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Soft shackles and kinetic ropes

I wonder if similar happens when the rope just breaks? I have a Bubba rope they gave me on the 2011UA. Been used plenty over the years.
 
total newb said:
"Looked like this afterward. Before it looked fine, had the sleeve on it and only had normal, very minor fraying."



And that right there, is where you fucked up.
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Imho fraying=dog toy

Also, mine don’t fit through a D-ring hook, ones rated at UTV weight fit easily. Make sure you have the right soft shackle.

Edit: mine are a bitch to fit through…
 
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For me the rope going through the windshield is the issue. For the life of me can't figure how it went that far through. I know they store energy but was always under the impression they fail mildly.

Shit how many ropes has Matt Offroad killed? He is the definition of Miss use and worst we have seen is a mirror on his F350?

I have been a kinetic rope user since 09 and I a m a full send user! just replaced my 09 kinetic rope a month ago due to lack of stretch and some bumper damage. popo_patty I plan to sling shot you soon as your wife says your out of time out.
 
Everything has it's place and a soft shackle on the end of a kinetic rope isn't one of those places IMHO. I'm not surprised it left loose or the damage it caused. Hopefully the driver is all good.

As far as soft shackles go they are great for some things and absolutely have their place. Quick pull to flop a rig back on it's wheels it's almost always perfect for a quick hook up to anything round.
 
blakes said:
I wonder if similar happens when the rope just breaks? I have a Bubba rope they gave me on the 2011UA. Been used plenty over the years.
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I'd think they would typically break in the middle unless you really let the eye get fucked up.

If it broke in the middle, it wouldn't have the wieght on the end to go through a windshield.
 
I am a poser/idiot that uses soft shackles to connect to the d-rings rust locked into my bumper and uses them for kinetic ropes.

I’ll need to reevaluate my setup.

The kinetic ropes work great in the snow and make the whole thing a lot less violent but that probably makes people feel too comfortable yeeting each other at full throttle.
 
Snacktime said:
For me the rope going through the windshield is the issue. For the life of me can't figure how it went that far through. I know they store energy but was always under the impression they fail mildly.

Shit how many ropes has Matt Offroad killed? He is the definition of Miss use and worst we have seen is a mirror on his F350?

I have been a kinetic rope user since 09 and I a m a full send user! just replaced my 09 kinetic rope a month ago due to lack of stretch and some bumper damage. popo_patty I plan to sling shot you soon as your wife says your out of time out.
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The magic of editing.
He sells them , thus if they are showing them killing stuff they won't sell many?!
 
YotaAtieToo said:
You guys saying no more than 5' of slack have obviously never done much deep snow wheeling. Lots of times, just light bumps do nothing and will sometimes make it worse.

If the soft shackle really was in good shape before hand, it's definitely a weird chain of events. How many times did they try to pull them out like that before it failed?

Did he actually have the sleeve through the eye on the bumper? Because judging by the Pic, it looks like he just got the loop end of the shackle through the bumper eye enough to put the knot though.

Soft shackles are just like anything, if you're retarded, they suck. Use them properly and they're great. Personally, I carry both. I've used soft shackles a ton and like them a lot. Same here

I've never used a kinetic rope personally, mostly cause $$$, I've heard some guys say they don't work well for snow because they don't hit hard enough.

It's weird to me that the end of the rope was heavy and hard enough to go through a windshield. +1 for regular tow straps I guess?
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I'm one of those guys recommending no more than 5'. Why? Because I teach newbies on a regular basis and until they really know and understand what they are doing and the risks they take, you have to be overly cautious. Have I done full hammer hit it pulls? Yes. Have I done deep snow wheeling? Yes. Have I been successful? Yes.
Have I seen damage? Yes. All the way to bumpers being pulled off and backs of vehicles smashed in. Especially on clapped out vehicles where they don't realize their frame is rotted out. No recovery is SAFE. The best we can do is be careful, mitigate the risk and use best practices.

I am also a fan of soft shackles. I think they have their place. But certainly not looped through a D-ring lug and then have a 20' running start. To me, the real culprit is looping it to a sharp edge.

I'm right there with you on kinetic ropes. I'm and old school strap guy and I find that with ropes, they are too stretchy and hard to get a feel for the pull. With a kinetic strap, I can do a light tug, then go harder and anticipate the reaction. I have never been able to do this with a rope and honestly, avoid doing recoveries with them.
 
Scary. I've been thinking about getting some soft shackles for the exact opposite reason - take some mass out of the whole setup.

Was the soft shackle a good brand, or an Amazon special? There's a whole lot of difference in ropes and construction of soft shackles. Casey LaDelle did a video about attaching a winch line extension a while back, and stressed how important it is to make sure the strands aren't twisted. I doubt the 5 year old Chinese girls care much about that when making them.
 
I am big on the cheap soft shackles. Even the cheap soft shackles are nearly twice the minimum breaking strength of the winch line and Bungie cord. The breaking strength most of the time exceed the pull point strength. Rather have a failure of a soft product than flying metal of any kind.

Like above, you see more people attaching them to weaker points. Hell I destroyed a plate bumper a month ago lol.

Maybe it's time to hang the Bungie cord up and go back to the painfully slow winching of the 2000s? One of my favorite parts of snow wheeling is the Bungie cord, sling shot engaged!
 
I’m a soft shackle user, I love them but yea I don believe their ratings when you are splitting the shackle to push that big ass knot through.

But also important is looking at that dudes process, if possible don’t face the stuck vehicle while pulling, put something weighty on the rope to absorb the energy, and maybe have the driver of the stuck rig duck down so he’s not in the line of fire. In the hierarchy of safety engineering controls (like using the proper equipment ) and process controls (don’t stand in the firing line) are on there
 
Soft rigging in hard edge holes is a real issue in this sport/industry....

Pulling even the best soft shackle against a hard edge hole will significantly lower its strength and life, it doesn't matter what guard material you have on it. I would really like to see the aftermarket start adding at least a 1/4" radius to every recovery point.

Generally, Kinetic recovery is one of the most dangerous techniques we use. The forces generated are quite amazing and need to be respected. Most rope manufacturers and instructors will tell you that ropes are sized to support the recovering vehicle moving at 5mph max. Kinetic energy is not linear, it is exponential, be very very careful adding speed into this systems. If you are not being effective at about 5mph ( just a fast walk ), please use more time on the shovel vs just adding more speed.

If anyone has any other questions, please let me know.

Edit-note: If the soft shackle failed in the noose before the rope ( especially if the body was through a hard edge hole ), it was a crap soft shackle. Even a great quality 1" nylon kinetic recovery rope is going to 'only' have a MBS of about 33k lbs.
 
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elbekko said:
Scary. I've been thinking about getting some soft shackles for the exact opposite reason - take some mass out of the whole setup.

Was the soft shackle a good brand, or an Amazon special? There's a whole lot of difference in ropes and construction of soft shackles. Casey LaDelle did a video about attaching a winch line extension a while back, and stressed how important it is to make sure the strands aren't twisted. I doubt the 5 year old Chinese girls care much about that when making them.
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I have custom spice, soft shackles. I picked them up on one of his holiday sales last year. They still are fairly heavy for what it’s worth.

Also, Todd has supported the sport for years. And you can usually find him at most events.
 
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I have a question.

How do they rate/test these soft shackles? If I'm not mistaken, they only list "Breaking strength" and no safe work load limit, or the other ratings you normally see on rigging.

Do they put them together (make a circle) and pull on them as a completed unit, or do they pull on a straight length of it? Or is that "breaking strength" number given from the rope they use to make the soft shackle?

Just giving breaking strength is like saying,"It'll work fine until it doesn't".
 
gt1guy said:
I have a question.

How do they rate/test these soft shackles? If I'm not mistaken, they only list "Breaking strength" and no safe work load limit, or the other ratings you normally see on rigging.

Do they put them together (make a circle) and pull on them as a completed unit, or do they pull on a straight length of it? Or is that "breaking strength" number given from the rope they use to make the soft shackle?

Just giving breaking strength is like saying,"It'll work fine until it doesn't".
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I can't speak for everyone else, but my soft shackles are batch tested with an XX sample size to come up with a Minimum Breaking Strength by the manufacturer. As long as the material and construction remains the same, the same number can continue to be used. If a design or material change is made, they are retested. Generally, honest manufacturers error on the safe side.

The shackles are tested in the 'loop' configuration around a metal pin in the test cell typically.

Personally, I would much rather see an MBS, or honestly an ABS ( Average Breaking Strength) over a known sample size, vs trying to put some random non-standard de-rated WLL. In the drag recovery world, there is no 'standard' for WLL, and the concept of using one from overhead lifting like a 4-6:1 FoS falls apart pretty quickly. Nobody is engineering recovery points to support loads like that.....and nobody is going to run their winch lines at 4-6:1 either. To be frank, most winch manufactures are under-equipping their winches as far as line strength with steel and synthetic. It isn't uncommon to see 12k winches coming with 3/8" line from who knows what which is probably not even a 1.5:1 FoS when you consider all the details.

Eventually, I think the drag recovery industry will settle on something in the 2-3:1 FoS range if they could stop infighting about all the details. A WLL won't stop anyone from abusing, or making poor decisions on how a product is going to be used. People don't even generally understand how much force is being generated in their rigging, they just pull till something fails and then try something else.
 
Clb said:
The magic of editing.
He sells them , thus if they are showing them killing stuff they won't sell many?!
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You learn to retire ropes before they fail. They do have a service life.

My preferred method is to measure the rope after it has relaxed for 24hrs. If the rope is showing more than a 10% gain over its original constructed length, it has enough plastic deformation that it should be retired even if it still 'looks' good on the outside. This typically means that the rope has been loaded to about the last 90% of its breaking strength at least a few times. There is permanent 'plastic' deformation of the rope that isn't going to show as damage. All rope should also be inspected for all the normal things.....eye slip, necking, cuts, etc.
 
I used a Bubba Rope 7/8” soft shackle for the first time through a recovery point designed for a hard shackle just to pull a truck a few feet up my driveway and it was visibly damaged immediately, I was shocked but then not surprised when I looked at the recovery point more carefully and felt the edges which weren’t “sharp”, just not very rounded.
 
Glad driver is good, lots to learn from these instances...

The YouTube channel hownot2 is a great channel to watch to see rock climbing gear destructively tested with kinetic loads, there is A LOT of surprises on that channel with gear that we sometimes use, webbing, shackles, soft shackles dynema ropes etc.
 
holdmypocket said:
I used a Bubba Rope 7/8” soft shackle for the first time through a recovery point designed for a hard shackle just to pull a truck a few feet up my driveway and it was visibly damaged immediately, I was shocked but then not surprised when I looked at the recovery point more carefully and felt the edges which weren’t “sharp”, just not very rounded.
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Any 60-90 degree bend on these is considered sharp. If the edges come to a point. In industrial rigging we use "softeners" on all corner edges of any rigging, even with wire rope slings. It's incredibly easy to break wire rope slings on sharp edges too.
 
Dirtyjed said:
Anyone ever had a soft shackle get cut and turn a kinetic rope into a missile?
Had a situation go down today and wondering if this is a common thing.
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Yes. I have sent 40 feet of kinetic through the radiator of an F250. I’ve broke lots of that shit doing extractions.

Never make a post about it because every time I’ve never had anything weighted draped over the line.
 
Well at least most of what I have is from JM Rigging and 1 from Factor55 which list MBS and WLL on their websites.
 
total newb said:
I dont understand the soft shackle craze at all. Significantly lighter duty than a steel shackle and obviously weaker than your rope.
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People who spend their time on the parts of the internet where brain dead clipboard and safety vest thinking dominate hear that big heavy shit at the end of a rope is bad so they replace the D-ring with a soft shackle not understanding what they're doing and then they buy a kinetic rope rated for a much bigger vehicle because "stronger is better" resulting in even more shock load on the soft shackle.
Weasel said:
I don't know why manufactors of the dring don't run a radius around the edge. I did a 3/4 on all mine on the crawler for the soft rocks.
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Because it makes the ring mount worse for use with a D-ring and the kind of people who are replacing D-rings with soft shackles "because safety" are exactly the kind of people who deserve their faces caved in with a strap. Just use the $10 D-ring in the mount. If the mount comes off the truck it won't matter if there's a D-ring on it too.

Mieser said:
Most rope manufacturers and instructors will tell you that ropes are sized to support the recovering vehicle moving at 5mph max.
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Surely that has nothing to do with the ambulance chasing lawyers. Do you believe people use oil filters to catch gun cleaning oil and garbage too?
Mieser said:
Kinetic energy is not linear,
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Force is what breaks shit. End of story. KE is what liars use when they they're trying to scare an audience of idiots.

You're getting way less force over a much longer period of time with a hard pull on a kinetic rope than you're getting from a much more mild bump on a strap or cable. And anyone who's ever used one knows it.
 
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