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Soft shackles and kinetic ropes

arse_sidewards said:
People who spend their time on the parts of the internet where brain dead clipboard and safety vest thinking dominate hear that big heavy shit at the end of a rope is bad so they replace the D-ring with a soft shackle not understanding what they're doing and then they buy a kinetic rope rated for a much bigger vehicle because "stronger is better" resulting in even more shock load on the soft shackle.

Because it makes the ring mount worse for use with a D-ring and the kind of people who are replacing D-rings with soft shackles "because safety" are exactly the kind of people who deserve their faces caved in with a strap. Just use the $10 D-ring in the mount. If the mount comes off the truck it won't matter if there's a D-ring on it too.


Surely that has nothing to do with the ambulance chasing lawyers. Do you believe people use oil filters to catch gun cleaning oil and garbage too?


Force is what breaks shit. End of story. KE is what liars use when they they're trying to scare an audience of idiots.

You're getting way less force over a much longer period of time with a hard pull on a kinetic rope than you're getting from a much more mild bump on a strap or cable. And anyone who's ever used one knows it.
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The strap used in that recovery does look far too big for that vehicle.

Most rated for that size vehicle are what 5/8-3/4"? That one looks larger than 1".
 
Winchested said:
Any 60-90 degree bend on these is considered sharp. If the edges come to a point. In industrial rigging we use "softeners" on all corner edges of any rigging, even with wire rope slings. It's incredibly easy to break wire rope slings on sharp edges too.
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Marine rigger here. Been using soft shackles and rigging with Dyneema since 07-08. This is the most accurate statement I've seen on this thread. They do average strength on these things because it's a synthetic fiber. It's a plastic that is drawn through a dye and woven into place. There is no way to guarantee the properties of every single fiber so they come up with average break strength in a straight line pull. When you add twists and turns to this stuff it dramatically reduces the strength, 90 degree bends are about half strength. The crushing forces where the bend meets the knot don't help either. I use these Antal dog bones and all sorts of other methods when I see fit. Compare that shackle to the size of the rope. They should be close if you're doing full yanks. That looks like a 3/8" softy and a 1" rope. Somebody's brain is N/A if they think those two should be used together.

Kinda funny that for all those years we used 3" and 4" snatch straps then got away from all that because somebody was gonna die when their trailer hitch got yanked off (it's for the children) and went to proper winches with blocks and pulleys, now some clowns start yanking and selling "kinetic ropes" on the Youtube and here we are yanking stuff apart again and wondering why straps are going through windshields??
 
KacksterK5 said:
Marine rigger here. Been using soft shackles and rigging with Dyneema since 07-08. This is the most accurate statement I've seen on this thread. They do average strength on these things because it's a synthetic fiber. It's a plastic that is drawn through a dye and woven into place. There is no way to guarantee the properties of every single fiber so they come up with average break strength in a straight line pull. When you add twists and turns to this stuff it dramatically reduces the strength, 90 degree bends are about half strength. The crushing forces where the bend meets the knot don't help either. I use these Antal dog bones and all sorts of other methods when I see fit. Compare that shackle to the size of the rope. They should be close if you're doing full yanks. That looks like a 3/8" softy and a 1" rope. Somebody's brain is N/A if they think those two should be used together.

Kinda funny that for all those years we used 3" and 4" snatch straps then got away from all that because somebody was gonna die when their trailer hitch got yanked off (it's for the children) and went to proper winches with blocks and pulleys, now some clowns start yanking and selling "kinetic ropes" on the Youtube and here we are yanking stuff apart again and wondering why straps are going through windshields??
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2 best posts yet:beer:
 
OK FINE. I'll get my d-rings unseized and just use those for the kinetic rope.:flipoff2:

I did look at my soft shackles and noticed a bit of wear so I will get some replacements coming for winch duty.

Would doubling up soft shackles at each connection be viable for use with the kinetic rope, assuming no sharp edges?
 
MigGunslinger said:
OK FINE. I'll get my d-rings unseized and just use those for the kinetic rope.:flipoff2:

I did look at my soft shackles and noticed a bit of wear so I will get some replacements coming for winch duty.

Would doubling up soft shackles at each connection be viable for use with the kinetic rope, assuming no sharp edges?
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Or you could use a single shackle in the padeye hole and never worry about it going ballistic.
 
MigGunslinger said:
OK FINE. I'll get my d-rings unseized and just use those for the kinetic rope.:flipoff2:

I did look at my soft shackles and noticed a bit of wear so I will get some replacements coming for winch duty.

Would doubling up soft shackles at each connection be viable for use with the kinetic rope, assuming no sharp edges?
Click to expand...
Only one takes the load at a time. Just get the right size stuff and don't put it on sharp edges.

"cheap" soft shackles is relative. It's the same knot tied by a small asian child from Amazon land or Custom splice. As long as it's real Dyneema it's the same strength.

Nothing has changed here, the same rules apply as they always have, don't hook anything soft on anything sharp. Tow straps or "kinetic ropes" as the kids call them these days, always went on tow hooks, metal shackles went through metal tow point holes on the front of Toyota crossmembers. You wouldn't hang your good jacket on a razor blade right?
 
KacksterK5 said:
Marine rigger here. Been using soft shackles and rigging with Dyneema since 07-08. This is the most accurate statement I've seen on this thread. They do average strength on these things because it's a synthetic fiber. It's a plastic that is drawn through a dye and woven into place. There is no way to guarantee the properties of every single fiber so they come up with average break strength in a straight line pull. When you add twists and turns to this stuff it dramatically reduces the strength, 90 degree bends are about half strength. The crushing forces where the bend meets the knot don't help either. I use these Antal dog bones and all sorts of other methods when I see fit. Compare that shackle to the size of the rope. They should be close if you're doing full yanks. That looks like a 3/8" softy and a 1" rope. Somebody's brain is N/A if they think those two should be used together.

Kinda funny that for all those years we used 3" and 4" snatch straps then got away from all that because somebody was gonna die when their trailer hitch got yanked off (it's for the children) and went to proper winches with blocks and pulleys, now some clowns start yanking and selling "kinetic ropes" on the Youtube and here we are yanking stuff apart again and wondering why straps are going through windshields??
Click to expand...
We use Dyneema in the film biz like it’s going out of style. It’s perfect for a dead man in car crashes. Testing days we’ll use it over and over unless it looks damaged, when filming it gets used once and swapped out for new. I have hundreds of feet of used 5/8 and 3/4 that we can’t trust!

3/16 and 1/4 is used to fly people with computerized winches and that gets changed almost daily. It’s shocking to see hanks piled 3’ high on pallets hit the dumpster at the end of a show.

Nobody remembers the stuff you did right, let a car get away or drop a stunt guy and you’re famous.
:lmao:
 
arse_sidewards said:
Surely that has nothing to do with the ambulance chasing lawyers. Do you believe people use oil filters to catch gun cleaning oil and garbage too?


Force is what breaks shit. End of story. KE is what liars use when they they're trying to scare an audience of idiots.

You're getting way less force over a much longer period of time with a hard pull on a kinetic rope than you're getting from a much more mild bump on a strap or cable. And anyone who's ever used one knows it.
Click to expand...

It has to do some with lawyers for sure, but is also has more to do with how kinetic energy ropes are sized in general.

5mph ( 5.5ish mph actually but round numbers are easier for people usually ) is the point at which the vehicle will generate a force equal to the vehicle mass when it hits the end of the rope. Operating the rope in that range that it will get the most cycles before it starts to show long term fatigue or plastic deformation. It keeps the rope in that happy 'elastic' performance zone.

Regardless of what you think, understanding how Kinetic Energy works is important in how ropes are sized vs used regardless of what the impulse is ( how you define that period of time which makes the 'hit' feel soft vs hard ).

You can try to maximize that soft impulse feeling by using a smaller diameter rope, but you will decrease its service life AND narrow up your margin of safety as far as velocity goes. On the flip side, you can completely overkill the size of the rope to maximize life and safety margin, but you will end up with a system that feels anything but 'soft' to the operator and will likely break all the attachment points upstream.

What the industry has generally settled on is sizing the ropes/straps MBS to be 4-5:1 to the vehicle mass doing the recovering. (5k vehicle, 20-25k MBS Rope)

I'm not sure who pee'd in your bran flakes, but this isn't my first rodeo and have been using KER ropes and straps for decades.
 
www.spartanrope.com

Spartan Kinetic Recovery Rope

Kinetic recovery ropes are an important off-road recovery tool to always have with you. Spartan Ropes are designed and tested for off-road use in snow, mud, sand, and any other conditions your adventures take you!
www.spartanrope.com www.spartanrope.com

This is the rope, been hooked to it a few times. Pretty much all of us are running 1" ropes as 7/8" rope is rated for 7500 lb and broncos are in the 5,500+ lb category. Also most of us have gone to 30ft ropes which seem seem to come in the 1" flavor more. This is just normal for snow wheeling. Also the bigger tug helps with getting the vehicle out, without getting stuck yourself. Last time we had to winch between the two vehicles with the tensioned recovery rope. Who ever gets unstuck first keeps on yanking!

Your looking at a 33,000 lb rope hooked to a 45,000 to 60,000 lb soft shackle. 5/8 D ring is 70,000 lbs? Bumper made with chinese steel maybe 20,000 lbs? Really at this point it the edge and cheap shackle but
 
Mieser said:
You learn to retire ropes before they fail. They do have a service life.

My preferred method is to measure the rope after it has relaxed for 24hrs. If the rope is showing more than a 10% gain over its original constructed length, it has enough plastic deformation that it should be retired even if it still 'looks' good on the outside. This typically means that the rope has been loaded to about the last 90% of its breaking strength at least a few times. There is permanent 'plastic' deformation of the rope that isn't going to show as damage. All rope should also be inspected for all the normal things.....eye slip, necking, cuts, etc.
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Thinking about it, I wonder if this tidbit is included with the paperwork that accompanied the ropes in question...
Should be.
 
If it matters at all, the Bronco-side bumper clevis mount broke before the Jeep side soft shackle did… clevis sheared off from the impact of the very hefty pull (which by the way threw everything in the Bronco around and knocked the occupants off balance). When the Clevis sheared, it jammed into the bumpers outer shell, trying to pull it off and twisting the bumper in the process. Only the massive, grade 8 bolts still in the Clevis, prevented it from flying out and going into the Jeep. Of course once the bumper stopped giving, all the force went to the Jeep side and the soft shackle was up to bat and failed.

So, for an idea of how hard that pull was: it sheared a Clevis bolted into steel, pulled the two bolts out of the threads they were bolted too, twisted the frame horn and twisted a bumper. Then after all that carnage, had enough force left to rip the soft shackle at the loop around the knot and sent the kinetic flying back into the Bronco, through the windshield and kept going behind the Bronco. So much force I have no doubt a simple blanket would have helped in the least bit. I have never seen that kind of force from even videos.

Not saying the setup was right. But something has to be said for how hard that pull was.
 

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Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend by the name of Common Sense who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He will be remembered as having cultivated such valued lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm and that life isn't always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not kids, are in charge).

His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch, and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student only worsened his condition. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student but could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Finally, Common sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense finally gave up the ghost after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, spilled it in her lap, and was awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by two stepbrothers; My Rights and Ima Whiner.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
 
Hooligan said:
So…3 pages in and the moral is that no strap or rope or wire rope should be subject to sharp edges.

That is why recovery should be done with chains! :flipoff2::stirthepot:
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There's a level of retard to not attain to either. That level of trust... Maybe 5 extra minutes with a shovel woulda saved this guy a trip to the ER and a hefty Heli chopper fee.
 
Snacktime said:
www.spartanrope.com

Spartan Kinetic Recovery Rope

Kinetic recovery ropes are an important off-road recovery tool to always have with you. Spartan Ropes are designed and tested for off-road use in snow, mud, sand, and any other conditions your adventures take you!
www.spartanrope.com www.spartanrope.com

This is the rope, been hooked to it a few times. Pretty much all of us are running 1" ropes as 7/8" rope is rated for 7500 lb and broncos are in the 5,500+ lb category. Also most of us have gone to 30ft ropes which seem seem to come in the 1" flavor more. This is just normal for snow wheeling. Also the bigger tug helps with getting the vehicle out, without getting stuck yourself. Last time we had to winch between the two vehicles with the tensioned recovery rope. Who ever gets unstuck first keeps on yanking!

Your looking at a 33,000 lb rope hooked to a 45,000 to 60,000 lb soft shackle. 5/8 D ring is 70,000 lbs? Bumper made with chinese steel maybe 20,000 lbs? Really at this point it the edge and cheap shackle but
Click to expand...
a 60k soft shackle is 1 1/6 inch Dyneema.
 
Soft shackles are great for connecting 2 straps or when you have to hook to tube or other less conventional tow points.
 
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