the sweet (non howe modified version) servo. Wish me luck in this endeavor!
So it isn't that we need new threads, I am just a moron
I have been thinking about the double ended ram route as well. It seems it is getting more popular. Years ago it was "IT WONT WORK" but people are experimenting and it isnt so foreign anymore.
JR4X you may have mentioned it here so maybe I missed it but what is your "trail adapted" setup and how does it differ from the race setup.
Same basic parts just “smaller” cheaper parts. Junkyard XJ steering box because those are 12:1 ratio (3 turn) cheaper readily available PSC TC pump. Still a 2 1/2”x8” double ended ram. Off the shelf sweet valve with a 200 or 210 torsion bar. This 1 ton Comando on 40’s has been a daily driver/trail rig. My brother Kevin packaged this up for the owner.
See the posts above, there is a difference but this he said this was a "trail" setup and fine for trail use compared to racing.
Sean
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Gotcha. I remembered part of his thread saying that the reason it didn't work for some folks is they didn't copy the recipe closely enough. I must've completely skimmed over those examples.....or just decided, if I'm going to spend that much, might as well adopt the "buy once, cry once" philosophy, lol.
Best part is: bought all the parts.....except for the PS pump for one of my builds.....not realizing it's some one off odd ball gear driven P pump off the back of the engine, not belt driven off the front and now I've gotta figure out how I'm gonna mate all of this up. 1st world problems, right? :)
I am hoping I am following it close enough, I would have ordered the howe version but saw this post and I am a trail wheeler, not a racer. I could have waited for his response but I need to get parts moving. I will get the same PSC pump he recommended, it isnt horribly priced.
Hi-Flow Type II/TC Power Steering Pump
The heart of any modern power steering system is the pump. PSC offers a full range of new power steering pumps, covering most applications from American Muscle Cars to vintage and newer Jeeps, and most models of Dodge, Ford, and GM Trucks. We even have a solution for those Rock Crawling rigs...
www.pscmotorsports.com
The only other unknown is if a Delphi box will work. I am making it a 2.75 turn which is hopefully quick enough, I think 12:1 is the high, but workable, end of too slow (3 turn) 8:1 is 2 turn and preferred, I know my current box wont work at almost 4 turn. WJ internals go in the xterra box and have 10:1 or 11:1.
Alright, I officially have paralysis by analysis.
I need to order parts and I am trying to do so by Friday. My steering is on it's way out, I had my first steering failure in 10 years of having my rig SAS'd so it's time to spend some money. I have one part currently, a 2.5x1.5x10in DE Ram. I wont use all 10in now, I can internally limit it if I have to, I just went with 10in because if I ever need it one day, I have it vs buying a new ram and starting over. JR4X I am going your route, I read the pirate thread, the migration irate thread, this thread. It seems things have changed over time as you all learned more but some things havent changed so I am not sure what "today's part list."
So I have the ram.
I need a pump, servo and box mods. Also, do I need the external relief? I see some use that, some dont.
Howe Performance Power Steering Relief Valve #8 Pressure In/Out #10 Return To Reservoir - Kartek Off-Road
Howe Performance Power Steering Relief Valve #8 Pressure In/Out #10 Return To Reservoir for offroad racing in the King of the Hammers, New Zealand Taupo 1000, Dakar Rally, Tatts Finke Desert Race, Score International Baja 500 or Baja 1000, NORRA 500, NORRA Mexican 1000, Mint 400, Vegas to Reno...
I currently have a Xterra steering box, delphi 600, 3.75 turn. It is too slow as is and I hate it. I can swap WJ internals in it, that will make it 2.75 turn. I think that is a happy medium?
This is a trail rig, it does drive on the freeway, my wife will sometimes drive it, like once a year, if she has her vehicle in the shop or something.
I have no problem buying the howe modified sweet servo but I also see that you used a off the shelf sweet servo for a "trail rig" do I go that route? I can go either way, I just need to know which way to go for a trail rig.
Lastly, I would rather not swap my box as it is already packaged, fits and mounts to the frame but if I have to, I can, begrudgingly. It would be easier to swap internals with other delphi 600 boxes to achieve the ratios I need but I can do whatever I need to do at this point.
You've more recently read the posts again than I have, and I haven't done it so I am just arm chairing here...
But it seems like you're combining two different methods - there's the full on standalone servo method with a manual steering box, and there's the "adapted" style where you turn a power steering box into a manual box and utilize the built in servo.
If you already have a power steering box with a servo inside, but you want to run the separate servo, I think your current box is a moot point since you will need a manual box to combine with that Sweet servo
I need to make my current powered box manual, and also change the L2L to a quicker lock to lock ratio.
Right, but how are you going to disable the servo of your current power steering box? You'll be running two servos.
The same way everyone else has disabled the servo. It is explained in post 5
That’s exactly what I was thinking about. I understood that as how to disable power steering while keeping the servo intact for the “cheap” way.The same way everyone else has disabled the servo. It is explained in post 5
But, like I said blind leading the blind here I could still be misunderstanding this system.
I’ll wait for the master to step in before I keep spewing potential misinformation
Apologies for the late reply. A lot to respond to here.
The ram is super easy to limit. 1 3/4 DOM has an 1 1/2 ID that fits over the ram shaft nice and clean to internally stop it. That ram should be perfectly fine.
I wouldn’t do the external relief for a trail rig. The internal relief on the pump will handle the PSI spikes you’ll generate. I recommend a TC pump for a long lifed unit. Radial Dynamics pumps are bad ass but they aren’t cheap. The pump I used to get from PSC it seems like isn’t available anymore.I need a pump, servo and box mods. Also, do I need the external relief? I see some use that, some dont.
Howe Performance Power Steering Relief Valve #8 Pressure In/Out #10 Return To Reservoir - Kartek Off-Road
Howe Performance Power Steering Relief Valve #8 Pressure In/Out #10 Return To Reservoir for offroad racing in the King of the Hammers, New Zealand Taupo 1000, Dakar Rally, Tatts Finke Desert Race, Score International Baja 500 or Baja 1000, NORRA 500, NORRA Mexican 1000, Mint 400, Vegas to Reno...
I can only help with advice on a Saginaw 700 series. Everything I know of that works to my satisfaction has a Saginaw Jeep style box with 12:1 or faster ratios. Brother has done a couple JK boxes but I don’t know even know what those are.
Might as well start with that servo. I don’t know if it will work but $600 savings over the servo I use it’s worth a shot.
No personal experience with those. Not what I’d use if I was starting from scratch so proceed at your own risk.