Track kick doublers? Anyone still making them?

[SLOWPOKE693]

I'd would gladly have paid 7K for that last year, I spent 4 months looking pretty hard and every single one was over priced piles of shit.

It was well the money when the first two owners sold it off. Neither one really used it and both kept it OCD clean. I really should have bought it when it was offered to me but I already had a crawler I hardly used and didn't need a second one to park next to it. The third owner was young and probably destroyed it in the woods.


It had all the right parts in it and some extremely unique axles. I still have all the build pictures from back then on a memory stick, maybe one of these days I'll post a build thread in the Zuk section.




First day on the trails up in NH fresh out of the shop.

 

[Adamwende]

When I’m whining about having to run 9” diffs to get the right gear ratio remember your above statement

there’s no way it isn’t cheaper to go with two 9” diffs than it is for me to buy a RingR, a W56, two Toyota transfer cases, one set of 4.7’s, a way to mount them and all new drive shafts. None of which is readily available to me.

Not to mention that the right gears in the differential has a lot less parasitic loss than a range box left in low range all the time.

I think my 9 inch axles running 6.50 gears is the reason my stock Dana 300 survives so well. I’m sure I’ll break one day...

 

[YotaAtieToo]

“Right” axle gears being 6.xx+ ? That is less than 5% of the Toyota crew. I remember when the group i wheel with started going to 1 tons and it was blown cases left and right with 4.xx gears. Most wound up with 5.38’s because of 14 bolts and it helped, but they still broke cases every 1-2 yrs

Right as in for the tire size. <37s ~5.29 some get by with 5.38’s and 40s, but anything 42+ should have 6.xx-7.xx

When I’m whining about having to run 9” diffs to get the right gear ratio remember your above statement

there’s no way it isn’t cheaper to go with two 9” diffs than it is for me to buy a RingR, a W56, two Toyota transfer cases, one set of 4.7’s, a way to mount them and all new drive shafts. None of which is readily available to me.

Not to mention that the right gears in the differential has a lot less parasitic loss than a range box left in low range all the time.

I wasn't saying to go RingR at all, I was responding to someone say they are shorter than a Sami trans and case. Toyota cases only make sense in really what they came in, the more adapters you buy, the less sense it makes. I can't believe marlin is still pushing the same case for the 2016+ Tacomas.

A friend of mine runs a toy based buggy with 1 tons with 5.38’s and 39” stickies. He splits the aluminum cases all the time. The case halves split right through the bearing pockets, It’s f&cking pathetic.

What motor?

​​​​​​​Why is he wasting time putting the same shit back in "all the time"? Not like it's easy to swap case housings.

 

[JR4X]

What motor?

Why is he wasting time putting the same shit back in "all the time"? Not like it's easy to swap case housings.

22RE, W56
He says he’s got too much invested to switch now. Doubled, all the goodies like marlin shafts, 4.7 gears twin sticks, rear disconnect for front digs.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Cryo the case halfs....

 

[YotaAtieToo]

22RE, W56
He says he’s got too much invested to switch now. Doubled, all the goodies like marlin shafts, 4.7 gears twin sticks, rear disconnect for front digs.

There is the AA HD crawl box castings if he hasn't done that already.

I'm not a Toyota case fan Boi by any means, they aren't a bad option for some. Once you add up all the adapters and chromo shit, often it makes more sense to go atlas from the jump.

Is he one of those toyota guys who puts it in low low 1st and then revs it to 4k RPM to go faster?

 

[JR4X]

There is the AA HD crawl box castings if he hasn't done that already.

I'm not a Toyota case fan Boi by any means, they aren't a bad option for some. Once you add up all the adapters and chromo shit, often it makes more sense to go atlas from the jump.

Is he one of those toyota guys who puts it in low low 1st and then revs it to 4k RPM to go faster?

You could say that. We call him rev-it-Ralph.
https://youtu.be/99QSpvyR4w0

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

When I’m whining about having to run 9” diffs to get the right gear ratio remember your above statement

there’s no way it isn’t cheaper to go with two 9” diffs than it is for me to buy a RingR, a W56, two Toyota transfer cases, one set of 4.7’s, a way to mount them and all new drive shafts. None of which is readily available to me.

Not to mention that the right gears in the differential has a lot less parasitic loss than a range box left in low range all the time.

I agree. While gearing options are ideal for a 9", it seems like alot of work and overkill to fit in the front of a stockish kick.

A 1.25:1 portal box for the front would be an awesome setup. Rzr portals run ~$3k, so not sure that would be the best option, cost wise.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

22RE, W56
He says he’s got too much invested to switch now. Doubled, all the goodies like marlin shafts, 4.7 gears twin sticks, rear disconnect for front digs.

Pretty much half the crew I wheel with is in this current situation as well including myself. We're all over invested (seems to happen more often if you build your rig while you wheel it as compared to starting a build from scratch where the cost of yota duals would be cancelled out by an atlas from the get go.)

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

Jr4x, I don't know how worried I'd be about buying adapters. They've always sold off quick once I was done with them and they hold value. The "loss" I suffered would only end up equaling a couple hundred dollars for a few seasons of use. Thats all if you could keep it in working order obviously. :rolleyes:

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Was googling and came across this thread, for some reason this underdrive popped into my head.

Zuwharrie

The world's best Suzuki Samurai offroad forum! Also included are the Geo Tracker, Sidekick, Vitara, and even the occasional Jeep or Toyota!

bbs.zuwharrie.com

Of course it's not on their website, but 1:5:1 would be about perfect. As mentioned 4.30, 4.62, 4.88 and 5.12 are fairly common.

Tuns the weak stock 1.8:1 low into a great trail gear (2.7) then you can get the 3.0 or 4.24 gears as well.

Maybe call them and see if they will still make them?

 

[PointsNorth]

Same site different thread from 2011

Brent hasn't had good luck with the undertaker, tolerances in the case caused all kinds of problems with it like vibration and noise. He had to find a machine shop that would do a better job of it. I had the chance to take a look at one in Petroworks shop and from what I saw I would not buy one. There are no locating pins in the case the bearing were too small and the bearing were not pressed into the case so if a bearing went bad it would spin in the case and ruin the case.

Idont know if they ever got it working right

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Same site different thread from 2011

Brent hasn't had good luck with the undertaker, tolerances in the case caused all kinds of problems with it like vibration and noise. He had to find a machine shop that would do a better job of it. I had the chance to take a look at one in Petroworks shop and from what I saw I would not buy one. There are no locating pins in the case the bearing were too small and the bearing were not pressed into the case so if a bearing went bad it would spin in the case and ruin the case.

Idont know if they ever got it working right

Well that's dumb. They seem to constantly come out with some new fancy product and then it's gone.

A shift able ~1.5:1 box like that would be a huge help to all the track kick guys who are running 5.xx gears and really need 6.xx-7.xx.

 

[JR4X]

A shift able ~1.5:1 box like that would be a huge help to all the track kick guys who are running 5.xx gears and really need 6.xx-7.xx.

I would kill for something like that that was reliable. I’m still bouncing around possible ideas for my build. I don’t even know if I need it to be shiftable. 1.5 would be perfect for me.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I would kill for something like that that was reliable. I’m still bouncing around possible ideas for my build. I don’t even know if I need it to be shiftable. 1.5 would be perfect for me.

Not shift able would turn it into a Sami case basically.

Which is probably what you should do.

 

[JR4X]

Not shift able would turn it into a Sami case basically.

Which is probably what you should do.

I’ve done that before and wasn’t 100% pleased with it. That said, do you have a sammy case for sale? Or know anyone who does?

Edit: my high range is unusable as is and I want to go to bigger tires. The only reason I’d ever need the range box to shift would be if I wanted 4.24:1 low instead of 6.36. But iirc nobody running 6.5’s ever seems to wish they had a mid low range with these little no torque having 1.6’s.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I’ve done that before and wasn’t 100% pleased with it. That said, do you have a sammy case for sale? Or know anyone who does?

Edit: my high range is unusable as is and I want to go to bigger tires. The only reason I’d ever need the range box to shift would be if I wanted 4.24:1 low instead of 6.36. But iirc nobody running 6.5’s ever seems to wish they had a mid low range with these little no torque having 1.6’s.

Weren't most of your problems shift related?

I don't have one for sale.

With the age of these cases now, having just done a 6.4 install and needing all new bearings and outputs, next time I'll just buy a complete case from trail Tough. I bet if you did that, you would be fine. What size tires?

Depends on use, I felt stuck between high and low on my first Sami with 6.4s and stock axle gears. Maybe with ~4.88+ high would have been more useful. My current Sami has a 4.16 case, which is perfect for 95% of my use that isn't rock crawling. Plan is 4.88s which will probably be great. If I do a full rock crawling trip, I'll swap in the 6.4 case. This is also with the less than zero tq 1.3. Having the 1.5 high and 5.12? Gears may just be the in between you need.

 

[JR4X]

Weren't most of your problems shift related?

Having the 1.5 high and 5.12? Gears may just be the in between you need.

It’s got issues now for sure. Got stuck in 4 low, took apart put it back together. Now it pops into neutral from any range and you can’t hold the shifter hard enough to even move the car. You have to cut a hole in the floor under the passenger seat. Custom bend the shifter to fit in the hole. 3 custom length driveshafts. Cut a cross member out of the frame. Bend the fuel and brake lines. Build a t-case bucket and weld plate the frame where it attaches to.

Sucks cuz the gearing seemed pretty spot on. 8V 3 speed automatic 4.9:1 trail tough gears with 5.12’s in the diffs for 30” tires. It just doesn’t seem worth that amount of work on top of all the other work needed to clear 34’s or 35’s.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

It’s got issues now for sure. Got stuck in 4 low, took apart put it back together. Now it pops into neutral from any range and you can’t hold the shifter hard enough to even move the car. You have to cut a hole in the floor under the passenger seat. Custom bend the shifter to fit in the hole. 3 custom length driveshafts. Cut a cross member out of the frame. Bend the fuel and brake lines. Build a t-case bucket and weld plate the frame where it attaches to.

Sucks cuz the gearing seemed pretty spot on. 8V 3 speed automatic 4.9:1 trail tough gears with 5.12’s in the diffs for 30” tires. It just doesn’t seem worth that amount of work on top of all the other work needed to clear 34’s or 35’s.

"Worth it" is obviously subjective. It sucks to do all the work, but once it's done, the rig is way more enjoyable. There is no real easy route, especially if you want to stay ifs.

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

I believe that we have talked about this before, maybe it was the other site.... what about doubling the kick case and locking it in low range, similar to an "undertaker"? I want to say someone mentioned why that wouldnt work, but memory and searching are not working this morning.

 

[JR4X]

I believe that we have talked about this before, maybe it was the other site.... what about doubling the kick case and locking it in low range, similar to an "undertaker"? I want to say someone mentioned why that wouldnt work, but memory and searching are not working this morning.

I believe you are correct and it was the old place. I think it was MannySouza that had an undertaker and iirc it was noisey and the case ran really Hot.

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

I believe you are correct and it was the old place. I think it was MannySouza that had an undertaker and iirc it was noisey and the case ran really Hot.

The more I have thought about this, the more I think a geared portal hub would be close to ideal. Basically the same thing that is done on a sxs to get deeper gearing and more clearance. I have looked at ones for sxs, to try and figure out if they can be adapted vs having to start over. I feel like it is a possibility, but currently arent willing to spend the $$ on a set just to experiment.

 

[JR4X]

The more I have thought about this, the more I think a geared portal hub would be close to ideal. Basically the same thing that is done on a sxs to get deeper gearing and more clearance. I have looked at ones for sxs, to try and figure out if they can be adapted vs having to start over. I feel like it is a possibility, but currently arent willing to spend the $$ on a set just to experiment.

I’ve thought about this a lot. It would be easy for me to do the SXS portals on my build as planned. SATV just came out with another new generation portal with 2 idler gears effectively doubling their strength in the same size package. But man is that a lot of money to spend on a $700 dollar tracker.

I’m battling the money and time it would take to build this thing forward. When for the money I’ll have tied up in it I could probably buy a 4 seat Teryx Ranger or Defender SXS and be on the trail tomorrow. I have more money than time and my time is precious. Not enough money that I can pay people to build stuff for me however.

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

I’ve thought about this a lot. It would be easy for me to do the SXS portals on my build as planned. SATV just came out with another new generation portal with 2 idler gears effectively doubling their strength in the same size package. But man is that a lot of money to spend on a $700 dollar tracker.

I’m battling the money and time it would take to build this thing forward. When for the money I’ll have tied up in it I could probably buy a 4 seat Teryx Ranger or Defender SXS and be on the trail tomorrow. I have more money than time and my time is precious. Not enough money that I can pay people to build stuff for me however.

Agreed. I am in a similar boat, myself. Difference here, is these rigs arent $500-1k anymore. Most of them are now in the $2-3k range around here, which makes the situation worse. NC also just passed a bill that will allow driving SxS on the road, which was one of the biggest reasons I liked the zuk.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

The sxs portals are only like 1.2:1, unless you go with the giant 6 or 8" ones. A lot of work and money to adapt them to something like a sidekick.

I still really want to put a set on a pair of Sami axles. Run 35x10 sxs stickies.

The other option is a Landover lt230 case. Basically a Sami case on steroids. What's sweet is there is like 5-8 different options for high range, from 1.1:1 to 1.7:1 iirc. There is a company that makes a kick to D300 and a Company that makes a jeep 23 spline/round 6 to lt230 adapter, but again, cost.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Or run the kick to D300 with a 1.5:1 atlas

 

[arse_sidewards]

because Toyota guys insist on running 1/2 ton parts under 1 ton trucks.

"but you see, it was technically rated to haul ~2000lb on a continent where it's acceptable to have no margin for error and break shit on the daily"

 

[arse_sidewards]

I never tried a samurai doubler because the collar splines wearing out was such a problem.

I'm not familiar with the cases in question but what's the bearing support situation for the shafts? A plate with a single ball bearing (or cylindrical roller) that supports the collar in the middle could result in longevity going from fuck all to not a problem.

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

I'm not familiar with the cases in question but what's the bearing support situation for the shafts? A plate with a single ball bearing (or cylindrical roller) that supports the collar in the middle could result in longevity going from fuck all to not a problem.

I want to say, the ones I have seen did not have a support bearing. Basically a collar that slides over the kick output and sami input, inside the adapter. Similar to what you might see in a chevy tcase adapter, but not a factory option.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I want to say, the ones I have seen did not have a support bearing. Basically a collar that slides over the kick output and sami input, inside the adapter. Similar to what you might see in a chevy tcase adapter, but not a factory option.

How are the shafts the collar is connecting being supported. Single bearing each? Single bearing and pocket bearing?

If they're not supported well on both ends then they're gonna move around. For a single male/female shaft pair with a long spline section this can result in tolerable misalignment but double the splines and double the slop and everything is going to wear more.