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SxS general discussion thread

I can tell you from experience Honda is the worst company to try to get anything warrantied through. Polaris is pretty great as long as your dealer is worth a damn. Honda's are tough but they're slow. Even the detuned 1000-S RZR's will run off and hide from them. The Can Am's run pretty good but I haven't been terribly impressed with their hardware.
 
I drive by this dealer occasionally and they’ve had these new units sitting all year. I’d bet a person could negotiate a few grand off these prices.

IMG_3123.jpeg
 
Tin Roof said:
I drive by this dealer occasionally and they’ve had these new units sitting all year. I’d bet a person could negotiate a few grand off these prices.

IMG_3123.jpeg
Click to expand...

I'll be watching these, and get more aggressive later in the year. Ideally new years eve :laughing:

Or hold out for a nice low hour machine private party, prices are coming down.

Next time I'm in town I'll swing by the kawasaki dealer just to see what's what.

I'm still salty about all the bullshit add ons
 
Yeah the manufacturers are over producing for whatever reason and sales have slowed down, good rebates out there for some stuff.
 
Tin Roof said:
I figured I'd start a thread for random general discussion in case anyone has something that doesn't fit in an existing thread, or don't feel like what they want to discuss warrants a new thread. Kind of a GCC thread for the SxS/UTV guys.

I picked up a new 2-seat Commander XTP last fall and have my '21 Commander max xt 4-seat for sale. I've had a fair amount of interest in it, but there's one guy that offered to trade me for his '21 x3 DS turbo 2-seat with 1600 miles on it. I really don't need 2 machines, but the kid in me likes the thought of having a 200hp turbo unit for trail riding.... :laughing:
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Can you help me confirm my suspicions.

I like everything about the Commander XT P except the price...

So is the machines core the same as the Maverick Trail, Sport etc. ?
I am playing around with the idea of buying used Commander Suspension or Super ATV arms and converting my 800 trail to a 62"-64" width.
Yes it's gonna need axles and all sorts of other BS to make it happen but if I find the stuff on Ebay I can get it all somewhat affordably.

I'd like to get some 31" tires and corresponding suspension travel. Probably put forged pistons in it and a turbo to up the power.

Of course I should sell the trail and buy a XT P but if can't get but $7k or $8k for my trail might as well build a "better" machine for my use (altitude) instead of doubling the investment into a new one. I make bad choices...
 
CarterKraft said:
Can you help me confirm my suspicions.

I like everything about the Commander XT P except the price...

So is the machines core the same as the Maverick Trail, Sport etc. ?
I am playing around with the idea of buying used Commander Suspension or Super ATV arms and converting my 800 trail to a 62"-64" width.
Yes it's gonna need axles and all sorts of other BS to make it happen but if I find the stuff on Ebay I can get it all somewhat affordably.

I'd like to get some 31" tires and corresponding suspension travel. Probably put forged pistons in it and a turbo to up the power.

Of course I should sell the trail and buy a XT P but if can't get but $7k or $8k for my trail might as well build a "better" machine for my use (altitude) instead of doubling the investment into a new one. I make bad choices...
Click to expand...

No offense but that sounds like a dumb idea. You will not find every part you need used on ebay, especially not at a good price, and will end up buying a bunch of new parts or waiting forever for them to pop up used. The turbo deal will be a whole other can of worms...
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
No offense but that sounds like a dumb idea. You will not find every part you need used on ebay, especially not at a good price, and will end up buying a bunch of new parts or waiting forever for them to pop up used. The turbo deal will be a whole other can of worms...
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure it's a dumb idea but I am partial to dumb ideas:laughing:

I think I can run 30"s with forward A-arms $300 so I just need to find some take off wheels with the right tires and I'll be close to where I want to be.
Turbo is still on the table.
 
CarterKraft said:
I'm pretty sure it's a dumb idea but I am partial to dumb ideas:laughing:

I think I can run 30"s with forward A-arms $300 so I just need to find some take off wheels with the right tires and I'll be close to where I want to be.
Turbo is still on the table.
Click to expand...

Just trade it in and get yourself a KRX. :flipoff2:
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
Just trade it in and get yourself a KRX. :flipoff2:
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I'm not against it...
I don't think I would get a non turbo machine though if I do.
With no experience other wise I'd like to hear what someone with a NA 1000 class machine thought about power above 11k'.
 
CarterKraft said:
I'm not against it...
I don't think I would get a non turbo machine though if I do.
With no experience other wise I'd like to hear what someone with a NA 1000 class machine thought about power above 11k'.
Click to expand...

Nothing you buy is going to make the same power at 11k feet as it would at a lower elevation. A turbo car would have to have the boost upped every X amount of feet to maintain the same HP level and NA just is what it is.

Kraft Werks sells a centrifugal blower for the KRX in case you were wondering.:flipoff2: I bet it sounds pretty cool!
 
CarterKraft said:
Can you help me confirm my suspicions.

I like everything about the Commander XT P except the price...

So is the machines core the same as the Maverick Trail, Sport etc. ?
I am playing around with the idea of buying used Commander Suspension or Super ATV arms and converting my 800 trail to a 62"-64" width.
Yes it's gonna need axles and all sorts of other BS to make it happen but if I find the stuff on Ebay I can get it all somewhat affordably.

I'd like to get some 31" tires and corresponding suspension travel. Probably put forged pistons in it and a turbo to up the power.

Of course I should sell the trail and buy a XT P but if can't get but $7k or $8k for my trail might as well build a "better" machine for my use (altitude) instead of doubling the investment into a new one. I make bad choices...
Click to expand...
The Maverick Trail and new generation Commander are nearly the same machine, all of your chassis pickup points should be the same. But if you have an 800, it's probably the old style I'm guessing? I have no idea if they are similar to the older Maverick but it all sounds like a lot of trouble for a machine that still won't do what you want it to.

Find a dealer to trade yours in at. Even a base model 1000 new generation commander is leaps and bounds ahead of the old style in every way and has way more ability to be upgraded.
 
CarterKraft said:
I'm not against it...
I don't think I would get a non turbo machine though if I do.
With no experience other wise I'd like to hear what someone with a NA 1000 class machine thought about power above 11k'.
Click to expand...
When i took my 1K XP RZR to Taylor Park last year it was noticeably down on power. local elevation at home is 750-1000'. I woudln't want to be racing anyone in CO with mine but then again I am not into going fast. I was there to trail ride.
 
redneckK20s said:
The Maverick Trail and new generation Commander are nearly the same machine, all of your chassis pickup points should be the same. But if you have an 800, it's probably the old style I'm guessing? I have no idea if they are similar to the older Maverick but it all sounds like a lot of trouble for a machine that still won't do what you want it to.

Find a dealer to trade yours in at. Even a base model 1000 new generation commander is leaps and bounds ahead of the old style in every way and has way more ability to be upgraded.
Click to expand...
Mine is the newer style 800R, rated at 75 hp in all the other configurations of the engine.

Wife and I talked about it and 64" X3 would probably be what we get.
If I am upgrading I want to get best suspension possible.

Doesn't rule out the other machines just like I said I'd rather get a forced induction.

When you start up a steep, loose climb at 12k feet and your foot is on the mat it's a unsettling feeling knowing that if shit starts not going well "throttle out" isn't going to be a option.
 
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You are going to drop the same HP with NA or forced induction at elevation. The only way you are maintaining hp at elevation is by upping the boost for every so many feet you climb in elevation. Nothing you buy is going to feel snappy at elevation.
 
A boosted machine will have so much more ass to begin with it won't be as noticeable at elevation. Spend the extra $2k or whatever it is for the 200hp model, it's worth the extra hardware. Only thing about the X3 is the entire front end being single shear mounted but it doesn't cause issues for most.
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
You are going to drop the same HP with NA or forced induction at elevation. The only way you are maintaining hp at elevation is by upping the boost for every so many feet you climb in elevation. Nothing you buy is going to feel snappy at elevation.
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Is it because the turbo doesnt produce extra boost that is not used at lower elevations?
I just made the "assumption" that the turbo could still build the same boost at 10,000' that it would at sea level, depending on the wastegate settings
 
redneckK20s said:
A boosted machine will have so much more ass to begin with it won't be as noticeable at elevation. Spend the extra $2k or whatever it is for the 200hp model, it's worth the extra hardware. Only thing about the X3 is the entire front end being single shear mounted but it doesn't cause issues for most.
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Those frames are shit. Single sheer mounting of suspension components is the least of their problems. I've seen more cracked/broken X3 frames than any other brand SxS. And the cage is complete shit and ranks right up there on the POS scale with the Honda Talon tin foil cages that they finally made thicker this year but are still death traps.
 
I'm in the 8 mph avg trail speed club so shitty frame doesn't bother me.
I can buiild gussets and cages required to address any issues around that.

Likewise I can build suspension (or buy and bolt on) to what I have.

If I could "easily" get 30-31"s on this current machine with decent shocks/springs it would probably be fine for what I am doing.

The boost paradox is interesting.

I think I determined you need to make 5 psi boost to retain the same output at sea level as you would at 11k feet.
Now that's not fair if you are already making 6 psi and then you make zero but I don't see that as possible.

1727368303883.png
 
CarterKraft said:
I'm in the 8 mph avg trail speed club so shitty frame doesn't bother me.
I can buiild gussets and cages required to address any issues around that.

Likewise I can build suspension (or buy and bolt on) to what I have.

If I could "easily" get 30-31"s on this current machine with decent shocks/springs it would probably be fine for what I am doing.

The boost paradox is interesting.

I think I determined you need to make 5 psi boost to retain the same output at sea level as you would at 11k feet.
Now that's not fair if you are already making 6 psi and then you make zero but I don't see that as possible.

1727368303883.png
Click to expand...
If anyone wants to argue about the boost altitude stuff I have covered most of it in my DIY turbo thread, but you are free to tell me I am a dumb ass in there.
irate4x4.com

Lets talk DIY turbos & DynoJet tuning

Wifes rig has the 800cc Rotax V-twin. Because I am a tight ass I didn't want to spring for the extra 200cc at the tune of close to $5k at the time of purchase. At home and sub 1000' of elevation its fine, even plenty of power really even though it is only rated at 50 hp. I think ideal is a...
irate4x4.com irate4x4.com

I took a bunch of data logs from this years trip to try and figure out if I can improve engine power via tuning or if there is nothing left in this platform. This engine in this machine is de-tuned by 25hp, nearly a third due to being a 50" chassis.
I would like to get the extra 25hp at sea level and keep the 50hp at altitude. As is we're around 35 hp at altitude.
 
CarterKraft said:
I'm in the 8 mph avg trail speed club so shitty frame doesn't bother me.
I can buiild gussets and cages required to address any issues around that.

Likewise I can build suspension (or buy and bolt on) to what I have.

If I could "easily" get 30-31"s on this current machine with decent shocks/springs it would probably be fine for what I am doing.

The boost paradox is interesting.

I think I determined you need to make 5 psi boost to retain the same output at sea level as you would at 11k feet.
Now that's not fair if you are already making 6 psi and then you make zero but I don't see that as possible.

1727368303883.png
Click to expand...
I don’t remember the reference or nuance, but I thought I saw something about the watergate sees less atmospheric, so allows an offsetting increase in boost pressure.

At a minimum, no perceptible lack of power from a 172hp X3 at 11k versus 5.5k going from the house.
 
CarterKraft said:
If anyone wants to argue about the boost altitude stuff I have covered most of it in my DIY turbo thread, but you are free to tell me I am a dumb ass in there.
irate4x4.com

Lets talk DIY turbos & DynoJet tuning

Wifes rig has the 800cc Rotax V-twin. Because I am a tight ass I didn't want to spring for the extra 200cc at the tune of close to $5k at the time of purchase. At home and sub 1000' of elevation its fine, even plenty of power really even though it is only rated at 50 hp. I think ideal is a...
irate4x4.com irate4x4.com

I took a bunch of data logs from this years trip to try and figure out if I can improve engine power via tuning or if there is nothing left in this platform. This engine in this machine is de-tuned by 25hp, nearly a third due to being a 50" chassis.
I would like to get the extra 25hp at sea level and keep the 50hp at altitude. As is we're around 35 hp at altitude.
Click to expand...
How is the wastegate managed?
If you have the ECU driving the gate with a MAC valve and a baro sensor, you can do pretty much whatever TF you want.

Boost target vs Baro is like tuning 101
 
Bebop said:
How is the wastegate managed?
If you have the ECU driving the gate with a MAC valve and a baro sensor, you can do pretty much whatever TF you want.

Boost target vs Baro is like tuning 101
Click to expand...
I think stock is just boost referenced spring pot.
edit: maybe not, this suggests there is a electronic regulator OEM.
1727374327752.png





"I think" because boosted it's still gonna make boost and thus not subject to the 3% hp reduction per 1000 ft altitude gain.
In the chart below it had to make "UP" the 5 psi lost from going up to 10k ft.
to do so it needed to burn 22 lbs more air.

From Garrets site
www.garrettmotion.com

Turbocharging At Elevation

A naturally aspirated combustion engine will lose 3% of its power for every 1,000 ft of elevation gain. Add a Garrett turbocharger to minimize the loss
www.garrettmotion.com www.garrettmotion.com

1727373867092.png
 
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CarterKraft said:
If anyone wants to argue about the boost altitude stuff I have covered most of it in my DIY turbo thread, but you are free to tell me I am a dumb ass in there.
irate4x4.com

Lets talk DIY turbos & DynoJet tuning

Wifes rig has the 800cc Rotax V-twin. Because I am a tight ass I didn't want to spring for the extra 200cc at the tune of close to $5k at the time of purchase. At home and sub 1000' of elevation its fine, even plenty of power really even though it is only rated at 50 hp. I think ideal is a...
irate4x4.com irate4x4.com

I took a bunch of data logs from this years trip to try and figure out if I can improve engine power via tuning or if there is nothing left in this platform. This engine in this machine is de-tuned by 25hp, nearly a third due to being a 50" chassis.
I would like to get the extra 25hp at sea level and keep the 50hp at altitude. As is we're around 35 hp at altitude.
Click to expand...

What are they doing to get the extra 25hp out of the other machines?
 
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