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Turbo Charging and Forced Induction BASICS

Provience

Kill!
Joined
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Gatesville, TX
Help me out here :laughing: trying to write stuff down for future reference and haven't seen a thread here on Irate about it.

Hell, just drop a link and some comments from various places around the web of MFG information

1) How do you pick a HP target?

2) how do you measure and size a turbo, so that you can pick one out from a catalog or whatever

3) flanges, are they all the same?

4) what's the deal with boost/relief pressure stuff?

5) is there a general rule of thumb for when you are going to obviously destroy your motor? is there a "safe" and conservative volume?

6) Intercoolers?

7) what's a complete setup look like?

lot's of questions, for a great many answers. If you generally know the answers, but want to know what specific motor i'm looking at, pick one you already own and talk about that as an example :)

rules of thumb and dyno charts are acceptable and not required
 
The Difference Between Wastegates and Blow-Off Valves (hotrod.com)

What even is a wastegate and a BOV ?

As turbocharging becomes more popular in both factory and aftermarket applications, those of us familiar with naturally aspirated engines might not be fully up to speed on our turbo-plumbing anatomy. One of the big mix-ups seems to be with two parts used in aftermarket forced-induction systems, which can look similar, but actually do two different jobs: the wastegate and the blow-off valve.

Wastegates

When a turbocharger's exhaust-driven turbine wheel spins fast enough to produce the desired level of boost, a wastegate is typically used to allow the excess exhaust pressure to divert around the turbine wheel. By opening the wastegate (typically boost-pressure referenced), exhaust pressure bypasses the turbo's turbine wheel to prevent the turbo from reaching an unsafe speed. You'll find external wastegates on the exhaust (hot) side of turbo plumbing between the turbocharger turbine wheel and the exhaust manifold—or sometimes in the exhaust manifold itself—where it can get exhaust upstream of the turbo and route it back into the exhaust downstream of the turbo. Not all turbocharger systems need wastegates, such as late-model turbos with variable-geometry turbine housings (which can provide similar capability).

In its at-rest state, a wastegate is closed and boost pressure can be controlled by varying the pressure of the spring holding it closed. A wastegate can also work in concert with a boost controller to improve boost response by staying closed to a higher boost threshold.


Blow-Off Valves


Located on the pressurized intake (cold) side of the turbo plumbing, blow-off valves (BOVs), like wastegates, are normally closed and open to bleed off boost pressure. Their main job is to prevent the pressure in the intake tract from backing up and causing compressor surge when engine speed changes abruptly—like when the throttle closes during a shift. When a BOV is vented to atmosphere, it produces a distinctive hissing sound, and when a BOV isn't used or is of insufficient size, the compressor surges and makes a chirping or rattling sound. Compressor surge can put stress on the compressor and its bearings, shortening its life.

Does your car need a blow-off valve? We talk to the experts — The Motorhood

this is a fun article/interview talking about blow off valve. general consensus is YES and buy quality, no reason to hammer the front of the turbo compressor with the air charge when the throttle blades close, even if it is just a little bit. If you are using an Air Fuel Meter car, it is suggested to vent the BOV into the intake rather than to the atmosphere to prevent an over-fuel stall, otherwise venting to atmosphere is easy provided you aren't in a high dust environment. apparently the BOV has a risk of allowing some outside air inside during operation :rasta:

edit: another note to add, STS rear (remote) mounted full kits do not come with a BOV and this is likely due to the significant volume that a very long charged air tube is able to handle the pressure better? not sure, but sounds good on paper
 
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I've worked on maybe a dozen vehicles which had turbos.. but Im not an expert... lol

ever hear of an escort cosworth? well last I heard you couldnt buy one in the states.. but you can get lots of parts... I helped one of my best friends swap turbos maybe 5 times? in his escort.. its still in his garage I think.. super fast.. used to enjoy beating lots of mustangs and camaros.. etc.. ((EDIT: he is in a wheel chair from a bad accident in high school, so I did much of the work, while he was showing me stuff on the net.. or I would take pics and ask questions))

why do you think you want a turbo?
 
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why do you think you want a turbo?

everything is better with a turbo :laughing:

every year or so, i do a bunch of reading and note taking. partly to keep somewhat up with the times, partly because i don't ever use it so i forget it quickly. good to write stuff down and figured other people could benefit from it in the future as well.
 
Edited for runtime and to fit the format of your screen (full article at link)

How to Match a Turbocharger to Your Engine: Step-by-Step Guide (musclecardiy.com)

If you’re looking for a nice power increase for all-around street driving, a 50-percent increase is more realistic and matching a turbo to this level of increase will produce more satisfactory results. A 300 percent power increase (200 to 600 hp) is possible in many engines, but increases like that are reserved for competition engines that have an array of additional modifications, both internal and external, that all work together to achieve this level of power. One of the most important factors in determining which turbocharger is most appropriate is to have your target horsepower in mind. But you have to be realistic about what you’re shooting for.

The application and intended use of the vehicle is extremely important as well. An autocross car, for example, would require a rapid boost rise for fast acceleration, whereas a Bonneville car running long straights is more concerned with horsepower at higher engine speeds. Indy cars frequently adjust the turbo for short tracks versus long tracks because of how critical the turbo match is to optimize flow at specific engine and vehicle speeds. Tractor pull applications will likely see the highest engine speeds right at the start of competition, and as the pull progresses, the load is progressively increased much like a prony brake until the engine is maximum loaded down by the pulling sled. These different uses require different turbo matches.

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most of the traditional aftermarket high-performance engine parts essentially raise the engine’s VE. Forced-air induction is all about increasing VE. But what is Volumetric Efficiency exactly?

An engine’s VE is a comparison of an engine’s calculated, or theoretical, volumetric flow rate of air, versus its actual capability. An engine has a fixed displacement, for example, 300 cubic inches. That displacement will theoretically flow 300 ci every two engine revolutions (a four-stroke engine must rotate twice for all cylinders to complete all four cycles). In theory, there would be a linear relation to airflow and engine RPM where doubling the revolutions per minute would double the air displaced by the engine. If an engine were able to flow exactly as much air during operation as the theoretical calculation says is possible, that engine would have a VE of 100 percent. However, in reality that rarely happens

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During actual engine operation, the intake valve is only opened for a short time. The higher the RPM, the less time the intake valve is off its seat. Therefore actual VE is not a constant. It’s typically an efficiency ratio at one spot in the engine’s operating range.

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The reason turbocharging has such a dramatic impact to engine performance can be better understood using this concept of volumetric efficiency. In a turbocharged engine, time still limits how long the intake valve is open, but if the intake pressure is greater than atmospheric pressure (boosted), then we can force more total air volume in during the valve opening. The quality of that air is improved for combustion purposes because its density has also been increased. The combination of boost pressure and air density compensate for the time-limiting aspect of the valve events and allow boosted engines to achieve well over 100-percent VE. But when maximizing total horsepower output, even turbocharged engines will benefit from many of the very same design improvements done to enhance VE on naturally aspirated engines.

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Historically, turbos weren’t marketed in the automotive performance aftermarket as widely as they are today and they were rated only in their mass-flow capability, not in terms of horsepower compatibility. However, a reasonable turbo match can be obtained by using a realistic horsepower target, and simply choosing a turbocharger from a manufacturer where your target horsepower is located right in the middle of the horsepower band it is capable of supporting.

For example, in the above situation where your target is 300 hp (a 50 percent increase over the stock 200 hp) the Garrett brand GT2860RS with a 76 trim, also known as the “Disco Potato,” might be an excellent choice. That turbo is rated to be compatible with horsepower applications of 250 to 360, so 300 is right in the middle of its capacity. This ballpark method allows for both surge margin and broad flow range of operation, as will be discussed in the following paragraphs. This is not the most scientific way to apply a turbo, but it can be done because much of the science of the horsepower match has already been done for you by the manufacturer rating a given turbo in its horsepower compatibility. Also, because many of the turbos offered for sale today have been built with an internally designed wastegate, subtle adjustments in boost pressure optimization can also be performed after the car is test driven. While most turbo experts will raise their eyebrows at this overly simplified approach, it can be very successful for the average turbo car project and it makes the confusion of turbo matching a rather simple process indeed.

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The process of properly matching a compressor to your engine uses a set of assumptions, all of which are intended to be close and approximate in order to reach a reasonably close turbo match. An approximation is necessary because of an engine’s varied RPM, the entire manifolding system (and its efficiency), corresponding fuel flow, and many other aspects that will affect the final match. This is why most consider turbocharger application both an art and a science. If it were a pure science, then the engine dynamometer cells used to refine turbo matches for production engines would not be necessary.

There is no shortage of reference materials on the subject of how to match a turbocharger to an engine. Most all are very sound, and some make it very difficult to follow along. We’ll attempt to progressively work our way through the math involved and explain what we are doing as we go. This way the concepts of what we are doing, and why, are best understood. After all, the objective of this book is to help you apply a turbocharger to your project and obtain good results, not confuse you with overly complicated math.

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Let’s assume we intend to turbo a 3.0-liter gas engine rated at 190 hp at 6,500 rpm in our street/strip car. The next assumption is that we wish to operate the turbo with 10 lbs of boost pressure (a reasonable boost level for which we can obtain proper fuel octane levels to control fuel ignition and avoid detonation). The first thing we do is to convert its displacement into cubic inches, allowing easier conversion into our ultimate objective of determining lbs/min of air mass flow.

3.0 liters =

3,000 cubic centimeters (cc)

Displacement in cc / 16.387 =

Cubic Inch Displacement

3,000 cc / 16.387 = 183 ci

Now that we have our displacement in cubic inches we need to calculate the engine’s airflow in CFM in its naturally aspirated state. This is very easily done as follows.

CID x 0.5 x Max RPM / 1,728 = CFM

This formula simply takes the engine’s size in cubic inches times .5 because in a four-cycle engine it takes two complete engine revolutions for all cylinders to complete their cycles. This value is then converted from cubic inches per minute to CFM by dividing it by 1,728, the number of cubic inches in one cubic foot (12 x 12 x 12 = 1,728).

So, this formula with our engine looks like this,

183 x .5 x 6,500 / 1,728 = 344 CFM

Next we take the 344 CFM and we adjust it to reality. The above calculation contains an assumption of 100- percent VE. Since most engines in a naturally aspirated state do not operate at 100 percent VE, we must adjust our calculation to compensate for this. While VE varies with engine speed, valve, etc., timing experts have historically agreed that an average of 80 percent is logical in most cases. However, in many of today’s engines operating with four valves, variable valve timing, and computer designed induction systems, it may be more logical to use a higher figure. For the sake of your calculations, you can use the following suggestions regarding what VE value to assume.

Typical two-valves-per-cylinder, push-rod engine: 80% VE

Four-valve engine: 85% VE

Four-valve engine w/variable valve timing: 95% VE

So for our example, we’ll assume it’s a four-valve engine: 344 CFM x .85 = 292.4 CFM

Now that we have the CFM flow potential of the engine in its naturally aspirated state we need to adjust it by the rise in actual airflow once turbocharged. We do this using a density ratio chart. It is possible to calculate a density ratio for each level of compressor efficiency at a given pressure ratio. This calculation says for any given compressor efficiency line there will be a resulting increase in air density at a given pressure. The density ratio chart plots air density as a function of compressor efficiency and pressure ratio. The pressure ratio is easily determined by taking ambient pressure, which is 14.7 lbs at sea level, adding it to your boost pressure, and then dividing it by ambient pressure. This gives you the absolute pressure ratio.

Boost Pressure + Ambient Pressure, P2

Ambient Pressure, P1

= Pressure Ratio

10 + 14.7 / 14.7 = 1.68 PR

Now that we know the pressure ratio is about 1.7 we can obtain the density ratio (DR) from one of our density ratio (aftercooled or nonaftercooled) charts. If boost is expected to exceed 7 lbs, it’s advisable to use an aftercooler. In the example, we’re talking about 10 lbs, so I’ve used the aftercooled chart.

...

By looking across the X-axis to the 1.7 PR and extending up to the 74 percent compressor efficiency line, we can then read across to find a density ratio of 1.5. The 74 percent number is used because it ends up being a conservative and realistic efficiency average to expect.

CFM x DR = CFM with our turbo

292.4 x 1.5 DR = 438.6 CFM turbocharged

Next we simply convert the turbocharged CFM into lbs/minute mass flow by multiplying it times standard air density, which is .069 lbs mass/cubic foot of air.

438.6 CFM x .069 = 30.26 lbs/min of air mass flow

The entire formula look like this, (0.5 x CID x Max RPM / 1,728) x VE x DR x .069

It’s really just that easy. One of the double checks is a basic ratio of 1 to 10. It takes about 1 lb mass of air per minute to make 10 horsepower. To double-check our example, we need about 30 lbs/min of mass flow and 30 lbs/min x 10 = 300 horsepower, so we should meet our goal.

To improve the accuracy of your calculations it may be worthwhile to use the 1:10 air mass-flow to horsepower ratio initially to basically “shop” for the potential turbo of choice. Then, using compressor maps (see Chapter 5), determine the turbocharger that has your basic mass-flow and pressure ratio located right in the middle of its highest efficiency. Using that efficiency number, go back through the calculations for mass flow to verify your match.

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Today’s turbocharger compressors will commonly hit efficiencies as high as 78 to 80 percent. But the wide operating RPM band of gasoline engines will operate any given compressor through a wide range of flow efficiencies. Each compressor has areas of varying efficiency called efficiency islands.

Find the nearby compressor map of the Garrett “Disco Potato.” As we can see our 30 lbs/min requirement at max RPM of 6,500 rpm shows up in a nice high efficiency island of about 72 percent, at a 1.7:1 pressure ratio. If we consider the fact that we’re going to be running our wastegate at 10 lbs boost, and that we want full boost at about 4,000 rpm, we can also calculate this point using the same formula as above except we use 4,000 rpm instead of 6,500 rpm. This will calculate about 19 lbs/min at a 1.7:1 pressure ratio, which is also in a high efficiency island over 76 percent. Once you plot both points on the map, you can see that from 4,000 rpm through 6,500 rpm with boost controlled at a 1.7:1 pressure ratio, the turbo will be running around 110,000 rpm turbine speed and it will flow right through the highest efficiency part of the compressor map. This would represent a very good match.

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The trim of a wheel is a ratio used to describe both the turbine and compressor wheels. Trim is used in reference to the basic flow potential of a given wheel’s machining dimensions. Every wheel, both compressor and turbine, may have several trim configurations within that wheel casting. A given compressor wheel casting for example, could be “trimmed” such that it has two, three, or more trim configurations available. It is the trim that determines the wheel’s flow range and pressure characteristics.

Trim is calculated using the inducer and exducer diameters of the wheels. Note that the inducer of the compressor wheel is the smaller inlet diameter where the fresh air is induced into the compressor wheel, while the exducer is at the maximum diameter. The exducer has two primary components, the overall diameter and the tip width, sometimes called the tip height. In a trim calculation, however, the tip height is not part of the trim calculation.

Trim is calculated as:

(Inducer / Exducer) x 100

Example: Inducer diameter = 88mm

Exducer diameter = 117.5mm (88 / 117.5) x 100 = 56 trim

As a rule, as the trim is increased, the wheel can support more mass flow of air. Turbines are typically not as sensitive to flow changes as compressors. Because of this, it’s common for there to be more selections of compressor trims within a turbo model family than turbine trims.

For the most part, compressors with large inducers and smaller exducer diameters will flow large volumes of air (mass flow) at lower pressures, while smaller inducers with larger exducer diameters will flow less mass at slightly higher pressures. A large inducer with a large exducer diameter is a high-pressure, highflow compressor used in competition applications such as tractor pulling.


4.jpg


The trim characteristics of a compressor wheel will greatly influence the compressor map and thus that turbo’s flow potential. An example can be seen in the comparison in maps between the GT2860R and the GT2860RS, on page 66 in Chapter 5. They are very similar turbos from the same family except the 2860R uses a 55 trim while the 2860RS uses a 62 trim. Both compressor wheels are 60mm in diameter, but the 2860RS has about a 3mm larger inducer diameter. So, when tweaking your match and you wish to change compressors, if your pressure ratio is working fine, but you suspect you’re a bit short on air, a larger trim may be what you want, but make sure the trim you are switching to has a larger inducer by comparing the new wheel OD (outside diameter) to your wheel’s OD, if they are the same, but the new wheel has a larger trim, then the inducer is larger and this formula will tell you by how much.

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the math for turbine matching is accurate and specific, but the variables are many and almost never known for sure. The following section on turbines will not necessarily give you a cut and dry manner in which to match a turbine to your engine. It is intended more to increase your comprehension of what is going on inside of a turbine and how to consider adjusting your match for optimum performance.

Perhaps the very best thing you can do for your turbo project is to not forget to place a pressure tap in the turbine inlet just past the turbine foot. Most people only focus on boost, but if all you’re looking at is boost you’re only measuing one side of the equation. You must know your turbine pressure or you’re flying blind. This can be easily accomplished by creating a 1/8-inch pipe tapped hole and installing an air tight fitting as a pressure tap. Run a couple of feet minimum, of steel tubing from the turbine to separate it from the heat of the exhaust before connecting it to a high-temp flexible line. This line will essentially be your “turbine boost gage” line, or actually turbine inlet pressure. You want to make sure that your turbine inlet pressure does not dramatically exceed your boost pressure or you’re developing too much back pressure and killing your power.

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However, done properly, the realistic sizing of the compressor will place you in a model series that will likely have a suitable turbine selection for your application. This is because turbine and compressors are relatively matched in flow range because of the power balance necessary between the compressor and turbine ends of the turbocharger.

While the process of mathematically performing a turbine match is not really logical for an aftermarket application, understanding why and the elements necessary do help in understanding turbines in general.
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Let’s revisit the A/R ratio, or literally, Area divided by Radius. It’s a simple mathematical relationship between the size of the turbine wheel, which dictates the radius, and the throat square area of the turbine housing. You can think of it as a rating of the exhaust gas swallowing capacity of the turbine section. To calculate the A/R ratio the, area of the turbine housing is measured in square inches of a cutting plane line that passes through the turbine’s gas passage at the tip of the tongue, divided by the radius from the center of the turbine wheel’s axis of rotation, to the centroid of the volute.

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Turbine housing designs utilize what is called a free-vortex flow field. In this design, the exhaust gas tangential velocity will vary inversely with radius. The tangential velocity component approaching the wheel tip will have approximately the same value as the wheel tip peripheral velocity. This is why it would be a mistake to assume that the same A/R ratio used in different diameter turbine wheels would have similar volumetric flow patterns. A smaller A/R will raise exhaust pressure but only within that turbine family where the same turbine wheel is used.

Examples:

1) 3-inch area / 3-inch radius = A/R of 1

Versus

2) 1.5-inch area / 1.5-inch radius = A/R of 1

In each of these examples the A/R is “1.” However the volumetric flow capacity of each is dramatically different from the other. Imagine a 3-square-inch orifice feeding a 6 inch diameter turbine as in example 1, versus only a 1.5-inch orifice feeding a 3-inch diameter turbine wheel. In this case it can be easily understood how different the volumetric flow of each combination is, yet the A/R of each turbine is the same. Remember that A/R is only a ratio of the values within a given turbine housing, not the values themselves.

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Lastly, if your turbo selection uses an internally wastegated turbine housing, chances are the turbine trim of the wheel and the choices of turbine housings available have taken the wastegate’s presence into account by allowing exhaust backpressure to rise more quickly for drivability and response since the wastegate is present.

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The wastegate performs a very valuable function. The wastegate is simply a valve that opens the turbine housing to relieve excess exhaust backpressure, triggered by a boost pressure actuator. The actuator is activated by boost pressure fed from the compressor. It is adjusted such that a small turbine housing A/R that provides boost pressure at a low to mid-range RPM, doesn’t over boost as the engine climbs in speed thereby over speeding the turbo and over boosting the engine.

Many off-the-shelf-turbo models will have a wastegate built integral into the turbine housing and that makes your application much easier. However, in-line wastegates are also available on those turbo models where a wastegate is not designed integral to the turbocharger.

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https://www.musclecardiy.com/performance/match-turbocharger-engine-step-step-guide/
https://www.musclecardiy.com/performance/match-turbocharger-engine-step-step-guide/

again, more details at the link. does a good job of selling me on the book listed at the bottom :laughing: i should just buy that :rasta:
 
you would think.. but no.. sometimes it wasn't worth the effort

on my 3rd mustang (my 2nd did low 12s in the quarter) we considered it, but didnt have many choices cuz it was a daily driver.. so I never did that

daily driver, low boost or low gain. not radical stuff maxed out is what is more interesting to me and also what is most difficult to find. because hell, if you are "building" a turbo motor, it doesn't cost much more to get significant gains :laughing:

but if i can get ~400 hp from a 5.3 on my buggy, that'd be neat. if i can get some amount more for my motorhome, that would absolutely be killer :smokin: problem there is i don't really know where i'm starting at
 
What are flanges?

Turbo Flange Chart - Turbo Flange Size Chart | Sinco Customs

neat website with a bunch of dimension (yeah, they are in metric, but otherwise are good) for flanges from T2 through T6


but heck, everybody just says "yeah, she's a T3/4" like we are all supposed to know what a threequarter flange is :homer:

What is a T3/T4 Turbo? | Buy Auto Parts

The T3/4 is a common hybrid turbocharger for custom, high-performance applications. There are different turbine/compressor wheel and bearing options available, but the one thing they have in common is the use of a Garrett T3 exhaust housing, and a larger T4/T04 compressor housing. The smaller exhaust housing (hot side) retains the responsiveness of a small turbo, so it can spool faster. The compressor housing (cold side) of the turbo is a little larger, but not by a lot; this allows it to flow more air without the lag traditionally expected from larger turbos.

While the name and size of the turbo are based on designs originally from Garrett, many manufacturers make their own version of the T3/T4
https://www.buyautoparts.com/blog/what-is-a-t3-t4-turbo/
https://www.buyautoparts.com/blog/what-is-a-t3-t4-turbo/

Oh, that makes sense, two different flanges. because matching flanges would be too easy :flipoff2:
 
article relating to compression ratio

Boost Compression Ratio Chart (rpmoutlet.com)

The compression ratio of your engine has a direct relationship to how much boost you can run. If you have a high compression ratio, such 9.5:1 or 10:1, you will only be able to run a small amount of boost.

The compression ratio that is built into your engine is called "static compression." When you combine the boost you are running in conjunction with your compression ratio, the result is known as the "Effective Compression Ratio." Formulas have been developed that convert your static compression and supercharger boost to the effective compression ratio. Table 1 provides this information.

Click image for larger version Name:	effective-compression-ratio.jpg Views:	0 Size:	61.7 KB ID:	339315


Experience has shown that if you attempt to run more than about a 12:1 effective compression ratio on a street engine with 92 octane pump gas, you will have detonation problems. To some degree, this can be controlled with boost retard devices, but we do not recommend that you set up your engine and supercharger to provide more than a 12:1 effective compression ratio. Please note that all engines differ in their tolerance to detonation. You can build what appear to be two identical engines and one will detonate and the other one won't, so the numbers given in this chart are not absolute hard and fast figures. However, if you follow this chart, you will be close enough that if you do experience some detonation, you should have no trouble controlling it with one of the aftermarket boost retard ignition systems (such as the such as the Holley Ignition P/N 800-450).

Table 1 shows that you obviously can't try to run 10 pounds of boost on a 9.0:1 compression ratio engine. This gives you an effective compression ratio of 15.1:1, way beyond our 12:1 figure. If you are building your engine from scratch, it is a good idea to try to build it with a relatively low compression ratio, such as 7.5 or 8.0:1. It is fairly easy to change the boost to get the best combination of performance and power, but it is extremely difficult to change the compression ratio, especially if you want to lower it. Additionally, you will make more total power with a low compression, high boost engine than you will with a high compression, low boost engine.

What type of fuel do I need with a supercharged automotive or truck engine? The primary issues that determine the type of fuel needed are whether the engine is fuel-injected or carbureted, the compression ratio of the engine, and whether or not the supercharger system is intercooled. For Intercooled ProCharger EFI/TPI applications with compression ratios less than 9.5:1, boost levels of 14-17 psi can be safely run with full timing on pump gas, and will produce horsepower gains of 75-100% (depending upon the boost level and the motor specifications). For 9.5:1 EFI/TPI applications running without an intercooler, boost levels above 5 psi will require the use of ignition/timing retard on pump gas, and will produce horsepower gains of 35-45%. Boost levels above 12 psi should generally be avoided even with racing fuel on a 9.5:1 motor. Of course, lower compression motors will be able to run more boost, and higher compression motors should run less boost, everything else being equal. All Intercooled ProCharger systems for street applications are designed to allow the use of pump gas with full timing and will not affect daily drivability. For carbureted motors, the rules are slightly different. Carburetors deliver the vast majority of fuel in a liquid state, and as this raw fuel atomizes from liquid to gas, a chemical state change actually occurs. Due to this endothermic reaction, which draws heat and cools the incoming air, a carbureted motor can safely handle more boost than a comparable EFI/TPI motor. For carbureted engines with compression ratios of 9:1 or less and boost levels in the 8-14 psi range, pump gasoline works very well. Compression ratios of 10:1 and higher require lower boost levels, higher octane fuel, intercooling, or some combination of the above. Compression ratios in the 7or 8:1 range can usually handle 12-20 psi on pump gasoline.

Click image for larger version Name:	intercooled-compression-ratio-chart.jpg Views:	0 Size:	44.7 KB ID:	339316








CALCULATOR AT LINK

Wallace Racing - Effective Compression Ratio Calculator

This Calculator will figure the effective compression ratio using your inputs.



The effective compression ratio is what the engine sees while running. While the static CR is defined simply by the geometry of the engine, the effictive CR is influenced by multiple factors such as the engine geometry, cam timing, intake pressure, connecting rod length, and volumetric efficiency.

It is the effective CR that determines how much the fluid is actually compressed during engine operating and therefore the minimum octane rating necessary to avoid pre-detonation. This is why some engines require 100+ octane with an 11:1 compression ratio while others are perfectly fine on 91 octane with a 13:1 compression ratio. E-85 has an equivalent octane rating of 105, and with an expected operating temperature of around 180°F, the maximum dynamic CR is slightly above 10.5

To get higher VE% from high performance engines, the camshaft intake valve is usually closed significantly after BDC compared to a 'street' type of engine. This later closing intake point helps contribute to additional cylinder filling using 'ramming' properties of the intake flow.

This later closing point reduces the engine's 'effective compression ratio' to below the static compression ratio.

Basically the piston is traveling up from BDC on the compression stroke when the intake valve is still open. This is effectively bleeding off the compression pressure, while still filling the chamber with fresher air/fuel mixture. (better VE%)

It is basically using a percentage of the compression stroke before it starts compressing the fuel/air mixture!

This 'effective compression ratio' can be lower than the popular 'Dynamic Compression Ratio' however. (or even higher depending on cam data)

It calculates all the effects of the cylinder intake pumping and ramming processes with the trapped air/fuel at the intake closing point.
 
one of the early questions, is what other vehicles have your motor, and how much horsepower do those vehicles have..

turbos and superchargers are usually not the first mod, unless you just have serious bank roll
 
some intercooler primer (and another easy to read starter turbo article)

How To Install Your First Turbocharger on Any Engine (hotrod.com)

Low-compression engines with large turbos made for sluggish, low-rpm street cars that would suddenly wake up for some snap oversteer and wild, smoky fishtails. Just ask anyone who owned an early '70s Porsche 930.

The idea of an efficient engine with a reasonable compression ratio that has good low-speed response and uses enough boost to create real power is possible with an intercooler. The intercooler is simply a heat exchanger that sits between the compressor and the intake to reduce the heat that was added in the process of compressing the air. On the surface, intercooling the air charge allows you to run more boost or run a smaller turbo on an oil-cooled engine. What it is really doing is stabilizing the intake air charge to prevent detonation and expanding the entire compressor map, which allows you to make more power with a smaller engine and less violence. We also recommend an MSD with an adjustable timing curve or a boost references timing control system to avoid rattling the engine.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0907-turbocharged-engine-guide/
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0907-turbocharged-engine-guide/





TurboSaturns.Net (scottjsousa.com)


There seems to be a lot of misconception on intercoolers. Most people understand the basic function of an intercooler but no one seems to have any solid information on choosing the correct size for your application. If you ask someone the question "what size intercooler should I buy?" the normal answer is, "the biggest one that will fit". This kind of solution will work to an extent but if you're interested in pushing the limits of your car's power, it's the attention to details that will put you above the rest. A properly sized intercooler will allow you to increase boost levels while keeping turbo lag to a minimum.

...

Using the table from part one of deciphering turbo compressor maps I converted lbs/min to CFM by dividing lbs/min by .069 This yields the CFM output of Saturn’s 1.9 liter N/A engine.

1.9 Liter Engine
RPMlbs/minCFM
20003.9457.10
30005.9185.65
40007.87114.06
50009.84142.61
600011.81171.16
Now take the CFM above and multiply it by the pressure ratio of your desired boost level.

Pressure Ratios
PsiRatio
121.82
152.02
182.22
Example:
171.16 x 2.22 = 379.98 CFM uncorrected*

This shows that at 6000rpm and 18psi the turbo is producing an uncorrected* 379.98CFM
*By uncorrected CFM I mean that we have not made adjustments for ambient air temperature, adiabatic efficiency (A/E), or air density ratio.


Now, using part two of the article deciphering turbo compressor maps find the air density ratio at an ambient temperature of your choice and multiply it by the turbo’s uncorrected airflow value.

Example:
379.98 x 1.49* = 566.20CFM (corrected*)

*Air Density Ratio using 80oF, 74% A/E, and 18psi

Corrected Turbo Airflow Output in CFM

80oF and 74% A/E
RPM12psi15psi18psi
2000135.09161.51188.94
3000202.72242.26283.32
4000269.80322.60377.25
5000337.43403.36471.62
6000404.88484.11566.20
90oF and 74% A/E
RPM12psi15psi18psi
2000134.05159.20186.41
3000201.17238.80279.51
4000267.72318.00372.19
5000334.84397.60465.29
6000401.77477.20558.60
You can see that there is a trend developing between the two tables. As the ambient temperature goes up less air is being pumped into the engine, which makes sense since air because less dense as the temperature rises.


Below is a graph of a Spearco bar and plate intercooler (part # 2-116). This intercooler has a flow rating of 645 CFM and can support 430 HP. The intercooler's dimensions are 13.6W x 11.75H x 3.5D. The data points below reflect 6000rpm values taken from the corrected turbo airflow table above (80°F and 74% A/E). The scale on the right hand side of the graph measures pressure drop across the core while intercooler efficiency at 5, 10, 15, 20mph is measure on the left hand side. On the bottom of the graph is engine size. The engine size may confuse you a bit. The Saturn has a 1.9liter engine but looking at the graph we did not plot any of our data points even close to that engine size. Turbo charging an engine artificially increases the CID of the engine. So, instead of focusing on the engine size it is more important to look at CFM.

intercooler.gif


In this example we will consider the green line which represents the efficiency of the intercooler boosting 15psi or 484CFM. On the graph there are two lines, a dotted line and a solid line. The intersecting point between these two lines, at the 90-degree elbow, is the corrected CFM data point calculated from above. Drawing a straight line down from this point will show approximate CID (220), Liters (3.7), and CFM (484) of the engine. The green horizontal doted line shows about a .9psi drop across the intercooler core at 15psi. The solid vertical green line is intersected several times by black lines each having a mph designation. These intersections show the core efficiency, on the left-hand side, at the given mph. At the intersection of these lines you can draw a line to the left and find the core efficiency. For example, at 10mph the core efficiency is .70 or 70%.

Solving for the corrected turbo airflow output of your turbo and then plotting the data on a graph will help you to reduce intercooler induced turbo lag brought on by a larger than required intercooler. By the same token it will save you from heat soaking to small of an intercooler.


I'll leave you with a few points to consider when choosing an intercooler
• Don't go overboard on the intercooler size. This can induce intercooler lag, which is created when the turbo has to fill the large space within the intercooler before it reaches the engine.
• Route the intercooler piping so it has the shortest distance between the turbo and the throttle body.
• Mount the intercooler where it can receive a fresh supply of air that passes directly over the fins.
• Make sure you have room for the intercooler. Measure everything before you order so that it will fit.
• Keep pressure drops across the core to a minimum. Anything under 1.5psi at full boost is considered good.
• It's better to have an intercooler with more height than width. This means that the flow through the intercooler is vertical not horizontal. (height is the charge side)
https://scottjsousa.com/tsn/articles/intercoolerSizing.htm
https://scottjsousa.com/tsn/articles/intercoolerSizing.htm
 
Build a Blow-Through Carb for Less Than $50 (hotrod.com)

not applicable to most 4x4 and offroad crowd, but HotRod modified a regular carb to become a blow through carb. pretty awesome from a DIY stance considering NEW carbs are 500-600 and blow through carbs are 800-1200 while used carbs are 100-300 and used blow through are 800 still :laughing:

After building a blow-through carb, consulting the expert on its operation, and testing one on an engine dyno up to 600 hp, do we recommend building your own blow-through carb? You better believe it. With $47.95 in parts invested in the carb, this is one frugal way to get your engine ready for boost. To be fair, if your ride isn't Holley-powered from the get go, you'll need to buy one. A new carb like ours sells for $462.95 on Summit Racing, but we've never been to swap meet that wasn't swarming with carbs ripe for the picking.


...


The Review


We knew our carb worked, based on dyno data, but could it have been better—did we miss an important step? To find out, we asked Van Noy if there was more to a proper blow-through carb than the simple changes we made.

"Those are the most basic mods, kind of what everybody does," Van Noy said. "They usually work well in the lower power ranges," which Van Noy classifies as between 500 to 600 hp—right where our test engine lived.
Power Valves


Past that horsepower level, extra attention becomes necessary to the power valve. Unlike the main jets—which meter fuel in direct response to airflow through the venturis/boosters—a power valve, via manifold vacuum, actually responds to engine load. However, under boost, their job becomes a little muddied.

On CSU carbs, Van Noy utilizes a special "boost-referenced" power valve that—you guessed it—doesn't open until boost hits. These can be adjusted to activate at different boost levels, tailoring the fuel curve appropriately. Also, CSU uses a screw-in restrictor for the power valve channels that makes adjusting them far easier than drilling out a stock metering block.

"Above about 15 pounds, boost pressure in the float bowls can overpower a standard power valve and cause it to close," Van Noy said. He also stresses the use of a wideband air/fuel gauge to monitor exactly what the carb is doing.
Fuel Flow


At higher horsepower levels, flow through the carburetor is also an issue, according to Van Noy. "At about 1,200 horsepower on pump gas, a single needle can't flow enough fuel," he said. "On E85, it's about 800 to 900 horsepower." The solution is moving up to a float bowl with dual needles and seats.
Check-Ball Removal


Van Noy touched on a subject that we hadn't yet heard of. On many—especially newer 4150-series carbs—Holley installed a check-ball that protects the power valve against backfires. "That check-ball can get pushed up by boost, which seals off the power valve feed," Van Noy said. "Then, boost from the float bowl can work against the power valve and shut it, which leans everything out." The remedy is to remove the power valve check-ball (photo 10). "If you're having backfires big enough to hurt the power valve, you have bigger problems."
Carburetor Hats


The best blow-through carb on the market is absolutely useless with a bad carb hat on top of it. Van Noy warns against low-profile hats, especially those that ask the air to turn at a really tight angle. "They choke down the air and don't let it smoothly blow into the venturis," he said. Staying inline with our budget in check, we bought a Spectre single-plenum intake (PN 9849) from Amazon, along with our turbo kit. It is 3.5 inches tall and has a 4-inch inlet. Van Noy is familiar with this hat and has found them to work well. Don't confuse it with PN 98499, which is a low-profile version that does not work well at all!
 
Help me out here :laughing: trying to write stuff down for future reference and haven't seen a thread here on Irate about it.

Hell, just drop a link and some comments from various places around the web of MFG information

1) How do you pick a HP target?

2) how do you measure and size a turbo, so that you can pick one out from a catalog or whatever

3) flanges, are they all the same?

4) what's the deal with boost/relief pressure stuff?

5) is there a general rule of thumb for when you are going to obviously destroy your motor? is there a "safe" and conservative volume?

6) Intercoolers?

7) what's a complete setup look like?

lot's of questions, for a great many answers. If you generally know the answers, but want to know what specific motor i'm looking at, pick one you already own and talk about that as an example :)

rules of thumb and dyno charts are acceptable and not required

Just lining out the absolute basics that most probably know, but some may not. I'm looking to learn as well.

1) as much as possible, obviously :flipoff2:​​​​​​

Really though, when just adding a turbo to an engine for most of us, we just want "more" whatever that is, I how much we want. Mostly referring to budget turbo in a crawler.

2) I'm still trying to figure this out 100%, usually the wheels are measured in mm, but then there is also the a/r which refers to the size of the exhaust housing.

3) T3, T4 is probably all you'd use on most any crawler application. Unless you go with the newer V band stuff, or a junk yard turbo that uses an od all flange.

4) people confuse waste gate and blow off valves all the time, they are very different.

Waste gate is just bypassing exhaust gas around the turbo to limit boost. Usually controlled by a spring, then fine tuned with vacuum(boost line) or by computer on fancy stuff.

Blow off valve is mounted to the intake and just releases pressure when there is a spike from letting off the throttle under boost.

5) I'm probably not the best one to answer this, but from what I've read, around 6 lbs is "safe" on most stock engines that came n/a.

6) usually not much benefit when running low boost like 6 lbs. I'm not sure what level they become more beneficial or even a necessity, but much over 6 I'd add it to the parts list.

​​​​​​7)tbt :flipoff2:
 
from the hot rod link a couple posts above, they reference a "turbonetics" engineer, which is now PT Turbo. Their website is handy because they list turbo charts for what they sell, making things easier to understand :smokin:

Select the turbo with a compressor map that puts the two plotted points between 65 and 70 percent efficiency for a street application. To get the pressure ratio, simply add the amount of boost in psi to standard atmospheric pressure (14.7) and divide it by 14.7. We will use 10 psi because it is nearing the threshold of safety for a nonintercooled pump gas engine. The pressure ratio for a 302-inch engine at 6,000 rpm is 1.68.


Looking at a compressor map, it is possible to make the mistake of simply multiplying the total engine CFM by the pressure ratio to get the corrected mass airflow and connecting the dots. The truth is that the corrected mass airflow number is a result of several complex calculations involving air density, pressure ratio, engine CFM, and even air density at boost. If you do manage to get through the math, you'll note that the final piece of the puzzle is the efficiency of the compressor itself determined by a table.


The shortcut to all this is what Turbonetics engineer Dave Austin calls tribal knowledge. Look at what other guys are doing and see if it works or simply call a reputable turbo company to get some suggestions. Turbonetics, for example, has a matrix of its popular turbo categorized by engine size and horsepower based on years of trial and error.

example:

https://ptturbo.com/shop?olsPage=products/xn-garrett-gt2052-iva

Horsepower: 140 - 230

Displacement: 1.4L - 2.0L
 
roughly determining required fuel based on horsepower (brake specific fuel consumption BSFC)

http://blog.cantonracingproducts.com...ines_fuel_flow

Brake-Specific Fuel Consumption

To start the calculations for fuel consumption we use the BSFC (Brake-Specific Fuel Consumption) for the fuel being used. BSFC measures the amount of fuel needed per horsepower per hour. Fuel is measured in pounds instead of gallons.

Listed below are the BSFC ranges for average efficiency Gas, E85 & Methanol engines at their peak hp output. An engine's BSFC can vary depending on load and RPM, these rates aim to represent the peak horsepower environment.

The unit of measure here is lbs / hp / hr.
Gasoline .45 - .50
E85 .63 - .70
Methanol .90 - 1.0

You can used these BSFC values to calculate the fuel requirements for various horsepower levels. The above BSFC number tell us that our gasoline engine requires .50 lb of fuel per horsepower per hour. Said another way, we know for each horsepower our gas engine creates we will need .50 lbs of fuel per hour.

Expressed as a formula it looks like this:

Given Horsepower x .50 lb fuel/hp = lbs of fuel for given horsepower

To calculate Fuel Consumption for a 400 hp Gas engine with a BSFC of .50 lbs/hp/hr:
400 hp x .50 = 200 lbs/hr

To convert this lbs/hr to a more meaningful gallons per hour we use the conversion rate from lbs to gallons which is 6.25 lbs to 1 gallon of gas
200 lbs/hr / 6.25 lbs/gal = 32 gph


http://www.1728.org/mtrair.htm

air flow to horsepower handy online calculator

cubic feet per minute = 0.08 lbs per minute

using the calculator, 400 HP is about 277 CFM is about 22.16 LBS per Min, so now we can use that to get the "two reference points" for the turbo charts above.

i.e. pick your boost ratio of 6psi

6+14.7=20.7

20.7/14.7=1.408

if we think 6 psi will get us 400 HP, then we would need a turbo chart that lands 1.408 and 22.16 within the ~70% region of it's graph

https://ptturbo.com/shop?olsPage=pro...0rs-twa&page=2

this turbo chart shows that being on the lower right corner island of about 60 or 65% efficiency. it would work, but there is probably better stuff out there.





THIS LINK IS AWESOME!!!!!!

https://racingcalcs.com/psi-boost-fo...et-calculator/

this calculator is pretty f'n awesome actually. You can use it to approximate your STOCK engine VE actually

Input you current engine displacement, stock dyno chart peak HP RPM and peak BHP, then adjust the VE number until it calculates a "boost psi" of about 0.0


https://www.460ford.com/threads/stoc...-tests.103849/

429-SCJ circa 1970: "375hp" or was it "370hp"
Computed Torq 480 at 3700
Computed Power 405 at 5000

using those numbers, this 429 is about 88% VE :smokin:

a stock smog motor Ford 400 with stock low flow carb/heads/intake made

265HP at 4100 RPM for about 75.5% VE.

the volumetric efficiency is a measure of the efficiency of the engine moving the intake charge into the chamber and the exhaust out. Typical values are as follows:

2 valve head – 80%

4 valve head – 88%

it is not unusual however to have VE’s of 95% or more in correctly built race engines

so it is pretty obvious that restrictive designs and low air flow not only reduce the ability to spin at high RPM, they effectively cut VE over 10%, which is very significant :laughing: this matters for turbo charging, because VE is used in all the maths, and improving VE is the goal.

if we wanted to get that same Ford 400 up to the 429 SCJ numbers, we would need to run 10 PSI of boost if we still peak at 4100 RPM and 5 PSI of boost if we are able to get it to peak at 5000 RPM almost entirely due to the poor starting VE.
 
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The Golden Rule of Turbos

With all that said, here is the single most important consideration where turbo engineering is concerned: boost itself is irrelevant, airflow is everything. High boost pressures mean nothing if you're only using them to compensate for terrible airflow through the cylinder head, and your quest for power will ultimately hit a thermal wall if you don't build the engine itself first. Airflow through your cylinder heads, and intake and exhaust manifolds will have an exponential effect once boost hit the engine, so building an engine right in the first place will allow you to run a few pounds less boost while maintaining the same horsepower and torque levels. That means a cooler, longer-lasting and more octane-tolerant engine that still produces the power you want.




Applying the Golden Rule

Consider this scenario: A novice engine builder and a seasoned pro are competing to do a turbo buildup on an engine that makes 200 horsepower in stock form. The goal is to make 500 horsepower. The novice's approach might be to simply bolt a massive turbo to the engine, one with enough juice to produce 21.4 psi of boost pressure (200 x 0.07 = 14 horsepower per pound of boost). These extremely high boost pressures would necessitate a massive, slow-spooling turbo, an intercooler, 114-octane race gas and maybe even a water spray system to keep the engine together. The more experienced builder would port his cylinder heads, install a larger camshaft and bolt on a free-flowing intake to bring naturally-aspirated power up to about 250. Now, horsepower per pound of boost is up to 17.5, so he only needs 14.2 psi of pressure to get to 500 horsepower. From here, the wise builder can use a quicker-spooling, more efficient turbo, a smaller intercooler to enhance boost response and can run his beast on the street with 93 octane fuel. Even better, if said builder wanted to run race gas and crank the boost 21.4 psi for track day, he'd end up with an extra 126 horsepower over his bolt-on wonderboy rival. Feh...kids.


https://itstillruns.com/horsepower-vs-boost-pressure-10009983.html

https://itstillruns.com/pick-correct-turbocharger-size-4436563.html

another "walk through" that uses the most simple math and explanations that I've found yet and also touches on the notion that everything you would do to make an NA engine good is also good for the FI motor
 
Blower Basics (Part 2): Boost and What You Need to Know - OnAllCylinders

So what is safe boost?

For street engines running on 92 octane gasoline, you should keep your effective compression to 12.0:1 or below, according to Weiand. Once you exceed the 12.0:1 effective compression mark, detonation begins to become more likely. Naturally, you can attempt to control detonation with boost retards and other modifications, but Weiand recommends you stay below or near the 12.0:1 range to make any detonation problems as manageable as possible.

this makes it sound like you don't boost referenced timing retard unless you are running whatever will give you an effective CR above 12:1, which is interesting and nice if true. save about $500 or so by sticking with a vac advance dist. and a little bit of base timing retard. sure, power gain tradeoffs, but for "more than stock and cheaper than full tilt bilt" that's a good tradeoff to make, in my opinion.

Set initial ignition timing at 6 to 10 degrees BTDC. The distributor advance curve should be calibrated to give a total advance of 28 to 34 degrees by 2,500 rpm. If detonation is encountered, a boost/retard system that works with manifold vacuum and pressure is recommended. It is also a good idea to run your spark plugs one or two heat ranges colder than normal with a blower to reduce the chances of detonation.

Keep in mind, these are general suggestions–there are no hard and fast rules. Bottom line is you can benefit from supercharging a stock, mild, or wild engine with the right tuning and modifications.

later in the same article, and they mention staying 3-5psi and under 5k rpm for cast stock pistons/crank/rods, which is think is a pretty reasonable ask for the vast majority of people looking for "cheap and better"
 
I'm still wondering why you mentioned forced induction.. which wouldnt help on rocks or in mud..

edit: maybe you meant something other than ram air??

everything helps in the mud, but i bring it up because i think about it every few years and do a bunch of reading and then forget a bunch of stuff :homer:


tubro's are great for crawlers that see street time and tow rigs and even motor homes :rasta: principle is the same all over the place. figuring if it is worth $2k to put a turbo on stock heads or put $2k into aftermarket heads is always a fun discussion as well.
 
everything helps in the mud, but i bring it up because i think about it every few years and do a bunch of reading and then forget a bunch of stuff :homer:


tubro's are great for crawlers that see street time and tow rigs and even motor homes :rasta: principle is the same all over the place. figuring if it is worth $2k to put a turbo on stock heads or put $2k into aftermarket heads is always a fun discussion as well.


i forgot that forced induction is not the same as ram air.. and then I remembered and deleted my post..
 
later in the same article, and they mention staying 3-5psi and under 5k rpm for cast stock pistons/crank/rods, which is think is a pretty reasonable ask for the vast majority of people looking for "cheap and better"

Yesterday I was really close to telling you "screw doing it "right", do that" based on the kinds of stuff you wind up owning and budget you wind up building to.
 
You can find the answers to most, if not all, of your questions in the book;
Maximum Boost
by Corky Bell.
I’ve read it dozens of times and pick up a tidbit everytime I read it.
OOPS. Missed above post by ‘chkn’. Apologies!
 
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You can find the answers to most, if not all, of your questions in the book;
Maximum Boost
by Corky Bell.
I’ve read it dozens of times and pick up a tidbit everytime I read it.
OOPS. Missed above post by ‘chkn’. Apologies!

don't ever apologize! :beer:

if that is THE book, then even better. there are dozens and dozens of 'turbo' books out there it seems, the more support for 1 over the other for a starting place the better.
 
Yesterday I was really close to telling you "screw doing it "right", do that" based on the kinds of stuff you wind up owning and budget you wind up building to.

here is a question that's probably right up your alley :flipoff2:

none, and i do mean none, of the turbo maps i've been able to find are in any way charting 3-7 psi stuff for a 300 cubic inch + engine. damn near everything is way off on the bottom right, bottom left, or at 6k rpm WOT they might just touch the base of a 70%+ efficiency island.

does that actually just translate to the efficiency dropping off (let's say, to 50%) and won't actually cause things to be unhappy or damaged? building something low power would much rather toss efficiency out the window over price and backpressure and detonation. is it more important to just find a turbo that will support 1.4 ratio and whatever CFM at 2000 rpm in addition to 1.4 and 5k rpm?

i think i'm having a hard time reading the island maps, or maybe not and i'm just confusing myself
 
I am in no way a turbo guy. It's been a long time since I've had the numbers and theory fresh in my mind but you really don't want to force more air through a turbo than it's intended to have that just builds stupid amounts of heat.

Many people have used turbos off of 90s diesel trucks to make respectable power on 80s and 90s smallblocks and you can get a HX35 in damn near any configuration for any power level. I would start there.
 
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