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Waste of time and money... Turbo TBI

I already have all the stuff to log and program gm TBI so it seems easy to me, but why not put a 366/427/454 tbi on it, crank up the fuel pressure, swap in a 2 bar map sensor, and scale your tables for spark and fuel to reflect it?
Only spendy part would be the moates burner.
 
CarterKraft said:
So Ill continue this in my own thread but I'm curious how much cash it takes to get to the same spot.

I have zero blow through carb knowledge, I know there are some diy style guides but I don't have the time or money to dump into "learning blow through".
The idea is interesting if you could do it cheap ish.
Click to expand...

I'd say 3500-4k would get you a complete blow through single turbo setup with an oilless Comp Turbo, a blow through carb, fuel pump and all the hot and cold piping to build a DIY setup. On gas you would need some sort of intercooler to make any real boost but if you ran E85 or methanol you could make decent boost and power without one. If you went with a Borg Warner turbo it could be done cheaper but the oilless turbos are tits because they can be mounted anywhere (bed😁) and there are no oil or return lines to run. :smokin:



Old Man's Garage and SRC on YouTube just put a used twin turbo blow through setup on a stock crank/rod 4 bolt 355 that is in Old Man's Nova and they are running it on E85 with no intercooler. It's only been in the car a few weeks but they have already made boost with it without blowing the crank out of the pan.:laughing: Check out those channels and look at the latest episodes with the red Nova for ideas.
 
CarterKraft said:
This is the question of the century.
The $$$ spent to go Terminator/FAST/etc. easily exceeds the LS swap.
Gen 1/2 sbc is really lacking a affordable induction system.
If I had a milling machine I might think about putting bungs in a Aluminum intake.
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Microsquirt

Could have it running under $500 and have full control and enough features.

Edit: and it can be used to run an LS later, they even have drop on harnesses for them. You're just limited to batch fire and wasted spark which isnt the end of the world.
 
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SLOWPOKE693 said:
I'd say 3500-4k would get you a complete blow through single turbo setup with an oilless Comp Turbo, a blow through carb, fuel pump and all the hot and cold piping to build a DIY setup. On gas you would need some sort of intercooler to make any real boost but if you ran E85 or methanol you could make decent boost and power without one. If you went with a Borg Warner turbo it could be done cheaper but the oilless turbos are tits because they can be mounted anywhere (bed😁) and there are no oil or return lines to run. :smokin:



Old Man's Garage and SRC on YouTube just put a used twin turbo blow through setup on a stock crank/rod 4 bolt 355 that is in Old Man's Nova and they are running it on E85 with no intercooler. It's only been in the car a few weeks but they have already made boost with it without blowing the crank out of the pan.:laughing: Check out those channels and look at the latest episodes with the red Nova for ideas.
Click to expand...

There will only be 2 laws in the U.S. when I become president:
1) Ban stainless steel NPT fittings, violators will be hung for treason.
2) Throw anyone who turbos a spark ignited engine without adding an intercooler in jail for 50 years.
 
Projectjunkie said:
I might have a 454 tbi on a core sitting in the rain, do you need the throttle body or the injectors?
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I think just the injectors, some people swap the whole throttle body others just the injectors from what I've read.
 
kc8ksg said:
I think just the injectors, some people swap the whole throttle body others just the injectors from what I've read.
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I'll check this weekend, but I'm thinking they've been exposed to the elements, I'd they look salvageable I'll pm you
 
kc8ksg said:
Ok sounds good.
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IIRC the 454 throttle body is 670 CFM so you would want that. Do you have a link to cheap injectors? If Project Junkie cant hook you up i can pull off my 454 throttle body and ship it to you.

Are 5.7L SBC Vortec engines are still available cheap? If they still are available the cubes and heads alone would make the swap worthwhile.
 
ANGRYBLACK said:
IIRC the 454 throttle body is 670 CFM so you would want that. Do you have a link to cheap injectors? If Project Junkie cant hook you up i can pull off my 454 throttle body and ship it to you.

Are 5.7L SBC Vortec engines are still available cheap? If they still are available the cubes and heads alone would make the swap worthwhile.
Click to expand...

He definitely wants the BBC TBI. It's more cfm and pretty much a direct swap aside from IAC wiring. Also, save the adapter to the quadrajet pattern on the intake.
 
As said fuel only microsquirt would probably be the easiest way, though there is still a pretty steep learning curve on that.

Regardless get a wideband coming, you're going to need it

Careful with timing too, if you carry the stock timing (probably like 32ish deg all in on a SBC?) into some decent boost you're gonna have a bad day
 
mjlogan88 said:
As said fuel only microsquirt would probably be the easiest way, though there is still a pretty steep learning curve on that.

Regardless get a wideband coming, you're going to need it

Careful with timing too, if you carry the stock timing (probably like 32ish deg all in on a SBC?) into some decent boost you're gonna have a bad day
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Why not just add a 2 bar map sensor and tune the stock ECM? That gives control over fuel and spark without having to make any harness changes.
 
ANGRYBLACK said:
IIRC the 454 throttle body is 670 CFM so you would want that. Do you have a link to cheap injectors? If Project Junkie cant hook you up i can pull off my 454 throttle body and ship it to you.

Are 5.7L SBC Vortec engines are still available cheap? If they still are available the cubes and heads alone would make the swap worthwhile.
Click to expand...

I don't know what the Vortec small blocks are going for right now, but if I were going the route of pulling the engine I'd just put a 5.3 or 6.0 in it. I've even thought about a 4.2 from a Trailblazer since I've got at least 5 of them sitting around and people seem to be making good power with them with boost.
The thing is, I've got plenty of long term projects. This one, at least at this phase I want to be cheap and relatively quick just to see what I can get from the 305.

Here's a link to the 454 injectors, I found them cheaper on Amazon.
Standard Motor Products TJ11 Fuel Injector Amazon.com
larboc said:
Why not just add a 2 bar map sensor and tune the stock ECM? That gives control over fuel and spark without having to make any harness changes.
Click to expand...
I did a little googling and you have me intrigued, is this what I'd need? Then I'm assuming a chip to tune also?

I have Hptuners and have used it some, but nothing too in depth. I'm guessing this is sort of like that?

boostednw.com

BoostedNW Chip Burner

BoostedNW SST Chip Burner is a direct replacement for Moates Burn2 chip programmer to easily program SST27SF512
boostednw.com boostednw.com
 
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kc8ksg said:
I don't know what the Vortec small blocks are going for right now, but if I were going the route of pulling the engine I'd just put a 5.3 or 6.0 in it. I've even thought about a 4.2 from a Trailblazer since I've got at least 5 of them sitting around and people seem to be making good power with them with boost.
The thing is, I've got plenty of long term projects. This one, at least at this phase I want to be cheap and relatively quick just to see what I can get from the 305.

Here's a link to the 454 injectors, I found them cheaper on Amazon.
Standard Motor Products TJ11 Fuel Injector Amazon.com

I did a little googling and you have me intrigued, is this what I'd need? Then I'm assuming a chip to tune also?

I have Hptuners and have used it some, but nothing too in depth. I'm guessing this is sort of like that?

boostednw.com

BoostedNW Chip Burner

BoostedNW SST Chip Burner is a direct replacement for Moates Burn2 chip programmer to easily program SST27SF512
boostednw.com boostednw.com
Click to expand...

Looks like moates closed their doors, that looks like a suitable replacement.
Same idea kinda as hptuners vcm editor
, except you pop out the eeprom and use a burner to flash. You need a separate cable for logging through obd1 port and winaldl. Bill USN makes a nice one, or you can DIY.
 
larboc said:
There will only be 2 laws in the U.S. when I become president:
1) Ban stainless steel NPT fittings, violators will be hung for treason.
2) Throw anyone who turbos a spark ignited engine without adding an intercooler in jail for 50 years.
Click to expand...

Intercoolers really are not needed with alcohol based fuels.
 
larboc said:
Looks like moates closed their doors, that looks like a suitable replacement.
Same idea kinda as hptuners vcm editor
, except you pop out the eeprom and use a burner to flash. You need a separate cable for logging through obd1 port and winaldl. Bill USN makes a nice one, or you can DIY.
Click to expand...
It looks like that company sells the data logging cable too.
So can I buy a chip from that company, read the tune from mine and burn it to the new one and then modify it while keeping the stock one "just in case"?
This seems like the way to go, and would avoid a lot of hacks with resistors and things just to make it function.
 
kc8ksg said:
It looks like that company sells the data logging cable too.
So can I buy a chip from that company, read the tune from mine and burn it to the new one and then modify it while keeping the stock one "just in case"?
This seems like the way to go, and would avoid a lot of hacks with resistors and things just to make it function.
Click to expand...
Yes. Check to see if the stock prom has the mask available for tuner pro, if not you may want to find a '747 ecu and swap it in. Can you post the ecu number and prom code?
 
larboc said:
Why not just add a 2 bar map sensor and tune the stock ECM? That gives control over fuel and spark without having to make any harness changes.
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Im sure its possible, I just have no experience with tuning antiquated 90s stuff.

My main point is invest in a wideband now. It'll be a useful, and i'd argue necessary, tool for your current project. Plus you'll use it down the road when you go LS
 
This seemed like the best (budget) way to get into the gen 1 boosted game with the capability of EFI, high fuel flow etc.

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I was thinking if he was trying to do it cheap, get any old aluminum intake and weld some injector ports in there. If you can fabricate well enough to put a whole turbo system together that fits under the hood, you should be able to hack fuck that together for the 135 minutes of fucking around before the rods are in the pan
I still vote by whatever management system you are going to run on the turbo LS later and hack some shit onto the small block to use the fuel control now
 
Blacksheep10 said:
I was thinking if he was trying to do it cheap, get any old aluminum intake and weld some injector ports in there. If you can fabricate well enough to put a whole turbo system together that fits under the hood, you should be able to hack fuck that together for the 135 minutes of fucking around before the rods are in the pan
I still vote by whatever management system you are going to run on the turbo LS later and hack some shit onto the small block to use the fuel control now
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The problem (if it is a problem) is the rails have to match exactly the spacing and plane of the bungs or you wont get the rail to seal.
 
CarterKraft said:
The problem (if it is a problem) is the rails have to match exactly the spacing and plane of the bungs or you wont get the rail to seal.
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Might be easier to JB weld the bungs using a 3d printed jig on the intake then drill through them afterwards?
 
Blacksheep10 said:
I still vote by whatever management system you are going to run on the turbo LS later and hack some shit onto the small block to use the fuel control now
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That's what i'd do. Start on that learning curve now. Otherwise you'll be learning some eprom nonsense now and be throwing that knowledge and time away down the road.

Hell even adding spark control is relatively easy with 2 racks of LS coils. You need a crank trigger for fuel only control anyway.

The only way i'd keep the whole stock package is throw a WB at it and just try to fake out the stock pcm while keeping an eye on the AFR. Which might be a fun little adventure on its own.
 
larboc said:
Yes. Check to see if the stock prom has the mask available for tuner pro, if not you may want to find a '747 ecu and swap it in. Can you post the ecu number and prom code?
Click to expand...
I think the ecu is in the passenger kick panel I'll have to look and see.
mjlogan88 said:
The only way i'd keep the whole stock package is throw a WB at it and just try to fake out the stock pcm while keeping an eye on the AFR. Which might be a fun little adventure on its own.
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This is somewhat the plan, throw it together and see what happens. I like that the chip burner is relatively cheap so if I decide I want to go that route it's an option if it ends up running like crap when it's all together.
 
I've done a lot of eeprom burning on obd1 gm tbi stuff back before LS swaps were really a thing, made some decent money doing it and have fond memories. I also have hptuners and have done some of that.
If you already have the hptuners, I'd have a hard time convincing you that a $500 5.3+2wd 6l80e swap isn't the way to go.
 
The LT1 pump and bigger injectors sound like they could help with fueling, but it's definitely a bit of a gamble when it comes to adding boost.
It might be worth experimenting with the turbo kit and seeing how much power you can get out of the 305 before making the jump to an LS swap. Who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised by the results!
Also, if you're looking for a fun way to make some extra cash, I recently came across some real money games for cash app that pay money instantly. I tried them out and had a blast! It's a cool way to earn a bit of cash in your spare time.
 
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Anyone ever seen a DIY throttle body with some big cc injectors?

It just occurred to me the butterfly's are separate from the venturies on a 4150 or similar Holley.
You could Weld the hole thing up and only have to machine a few faces parallel (lathe would work) then you'd have to work out rails and bungs...

The rails and bungs are the sucky part requiring a mill to get right IMO.

I need a mill...
 
kc8ksg said:
From what I've read you upgrade to the 454 throttle body after that.
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Affordable fuel injection bores out the 350 throttle body for bigger butterflies and installs 454 injectors in their kit.
 
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